What was the transition like?

[puzzleannie]

quote=damooster;6209879]What was the atmosphere like as far as cooperation from the parishioners? Did you witness a lot of objection to the changes, and if so, were people pretty vocal about it, or did most people just go along with everything?

pretty much as now, a priest comes in, says this is how we are going to do things from now on (raise hands, lower hands, hold hands, shake hands, whatever) and by and large Catholics in the pews are obedient and just do it. I think those who protested voted with their feet.

So, you did not appreciate the changes made by the Second Vatican Council?

I NEVER mentioned changes made by V2, I spoke of changes enacted in my parish and diocese, and it is and has been consistently on this forum for several years my contention that little if any of the changes described above were sanctioned, approved or promoted by any V2 document. The change in the lectionary NO Where mandated the structural changes which were made in church buildings, nor in the perverted teachings of that age.

 

[johnnykins]

What I remember most about the transition was how much my parents disliked it. As a kid/teen, I didn’t care too much one way or the other, really.

Yet every Sunday for years my folks “dissed” it: they derided the sign of peace as the silly disruptive free-for-all it became; they groaned at the unsingable terrible music that replaced the traditional hymns and chant; they lamented the abrupt dismissal after communion; they sniggered at the poor “translations”. Etc. But, they kept their comments private and they moved on.

Of course, they were right about all of it.

 

[Biggie]

My recollection? It seemed to me that what came after virtually invalidated that which went before. It was portrayed in our diocese as a simple change from the Latin to the common language of people and simply turning the altar around, but it was, in fact, a deep cultural change. The subsequent changes that had nothing to do with the liturgy tainted the liturgical changes.

One day, for example, the priests in our parish were frequently seen walking about in full cassock and biretta, never in anything less than a black suit with Roman collar, and could be found at the regular times in church quietly praying the breviary. The next, they were walking around in gray shirts with collars and tweed sport coats (confusing with Episcopalians located up the block) or even just sport shirts. Of the four in our parish, one did leave to become an Episcopalian priest and another left the priesthood and married the fifth grade teacher. The Benedictine nuns soon followed suit.

These types of cultural changes, large and small, made it seem to me at the time it was exactly the Catholic culture that was being scrapped, not so much the liturgy. There was absolutely no preparation for that.

 

[Lormar]

How could I forget about the “kiss of peace” and the guitars? And I remember having to sing “Michael, Row The Boat Ashore” and other folk songs,

To this day, I cringe when I see a guitar in Church.

I remember, too, now that my memory is being jarred, that when the priest said “The Mass is ended, go in peace” we were quite happy to say, “Thanks be to God” with great enthusiasm.

It wsn’t an easy adjustment. The “Pieta” prayerbook made its debut just after all the other traditional prayer books were being ditched and was quite well received. We didn’t have much to hold onto.

 

[Cathryn]

From my memories there was no instructions or teaching about the changes. It was very hard on my parents. My personal experience went from the Traditional Latin Mass with the Communion rails etc. to “hey we can do this anywhere”. There were many “home” Masses. A lot of standing around the “altar”, table, desk, singing “This Little Light of Mine”. No more Adoration, Stations of the Cross, First Friday devotions, etc. in my home parish. I am seeing these coming back however.

 

[damooster]

I NEVER mentioned changes made by V2, I spoke of changes enacted in my parish and diocese, and it is and has been consistently on this forum for several years my contention that little if any of the changes described above were sanctioned, approved or promoted by any V2 document. The change in the lectionary NO Where mandated the structural changes which were made in church buildings, nor in the perverted teachings of that age.

I guess this is where my “newness” with Catholicism will become evident because I thought (honestly thought) that all of the liturgical changes were created by the Second Vatican Council. Wasn’t that the point of Vatican II or am I completely wrong?

I should pick up a book…

 

[SMHW]

My experience with the changes was different than many expressed here. I grew up in southern California where the secular culture was far more informal than it was elsewhere in the United States. But the Church tended to be very conservative in matters of doctrine and liturgical practice.

I was in second grade, preparing for First Communion, when the vernacular Masses were introduced. My parents just seemed to take the changes in stride, as did the sisters at my elementary school. With our limited second grade reading skills we learned the English responses and learned the Latin responses by listening to them and repeating (not always completely accurately.) I never got the sense from anyone that the switch from Latin to English mattered.

Those of us in Southern California were somewhat horrified to hear how
the Midwestern and Eastern parishes in the United States were turning the altars around and telling women to stop bothering with hats. My parish was fairly conservative, however, so we didn’t see that happening to some time later.

