What was the transition like?

[Aramis]

In other words, Phemie, your parents’ parish ignored Vatican II… which called for the opposite: the people were to participate more, and nothing about the high altar having to be removed was stated by the council. (An altar allowing for celebration vs populem was called for by a later document, but it also didn’t call for removal of the high altar, merely adding the freestanding one.)

 

[PA650]

In other words, Phemie, your parents’ parish ignored Vatican II… which called for the opposite: the people were to participate more, and nothing about the high altar having to be removed was stated by the council. (An altar allowing for celebration vs populem was called for by a later document, but it also didn’t call for removal of the high altar, merely adding the freestanding one.)

Overall, it seems many parishes throughout the U.S. adopted the changes called by Vatican II quite differently depending on the Bishop of the Diocese and the particular pastor. For example, the parish I attend had the high altar placed in the former spot of one of the side altars, among other things. Frankly, due to many changes that occurred following the Second Vatican Council, we now are experiencing a “reform of the reform,” or a “recatholization of the liturgy.”

 

[benedictgal]

Our choir, in an effort to relive their school years, opted for “They’ll Know we are Christians…” for Pentecost this year.

Rereading all these posts made me remember that my parents were not that upset by the use of the vernacular but were absolutely appalled at the destruction of the high altar in a church that dated back to the 20s. The tabernacle was moved to the right side altar, so still in the sanctuary and still very ‘prominent’.

The one thing that DIDN’T happen in our parish was having the people sing. Never were we invited to sing the responses, the acclamations or hymns. Forty+ years later, the choir is still the only source of singing, there are no hymnals, the choice of settings for the responses changes every Sunday so there is no way the PIP can really learn them and the parish looks askance at the tourist or returning son or daughter who dares to sing because the choir has accidentally opted for a setting that they happen to know. That is the idiosyncrasy of my birth parish, something I haven’t experienced anywhere else.

I got chills reading your post, not because of what you wrote but, because of who you quoted. I really miss brotherrolf. He really had some great stuff to post. I guess your imbedding his quote in your post makes it seem as though he’s still down here with us, debating the issues.

 

[NPC]

I got chills reading your post, not because of what you wrote but, because of who you quoted. I really miss brotherrolf. He really had some great stuff to post. I guess your imbedding his quote in your post makes it seem as though he’s still down here with us, debating the issues.

You know, I thought the very same thing…It was very odd. Nice all the same to see that his posts are still being used to further discussions here on CAF!!

 

[ALLGIRLS]

The translation of the new missal is nowhere near as drastic of change as the TLM to Novus ordo. Nowhere near.

Thanks for this thread! I, too, have wondered about how the transition from TLM to NO was made (all I know is my mother didn’t like it one bit, and whenever anyone would point out how you could understand everything “now” she would point out that the old missels had the English translation right next to the Latin, so you always know what was being said/prayed). It seems the big ballyhoo from some bishops was that we’ve had the same translation for 40 years and it would too difficult for people to adapt. But the TLM was going on for like 400 years, right? and apparently no one had a problem “adapting” to an entirely NEW Mass!

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[ProVobis]

Thanks for this thread! I, too, have wondered about how the transition from TLM to NO was made (all I know is my mother didn’t like it one bit, and whenever anyone would point out how you could understand everything “now” she would point out that the old missels had the English translation right next to the Latin, so you always know what was being said/prayed). It seems the big ballyhoo from some bishops was that we’ve had the same translation for 40 years and it would too difficult for people to adapt. But the TLM was going on for like 400 years, right? and apparently no one had a problem “adapting” to an entirely NEW Mass!

In Christ,

Ellen

Actually the Latin Mass goes back all the way to the third century if not before. It was revised after the Council of Trent (in 1570) but it wasn’t considered a new Mass.

And, you’re right, the old handmissals had the Latin/English and they still do. The English was never official, though, but a good guide to helping you understand the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So is the Spanish and all other languages covered as Latin is still the official language of the Church and the Western liturgies.

 

[SMHW]

Thanks for this thread! I, too, have wondered about how the transition from TLM to NO was made (all I know is my mother didn’t like it one bit, and whenever anyone would point out how you could understand everything “now” she would point out that the old missels had the English translation right next to the Latin, so you always know what was being said/prayed).

