What was the most egregious liturgical abuse you ever witnessed?

[Erikaspirit16]

I have seen that in the case of elderly priests with shaky hands.

That makes perfect sense. In this case (it happened fairly often) the priests involved were middle aged, fit, and simply decided not to hand out communion.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I’ll also add a quotation from section 24 of GIRM:

“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

Bishops are allowed some latitude in a narrow range of things they are able to change. These are listed in sections 386-399.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

GIRM 154:

“The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary,so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary.”

I.e., Priest remains on the altar and does not plunge into the congregation like a rock star.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Actually they shouldn’t approach until the priest has received Communion.

GIRM 162

Quite right. See “Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion at Mass” on the USCCB website

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...inary-ministers-of-holy-communion-at-mass.cfm

2nd bullet point: “If extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are required by pastoral need, they should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion.”

Also GIRM 162 as someone else pointed out: “These ministers should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion, and they are always to receive from the hands of the priest celebrant the vessel containing either species of the Most Holy Eucharist for distribution to the faithful.”

Note that the PRIEST–not another extraordinary minister–is supposed to hand each extraordinary minister the chalice.

Has anyone actually seen any of this happen? I haven’t.

 

[Duesenberg]

Actually they shouldn’t approach until the priest has received Communion.

GIRM 162

GIRM 162 does not say that. It actually says:

162. In the distribution of Communion the Priest may be assisted by other Priests who happen to be present. If such Priests are not present and there is a truly large number of communicants, the Priest may call upon extraordinary ministers to assist him, that is, duly instituted acolytes or even other faithful who have been duly deputed for this purpose.[96] In case of necessity, the Priest may depute suitable faithful for this single occasion.[97]

These ministers should not approach the altar before the Priest has received Communion, and they are always to receive from the hands of the Priest Celebrant the vessel containing the species of the Most Holy Eucharist for distribution to the faithful.

It says nothing about “entering the sanctuary.” The “altar” isn’t elevated area separate from the nave. That’s the sanctuary.

 

[Duesenberg]

Also GIRM 162 as someone else pointed out: “These ministers should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion, and they are always to receive from the hands of the priest celebrant the vessel containing either species of the Most Holy Eucharist for distribution to the faithful.”

Yes, that does happen at my parish. All 20 of them.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Several years ago our regular parish priest went on vacation. His substitute was a priest from the diocesan liturgy office. The abuses continued at his Mass, so I sent him a letter listing the abuses and quoting the various passages from GIRM that addressed them. Copies to the parish priest and the parish council. As I said, I didn’t want any of them to say “I didn’t know that.” Ignorance was no longer an option for them.

He wrote back, and called these “minor rubrics” and said “I would encourage patience and trust.”
Patience? Half a century–will that do? Trust? What evidence do I see to cause me to trust?

To me all this is inexplicable. I see only two options: 1) the priest honestly doesn’t know how to say Mass. He’s never read GIRM (it would take 15-20 minutes). He’s ignorant of a main component of his own job. 2) The priest knows perfectly well what GIRM requires, but he consciously refuses to do it. He ignores his vow of obedience. I don’t see any option #3.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Yes, that does happen at my parish. All 20 of them.

You must live in Nebraska. I’ve gone to Mass in over 10 states and have never seen it. But it’s interesting to hear that GIRM is actually followed somewhere.

 

[Duesenberg]

You must live in Nebraska. I’ve gone to Mass in over 10 states and have never seen it. But it’s interesting to hear that GIRM is actually followed somewhere.

Certain things have caused nasty parish liturgical fights over the years that have actually led to reform. This situation and the pouring of the Precious Blood come to mind.

 

[Duesenberg]

To me all this is inexplicable. I see only two options: 1) the priest honestly doesn’t know how to say Mass. He’s never read GIRM (it would take 15-20 minutes). He’s ignorant of a main component of his own job. 2) The priest knows perfectly well what GIRM requires, but he consciously refuses to do it. He ignores his vow of obedience. I don’t see any option #3.

#4 - He knows what to do but is reticent to remove the abuses because it will cause dissent amongst some of the faithful – including perhaps some wealthy benefactors of the parish. Not an excuse, just a reality in quite a few parishes.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

It says nothing about “entering the sanctuary.” The “altar” isn’t elevated area separate from the nave. That’s the sanctuary.

An interesting point I hadn’t considered. And here’s why I never considered it: There is no reason for an extraordinary minister to approach the altar itself. The priest comes to them and distributes the bread and wine. So “altar” must have a more comprehensive meaning.

I did a brief search online:

A church in Virginia has very detailed guidelines http://www.holytrinityparish.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/EMC_Procedures_June-2014.pdf Check out 4.4–“approaching the altar” – “Stand at the foot of the steps to the right of the sanctuary…when the priest drinks from the chalice, bow reverently towards the altar and then go up the steps…”
Clearly this means exactly what it says–they wait OUTSIDE what you have called the sanctuary area until after the priest receives communion.

Here are the instructions for a cathedral in West Virginia: http://www.sacredheartcocathedral.c...Extraordinary-Ministers-of-Holy-Communion.pdf

“As the priest finishes the Fraction Rite, and the Lamb of God is sung, please come forward to the sanctuary and stand to the right or left of the celebrant…” Here also they are waiting OUTSIDE the sanctuary, although they seem to be standing behind the altar prematurely.

The Diocese of Pensacola is more ambigous:
http://www.ptdiocese.org/documents/...ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.3556.pdf

“Because of the different environments of each church, it is appropriate that in some places the ministers approach the sanctuary area as the Priest begins to receive communion so that they are in place when the Priest is ready to distribute communion to the ministers. If the environment of the church requires that the ministers approach the altar to receive communion, then the norm of General Instruction of the Roman Missal is that they not approach the altar until after the Priest has received communion.”