I think what may have changed some things for our parish was when the roof of church of less than ten years of age developed cracks and was deemed to be in danger of collapse. During the many months during which the roof was under repair we met for Mass at the nearby Catholic high school (folding chairs in two adjoining classrooms with the connecting wall removed and folding chairs out on the lawn outside the classroom windows. When winter came and the weather was no longer conducive to outside seating we moved to the auditorium of the nearby Lutheran college. Sitting on folding chairs, meeting outside on a lawn, and sitting in bleachers was a completely novel and somewhat scandalous experience for many of us. But the alternative was no Mass at all so the parish developed something of a sense of apathy about the environment. The women stopped wearing hats because wearing hats in an auditorium just seemed odd. I think the altar may have been turned around when the Church was finally ready to be used again.

Around this same time a nearby Dominican retreat center began to hold Sunday Masses open to the public in it’s small chapel – a converted barn. In good weather they would hold Mass outdoors on the bowling green. The only instruments were guitars and perhaps a flute played by the “liberal Catholics” from nearby communities who would show up on Sundays. Many of the young people from nearby parishes were eager to hear the music from the retreat center available at their own parishes. At this time the “traditional” music in many Catholic parishes was abysmal. Believe me, folk music, however trite, was an improvement in some parishes.

I’m not sure how the change was handled for the adults but we Catholic school children were given ample time to learn and practice the new English responses that came in 1970. I remember thinking that “spirit” was a better translation of the Latin than was “ghost” but also thinking that, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you,” lost the biblical tie in with what the centurion said to Jesus. My parents seemed rather unconcerned about the new translation. I think most of my teachers were fairly positive. Our diocese seemed so conservative compared to what we were hearing about in other parts of the country. A few changes in language seemed rather inconsequential compared to the Tate/LaBianca murders.

Our new Church was built and finished just in time for my eighth grade graduation. It had the large crucifix and the statues of Mary and Joseph from the old Church. It was build in the standard fan shape of that time. But our sisters still wore habits and taught that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Christ.

By this time secular society had become rather liberal in southern California. Add that to the pre-existing informality of Southern Californians and the Church seemed ultra-orthodox. I think in other parts of the country the Church may have seemed liberal in comparison to the culture at large. But eventually the Church in SoCal “caught up” to its liberal American neighbors.

I guess my rambling post is mostly trying to say that language may be more a matter of formality versus informality than it is a matter of liberalism versus orthodoxy. Most southern Californians are not impressed by words, tradition, or clothes, whether at Mass or in the culture at large. (Hollywood types excluded.) So it’s hard for us to see why a translation is anything more than a passing fad. (I’m not saying that any English translation of the Mass is a fad, just that it is So-Cal nature to view it that way.)

 

[Cathryn]

Actually, I think after some 40+ years we are still in the “transition”.

 

[brotherhrolf]

No. If you read the documents from Vatican II, most of what we have seen cannot be attributed to what Vatican II actually said. Like so many have said, we were completely befuddled out in the pews as every two weeks or so (or so it seemed), an announcement was made. “In two weeks we will no longer chant the Kyrie in Greek. In two weeks we will not chant the Gloria in Latin”.

It was even worse at my high school. Over the summer of 1967, the brothers who taught us abruptly changed from wearing cassocks to wearing slacks, shirt and tie. In the year that followed we went from traditional Catholic hymns to singing the new “songs” including such classics as the now sexist song “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word” and that all-time favorite “And They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love”. Or, to being made to sing Simon and Garfunkle for my high school graduation Mass in 1969.

The entire world was in flux in the late 60s and into the early 70s. It should also be remembered that the “kiss of peace” started out as just turning to one’s neighbor and saying “Peace be with you” not the running about, high five, glad fest that started in the late 70s or “doing the wave” during the Lord’s Prayer which started in the late 80s.

Vatican II was not the problem. It was folks who fit within the description of Baby Boomers. I am a boomer but I have lamented for 45 years what has happened to HMC.

 

[damooster]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. I look forward to hearing more about your personal experiences.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I was in high school in Massachusetts at the time and had been going to daily mass whenever possible for several years. I kind of liked the transition to English and was awed at being able to see what was going on at the altar. I just figured if the pope said the change was OK I should go along with it, no big deal. The Catholic church never asked our opinions prior to this, so why now? Whether I agreed wasn’t relevant. It was still the mass.

