What was the Inquisition?

[Mannyfit75]

Let me guess, you get your “facts” from Jack Chick?

Try this question on for size–how could the Inquisition kill 10-50 million people in the areas it operated when the total population of those areas never exceeded 15 million until 1650?–and in an era of muscle-powered weapons, NO mass transportation, etc?

newbiew admit he is Anti-Catholic. Maybe he should change is profile and add Anti-Catholic.

He believes any Anti-Catholic material from Jack Chick to Lorraine Boetner’s Roman Catholicism to be a reliable source. . That is where the phrase Catholics invented this doctrine, etc… etc…

 

[Redbandito]

But we live in a real world, not a world of fantasy. The Inquisition happened, it was not a good thing. Persecution of Catholics by the Anglican Church happened, again it was not a good thing. Americans, and others, enslaved black people and treated Native Americans shamefully The English oppressed the Irish. The Germans started the Second World War. History is history. The basic facts are (usually) not controverted, although the meaning and interpretation of those facts is often controverted and reinterpreted by every new generation of historians. I am an American of the South as well as someone from the Anglican Tradition and I just admitted to a number of very serious mistakes and sins on the part of my heritage. Catholics should be able to do the same about the Inquisition instead of being so darn defensive about it.

RR, that is so easy to say from a Protestant perspective. The fact of the matter is, what we are admitting to is the very thing in question. I admit guilt on the part of individuals in the Church where there is guilt. That does not, in any way, tarnish the Church for me. Yet, when I admit this, many Protestants use this to their advantage to attack the Church with. Thus, how can we not be defensive. Protestants (especially in this country) have made it their mission to attack Catholics. Not all Protestants, of course. There are many loving Evangelicals with whom we have excellent dialogues. However, there is a large percentage that use every opportunity to take a pot shot at Catholicism. I am not going to give them the ammunition. Sorry if you can’t understand that. However, you admitting the guilt of Anglicans will not draw near the attention as me admitting in such guilt in Catholicism. That’s a fact.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why do you spread lies that 50 million where killed. Is not Satan the King of Lies?

If you go way back to my post #34 you will see that I stated from one of the sources the exact number of people processed by the spanish inquisition.
This does not mean they were all burned. Only about ten percent were actually killed but the rest were tortured. Is this a fair statement?
If so your # of 39,000 burned at the stake would be in line with the total number of those processed, agreed?

40,000 is a most accurate I found so far but no where in any Inquistion source states that 400,000 to 50 million were killed during the Inquistion.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

BTW, recently finished reading the 1997 revision of The Spanish Inquistion: A Historical Revision by Henry Kamen

Kamen is an observant Jew

Kamen works for the Spanish Historical agency and has acess to the actual records–numerous, copious, very well documented

Kamen estimates from 1480-1800 the SI had killed circa 2200-2700 victims

Argue those numbers from documetation–otherwise, get out of here.

That said, pray for the victims and their persecutors–even with the numbers vastly reduced from the lies, it was still no Christian

 

[Redbandito]

I did go to Amazon. However after reading all the reviews of the book, the reviewers are split 8 to 4 on whether the author is unbiased in his writing. Some say he is very accurate. Others say he whitewashed and downplayed the severity of the issue.
Any other suggestions.
Seems like protestants inflate the atrocities and catholics deflate same.
Maybe truth is somewhere in the middle.

Well, you have read a very one-sided Protestant source on the Inquisition. Even if Peters is a “whitewasher” (which I didn’t get at all from that book), you would have at least have gotten the response to such accusations. Is that not fair? Afterward, you could make an informed decision on where exactly in the “middle” the truth rests.

 

[newbie1234]

Are we all in agreement that 40,000 people were burned alive during the Spanish inquisition?
According to Mannyfit’s numbers.

I am willing to apologize about my dastardly retelling of a lie.
And numbers that I stated of between 10 million and 50 million people either tortured or killed during the 605 years of the inquisition is inaccurate. Mea kulpa.
I was just restating what I read and heard from some anti catholic websites.
But from the very truthful Manny we have an accurate number of roughly 40,000 burned at the stake during the spanish inquisition.
Can we move on?