But note it says “APPROACH the sanctuary…” NOT “enter” the sanctuary. But in the last sentence it’s clear that this diocese interprets “altar” as the actual “altar.”

I’ll ask the good folks at Adoremus.org what they think.

 

[Horton]

I see it every day. For daily Mass we have two EMHC & weekend 6-7. They get up during the Agnus Dei and go to the front of the nave but do not approach the Altar until the priest and deacon, if there is one, has received. The the priest or deacon distributes communion to them.

 

[Duesenberg]

There is no reason for an extraordinary minister to approach the altar itself.

I make a distinction between the sanctuary and the altar. Depending on the specific church layout, there can indeed be reasons for EMsHC to enter the sanctuary.

I would caution you about getting too worked up about this stuff. Yes, there are a lot of things that go on in a great many parishes during the celebration of the Mass that are not just a matter of differing personal preferences – they are actually wrong. Some are actual liturgical abuses, some are irregularities, but either way they are wrong.

The problem is, unless the pastor/administrator is courageous and driven enough to make changes – and many are not, ain’t nothing gonna improve – except perhaps the building of bitterness and hatred within your own self.

Logic doesn’t apply on this one. One would think the Mass, given its paramount importance, would be celebrated by the numbers as the Church defines. Unfortunately human qualities like ego, envy, indolence, cowardice and others, terribly complicate things. Unless you’re actually witnessing graviora delicta or the like, I’ve found it best to keep one’s eyes shut and just offer the pain up to God.

I’ll ask the good folks at Adoremus.org what they think.

I’ve written a couple of articles for Adoremus over the years. Keep in mind their opinions hold no power within the Church.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I would caution you about getting too worked up about this stuff. Yes, there are a lot of things that go on in a great many parishes during the celebration of the Mass that are not just a matter of differing personal preferences – they are actually wrong. Some are actual liturgical abuses, some are irregularities, but either way they are wrong.

The problem is, unless the pastor/administrator is courageous and driven enough to make changes – and many are not, ain’t nothing gonna improve – except perhaps the building of bitterness and hatred within your own self.

Logic doesn’t apply on this one. One would think the Mass, given its paramount importance, would be celebrated by the numbers as the Church defines. Unfortunately human qualities like ego, envy, indolence, cowardice and others, terribly complicate things. Unless you’re actually witnessing graviora delicta or the like, I’ve found it best to keep one’s eyes shut and just offer the pain up to God.

I agree with everything you said. But “getting worked up” is not a voluntary action, it’s a gag reflex. It’s like buying a new car, and then someone comes along and scratches it. It’s not a big scratch, and most people don’t even notice it. But the owner notices it–to the extent that’s all he sees when he looks at the car. It’s not a choice to obsess over the scratch, it an unavoidable reaction. And of course I can finesse the problem by going to a Latin Mass…but it’s about 25 miles away vs. a few blocks to my parish church.

I have no problem making my points in letters and in person. However, I’m bright enough to realize that once I’ve made my points, it’s fruitless to continue repeating them over and over, unless something new comes up. So I say what I have to say and move on. The same applies to this forum!

The good news is that after Ratzinger became pope, a lot of these problems disappeared. The new translation was also a huge step forward–or a return to the past. Either way, it’s for the better. It’s also encouraging to see from various posters that wherever they go to Mass things are done right. And of course, as almost everyone has noticed, the younger priests are actually more traditional than the older priests who were trained in the 60s and 70s and inevitably absorbed some of that counter-culture frame of mind.

I’m aware that Adoremus has no official standing. On the other hand, they’ve dealt with these issues for years and years and have a lot more expertise than I will ever have.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Excellent list of the abuses.

 

[Duesenberg]

I agree with everything you said. But “getting worked up” is not a voluntary action, it’s a gag reflex. It’s like buying a new car, and then someone comes along and scratches it. It’s not a big scratch, and most people don’t even notice it. But the owner notices it–to the extent that’s all he sees when he looks at the car. It’s not a choice to obsess over the scratch, it an unavoidable reaction. And of course I can finesse the problem by going to a Latin Mass…but it’s about 25 miles away vs. a few blocks to my parish church.

I agree about the gag reflex. That’s why I keep my eyes closed a great deal at Mass – even when I am serving Mass.

The EF Mass is no panacea. Had you attended one back when the EF was the OF and you had knowledge of the Mass, I’m sure in many cases you would have been disgusted by the number of skipped prayers hyper-velocity, burned-through Masses.

Pope Benedict XVI cleaned-up a lot of details that St. John Paul II did not.

My parish has FAR fewer liturgical abuses and irregularities then it did say in 2000. What’s left is a terribly utilitarian celebration of the Mass. While sad, I will take it over what I once had to swallow each week, anytime!

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Since Benedict, several issues have disappeared, at least in churches I have attended:

1. no more jokes at the beginning of Mass
2. no more self-communication (i.e., extraordinary ministers taking the chalice from the altar and drinking the wine)
3. no more music of any kind at the Consecration
4. And finally…no more Nazi salutes…what were they (he?) thinking???

I am optimistic enough to think conditions will continue to improve. We’ll see.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Priests had to attend a “Mass camp” to have explained to them the correct way to say Mass.

 

[Phemie]

In my parish the EMHCs enter the sanctuary at the Sign of Peace and stand just behind Father at the altar.

The last two pastors have received Communion before they distributed to the EMHCs and altar servers, but for more than a decade before that the priest would distribute Communion to them before he received and they would all consume the Host at the same time; then he would offer the chalice to the EMHCs before he consumed the wine himself. One priest for a while, didn’t receive until after Communion had been distributed to the congregation.

 

[Duesenberg]

no more music of any kind at the Consecration

I have forgotten all about that! We had that too! It was hideous!