Our church building didn’t change except that eventually a free-standing altar was placed in front of the main altar at the foot of the steps and the gates in the center of the altar rail were removed. The tabernacle stayed where it used to be. Best of all, the doors to the church were never locked! That came much later.

I remember my father being upset that the mass wasn’t in Latin because he said it was supposed to be the same all over the world. To me, using a French/English missal was about the same as using a Latin/English missal so going to mass in a foreign language when traveling didn’t bother me. It was still the mass. One good effect was that the 20-minute muttered Latin daily mass gave way to one where the priest took the time to pronounce the words so they could be understood. Not that most priests had done that but some, well, you wondered what they were really praying (and what the altar boys sometimes got away with).

Our priests kept on wearing clerical garb, the sisters at school slightly modified their habit to a simpler headdress. I think women were relieved that, if we didn’t have a hat or mantilla with us, we were spared having to bobby-pin a kleenex or mitten to our head. No one forced us to stop wearing hats but fashions changed and they somewhat went out of style.

I honestly don’t think the change in the mass caused all the problems that are blamed on it. I think it was everything else going on in society that was the real cause.

Things I remember about that time were the sexual revolution, Woodstock, the availability of the ‘pill’ and, later, Catholic resistance to Humanae Vitae, aggressive feminism, mini skirts, a new casualness in dress, men stopped wearing hats (the influence of Jack Kennedy?), more than one TV in a house, bra ads on TV, the fight for integration, the Peace Corps, the Kennedy and King assassinations, Vietnam, the draft, and much more.

 

[NPC]

No. If you read the documents from Vatican II, most of what we have seen cannot be attributed to what Vatican II actually said. Like so many have said, we were completely befuddled out in the pews as every two weeks or so (or so it seemed), an announcement was made. “In two weeks we will no longer chant the Kyrie in Greek. In two weeks we will not chant the Gloria in Latin”.

I consider myself lucky to be in a cathedral choir which sings the parts of the Mass in Latin - I can only imagine what it would be like if the priest were to say that from such and such a date the singing of Latin was to end. So, I know that to lose Latin and the traditional chants would be hard to take - but this is only one of the Church’s treasures which many of the powers that were tried to have consigned to the grave…and we still have bishops trying to reorder sanctuaries in accordance with Vatican II…

You are right, though, that most of what we have been told is because of Vatican II is not to be found in any of the Council documents - strange…I have never seen where it says that altar rails should be torn out - much less that they should be carried away in a skip as someone said earlier; nowhere does it say that existing altars are to be smashed to make way for tables. The tabernacle is supposed to be in “nobilissimo loco” THE most prominent place - somehow translations have made this into “A most prominent place”…In our cathedral, the tabernacle was removed from the high altar and a new tabernacle placed in a side chapel, where there is now adoration every day. In ways this is nice, but on the vigil of December 8, there was exposition of the Blessed Sacrament on the high altar - all I could think was how beautiful it was to see Christ in the centre of the church, I really felt that that is where He belongs!

By the way, if anyone is interested, I read a very short book a few weeks ago which discussed exactly what changes Vatican II wanted churches to make to their sanctuaries - the conclusion is “none”! But it discusses mis-translations of some texts, the concept of a communion table as opposed to an altar of sacrifice, and similarities between supposed Vatican II reforms and those of Protestant reformers in the 16th Century. It’s very interesting - called “The Catholic Sanctuary and the Second Vatican Council” by Michael Davies. It’s published by TAN Books.

 

[ProVobis]

But it discusses mis-translations of some texts, the concept of a communion table as opposed to an altar of sacrifice, and similarities between supposed Vatican II reforms and those of Protestant reformers in the 16th Century. It’s very interesting - called “The Catholic Sanctuary and the Second Vatican Council” by Michael Davies. It’s published by TAN Books.

Bingo. It took them over 400 years but the seeds the Protestant reformers planted finally appeared to take effect.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I sang in my cathedral choir for 20 years before my health declined. We still chant the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei during Lent. I keep hoping that we will add the Pater Noster. From 1983 to 1992 we were expressly forbidden from singing Latin by our then pastor. There is an awful lot of very good Anglican anthems and hymns. but chanting “Sing my tongue the Savior’s glory” is like taking a shower with a raincoat on compared to chanting “Pange lingua gloriosi”. That all changed in 1992 when the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons, France came for my parish’s 200th anniversary and gave the Apostolic Blessing in Latin and the response from the priests and congregation was definitely underwhelming.