 

[Mannyfit75]

adding the total in both the Medieval and Spanish Inquistions total about 44,000 to 54,000 not 50 millions.

 

[Redbandito]

Are we all in agreement that 40,000 people were burned alive during the Spanish inquisition?
According to Mannyfit’s numbers.

I am willing to apologize about my dastardly retelling of a lie.
And numbers that I stated of between 10 million and 50 million people either tortured or killed during the 605 years of the inquisition is inaccurate. Mea kulpa.
I was just restating what I read and heard from some anti catholic websites.
But from the very truthful Manny we have an accurate number of roughly 40,000 burned at the stake during the spanish inquisition.
Can we move on?

No. I don’t agree. I believe the number killed in the SI was much closer to between 2000-3000. Still a significant number, but not 40,000.

 

[Redbandito]

adding the total in both the Medieval and Spanish Inquistions total about 44,000 to 54,000 not 50 millions.

Manny, I believe Newbie has admitted that his original number was distorted.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are we all in agreement that 40,000 people were burned alive during the Spanish inquisition?
According to Mannyfit’s numbers.

I am willing to apologize about my dastardly retelling of a lie.
And numbers that I stated of between 10 million and 50 million people either tortured or killed during the 605 years of the inquisition is inaccurate. Mea kulpa.
I was just restating what I read and heard from some anti catholic websites.
But from the very truthful Manny we have an accurate number of roughly 40,000 burned at the stake during the spanish inquisition.
Can we move on?

From my estimate 44,000 to 54,000 were killed. If want you to seek the true find the sources that are not so bias against the Catholic Church.

I had to look over Wikipedia and Jewish Virtual Library to prove my point.

Lastly, I apologize for my uncharitable posts. I get really angry when someone lie about the Church, especially if they claim a lie as a fact. 50 million is not realistic because there were not that many people that live during that time… Europe would have to be almost barren… during that time, Catholics outnumbers many of the heretics. So if the number were true, Catholics would be the one killed.

 

[newbie1234]

BTW, recently finished reading the 1997 revision of The Spanish Inquistion: A Historical Revision by Henry Kamen

Kamen is an observant Jew

Kamen works for the Spanish Historical agency and has acess to the actual records–numerous, copious, very well documented

Kamen estimates from 1480-1800 the SI had killed circa 2200-2700 victims

Argue those numbers from documetation–otherwise, get out of here.

That said, pray for the victims and their persecutors–even with the numbers vastly reduced from the lies, it was still no Christian

Do you agree with brother Manny’s post #174 that there were roughly 40,000 burned at the stake during SI.
After all he is a catholic.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I also like to add that there were a large number of Europeans being killed not by the Inquistion itself but by the plague.

 

[newbie1234]

No. I don’t agree. I believe the number killed in the SI was much closer to between 2000-3000. Still a significant number, but not 40,000.

So are you accusing honest brother Manny of spreading anti catholic propaganda?
His jewish source seems unbiased.
I am willing to concede my mistake. I will defend Manny’s honest investigation.I am willing to accept his numbers. Surely he doesn’t have an anti catholic agenda.

 

[Redbandito]

Do you agree with brother Manny’s post #174 that there were roughly 40,000 burned at the stake during SI.
After all he is a catholic.

I think it’s quite clear based on the post you are responding to here, he does not believe that. And the fact that Manny is Catholic and found a source that says 40,000, certainly does not mean that we should all just accept it. I don’t accept a number I don’t believe to be true.

 

[newbie1234]

I think it’s quite clear based on the post you are responding to here, he does not believe that. And the fact that Manny is Catholic and found a source that says 40,000, certainly does not mean that we should all just accept it. I don’t accept a number I don’t believe to be true.

But would you accept the fact that there a a bunch of numbers out there on this internet. Some are inflated. Some are deflated. Some are accurrate. But no one here knows the truth. And just as Manny innocently restated something he found, I did exactly the same thing.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, the ‘40,000’ number is not backed up by other independent sources (that was from the Jewish virtual library). Other sources have much lesser numbers, not greater numbers.

In the great number of posts over a very short period of time, it is easy to get confused and to make ‘little’ errors, and then it is very hard to go back and find (and correct) the error.

So no, we aren’t going with ‘40,000’ burned in the Spanish Inquisition. I believe that we have more sources to explore. We will never have an ‘exact’ number.

Further, even if the number were all the way there (which is doubtful), you still, newbie, haven’t seemed to grasp that:

1. This was not “The Catholic Church killing people”.
2. This was not an illegal action, or even (by the standards of the time) immoral. 1500 A.D. is not 2006 A.D. “killing” is wrong, but a government especially in difficult times can exact a ‘death penalty’; that is not killing by definition. You may not agree with you; you may argue indeed that a death penalty is unjust, but you can’t retrovert and say that because YOU believe it made those who enforced it immoral or wrong hundreds of years ago. This is the GOVERNMENT who executed heretics, just as it was the GOVERNMENT who executed those guilty of treason, or other capital crimes. If heresy is not a capital crime today, it was then.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think it’s quite clear based on the post you are responding to here, he does not believe that. And the fact that Manny is Catholic and found a source that says 40,000, certainly does not mean that we should all just accept it. I don’t accept a number I don’t believe to be true.

Realistically speaking, I caluculated the Medieval Inquistion and the Spanish Inquistion.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

Spanish Inquistion killed 467 people (burned at the stake). 700 were bured.

467 + 700=1,167

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

31,912 burned
1,800 were bured.
total =33,712

67,424 is the estimate…

Since the records are missing regarding the number of deaths, most historicans aren’t sure about the exact number. Realistically speaking 67,424 is only estimated guess.

I don’t think 50 million is an accurate number of people who died. 44,000-60,000 is about more accurate…

 

[newbie1234]

Realistically speaking, I caluculated the Medieval Inquistion and the Spanish Inquistion.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

Spanish Inquistion killed 467 people (burned at the stake). 700 were bured.

467 + 700=1,167

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

31,912 burned
1,800 were bured.
total =33,712

67,424 is the estimate…

Since the records are missing regarding the number of deaths, most historicans aren’t sure about the exact number. Realistically speaking 67,424 is only estimated guess.

I don’t think 50 million is an accurate number of people who died. 44,000-60,000 is about more accurate…

The number of people burned is roughly ten percent of the people tried and tortured.

 

[Mannyfit75]

From wikipedia,

The historian Hernando del Pulgar, contemporary of Ferdinand and Isabella, estimated that the Inquisition had burned at the stake 2,000 people and reconciled another 15,000 by 1490 (just one decade after the Inquisition began).[37]

The first quantitative estimates of the number processed and executed by the Spanish Inquisition were offered by Juan Antonio Llorente, who was the General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801 and published, in 1822 in Paris his Historia Critica de la Inquisición. According to Llorente, over the course of its history, the Inquisition processed a total of 341,021 people, of whom at least 10% (31,912) were executed. He wrote, “To calculate the number of victims of the Inquisition is the same as demonstrating, in practice, one of the most powerful and effective causes of the depopulation of Spain.”[38] The principal modern historian of the Inquisition, Henry Charles Lea, author of History of the Inquisition of Spain, considered that these totals, not based on rigourous statistics, were very exaggerated.

The underline shows that 341,021 is very exaaggerated.

Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo Histórico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1560 and 1700. This material provides information about 49,092 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These authors calculate that only 1.9% of those processed were burned at the stake.

The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy.[39] Ricardo García Cárcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia.[40] These authors’ investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras.

García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700–about 2%–the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed. However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, owing to the gaps in documentation, unlikely that the exact number will ever be known.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Are we all in agreement that 40,000 people were burned alive during the Spanish inquisition?

No,

Go to Madrid, Spain and argue with Henry Kamen

Produce **evidence **that refutes Kamen’s estimate of 2200-2700 people executed between 1480-1800–the great majority lumped into the first 25-30 years

BTW, a Wikipedia citation is laughable