 

[NPC]

I sang in my cathedral choir for 20 years before my health declined. We still chant the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei during Lent. I keep hoping that we will add the Pater Noster. From 1983 to 1992 we were expressly forbidden from singing Latin by our then pastor. There is an awful lot of very good Anglican anthems and hymns. but chanting “Sing my tongue the Savior’s glory” is like taking a shower with a raincoat on compared to chanting “Pange lingua gloriosi”. That all changed in 1992 when the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons, France came for my parish’s 200th anniversary and gave the Apostolic Blessing in Latin and the response from the priests and congregation was definitely underwhelming.

Yes, you’re right - some chant translations, good though they may be, just don’t have the same effect as the Latin…I know some English settings of “Adoro Te Devote”, but you just can’t beat the original!

It’s amazing though, the amount of parishes where Gregorian chant & Latin seems to have been forbidden - ironically, though some claim that this was supported by Vatican II, nothing could have been further from the vision of the Council Fathers. We were talking about similar things on another thread, and it was noted how Pope Paul VI sent a copy of Jubilate Deo to every bishop in the world, with the intention of giving an idea of the minimum chant repertoire that the faithful should have. I’d say you could count on one hand the number of parishes in a particular diocese which actually have a copy of Jubilate Deo, never mind actually using it every now and again…

 

[Phemie]

I’d say you could count on one hand the number of parishes in a particular diocese which actually have a copy of Jubilate Deo, never mind actually using it every now and again…

Mine certainly didn’t – until I went searching and downloaded one. Not that we’re ever lilkely to use it.

The problem now in small parishes is that nobody, usually not even the priest, has ever studied Latin and so there is not the foggiest notion how these words are supposed to sound.

 

[NPC]

Mine certainly didn’t – until I went searching and downloaded one. Not that we’re ever lilkely to use it.

The problem now in small parishes is that nobody, usually not even the priest, has ever studied Latin and so there is not the foggiest notion how these words are supposed to sound.

I just downloaded a copy of it myself! I may be taking up directorship of a choir very soon, and I hope to introduce quite a bit of chant - this choir has, unfortunately, been limited to modern worship music of the past 20-30 years, so I would be anxious to give them a taste of the 1,200 years or so of sacred music which they’ve missed out on! Hopefully they’ll be open to it…

It’s amazing though, how people think that chant is out of their reach. It really is very simple - well, not all of it of course; but if one starts off with a simple Mass such as Mass XVIII and chants set to psalm tones, I think one begins to get a feel for it…I mean, chant really sings itself once it gets going and isn’t allowed to drag.

 

[Scoochy]

Since I was born in 1956, and we all know how fast kids pick up new things, it was pretty simple for me.
I would like to add that since Our Lady has said it distresses Her that less & less attention is being paid to the Holy Eucharist, I am happy to see the Latin showing up again in the Holy Masses & Missals (with the Latin being shown again across from the English). Being that Latin is not a natural language for us in the U.S.A. it does
require some extra concentration to keep up with following Mass. Anything to increase our attention-span on the Holy Mass is always a good thing.

 

[benedictgal]

The same thing is going to happen again with the new Roman Missal that will be coming out. I suppose it’s not as drastic as switching from Latin to English mass, but still changes that most of us may find difficult. In addition, many churches in NE Ohio are closing which is very hard for so many. The reasons for closing vary from a shortage of priest to people moving out to rural areas.

The changes are not that difficult. I think that we are making more out of this than there needs to be. The changes will simply bring us into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam. The language is richer and more accurate.

 

[Phemie]

In the year that followed we went from traditional Catholic hymns to singing the new “songs” including such classics as the now sexist song “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word” and that all-time favorite “And They’ll Know We are Christians by Our Love”.

Our choir, in an effort to relive their school years, opted for “They’ll Know we are Christians…” for Pentecost this year.

Rereading all these posts made me remember that my parents were not that upset by the use of the vernacular but were absolutely appalled at the destruction of the high altar in a church that dated back to the 20s. The tabernacle was moved to the right side altar, so still in the sanctuary and still very ‘prominent’.

The one thing that DIDN’T happen in our parish was having the people sing. Never were we invited to sing the responses, the acclamations or hymns. Forty+ years later, the choir is still the only source of singing, there are no hymnals, the choice of settings for the responses changes every Sunday so there is no way the PIP can really learn them and the parish looks askance at the tourist or returning son or daughter who dares to sing because the choir has accidentally opted for a setting that they happen to know. That is the idiosyncrasy of my birth parish, something I haven’t experienced anywhere else.