This seems so odd to me. My parents certainly weren’t dancing in the streets in 1965 when Masses began to be held in English. But they rather enjoyed being able to better understand the words. When the (more or less) current ICEL translation came about five or six years later they might have shrugged but they didn’t really care. I know I remember thinking that the translation seemed less biblical and/or literal than the earlier English translation but most people I knew seemed to LIKE it. And I certainly did NOT belong to a “progressive” parish.

It seems the big ballyhoo from some bishops was that we’ve had the same translation for 40 years and it would too difficult for people to adapt. But the TLM was going on for like 400 years, right? and apparently no one had a problem “adapting” to an entirely NEW Mass!

Of course those changes took place over a a period of time. The biggest issue I see with the latest translation is that we have been out of “change mode” for a few decades now.

 

[ProVobis]

My parents certainly weren’t dancing in the streets in 1965 when Masses began to be held in English. But they rather enjoyed being able to better understand the words.

Funny, when my parents heard English in the Mass, they were wondering if the service was even Catholic. Yet they seemed to have had no problem with Polish in the Mass.

 

[Irishmom2]

we were spared having to bobby-pin a kleenex or mitten to our head.

Wow, that’s hard line…I remember the kleenex, but never saw anyone use a mitten! Good thing too. I would have been the first one laughing…

I remember there was this family in our church that really resented all the changes. When it came time for the “handshake of peace” they would stare straight ahead and not even acknowledge anyone. I always felt sorry for anyone that didn’t know they were like that and that tried to approach them.

 

[SMHW]

I was too young to think much of the transition from the older form(s) of the Mass to the Mass as we know it today. The transition was not an overnight matter. Many things had been in flux for the last several decades. I was just starting school when we switched from Latin to mainly English and I just took it as a matter of course that there were both English and Latin prayers and responses. When I was older (sixth grade or so) we learned the new responses in school so we would be ready to say them when we switched.

As regards the upcoming revisions: the comments I hear from people who are, say, 45 or older, tend to be along the line of,
“We’re going back to the **OLD **English translation,”
rather than
“We are moving to a **BRAND NEW **English translation.”
I think most older people look at this as a revision of the first English translations as opposed to a new translation from the Latin.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Athough the changes in the Mass seemed rather abrupt at the time, and caused some confusion, most people seemed to adjust fairly well and accepted them graciously after they got used to them, in my experience. I, for one, liked Mass being in the vernacular. My Mother did too. But my Father-in-law did not like the New Mass one bit–it was too long for him My Mother-in-law didn’t really care, she was a convert and never really got used to the Latin, and was used to long church services. He used to grumble about it sometimes. He was used to a 20-30 min. low Mass where he attended. Never said a word about the transition from Latin to English.

I think people will adjust just fine to the new translation because they will be prepared for it, and it’s not anything like the drastic changes that took place in the 60’s and 70’s. However, I did hear one convert say “They’re changing the Mass? I just learned this one!”

 

[ProVobis]

There were many other issues during the transition period. Assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, the Vietnam War, the draft, ecumenism, relaxation of the fasting and Friday meat abstinence rules, Saturday night Mass, and, of course, the bigger issue than the liturgy: the birth control pill. Catholics were leaving the Church in droves and because of all the confusion in the liturgy, the promulgation of the New Mass was a relief once it become the standard throughout all parishes. Of course since then is a different matter. 70’s had different issues, more cultures came to be, etc. etc.

 

[Scoochy]

I was in high school in Massachusetts at the time and had been going to daily mass whenever possible for several years. I kind of liked the transition to English and was awed at being able to see what was going on at the altar. I just figured if the pope said the change was OK I should go along with it, no big deal. The Catholic church never asked our opinions prior to this, so why now? Whether I agreed wasn’t relevant. It was still the mass.

Our church building didn’t change except that eventually a free-standing altar was placed in front of the main altar at the foot of the steps and the gates in the center of the altar rail were removed. The tabernacle stayed where it used to be. Best of all, the doors to the church were never locked! That came much later.

I remember my father being upset that the mass wasn’t in Latin because he said it was supposed to be the same all over the world. To me, using a French/English missal was about the same as using a Latin/English missal so going to mass in a foreign language when traveling didn’t bother me. It was still the mass. One good effect was that the 20-minute muttered Latin daily mass gave way to one where the priest took the time to pronounce the words so they could be understood. Not that most priests had done that but some, well, you wondered what they were really praying (and what the altar boys sometimes got away with).

Our priests kept on wearing clerical garb, the sisters at school slightly modified their habit to a simpler headdress. I think women were relieved that, if we didn’t have a hat or mantilla with us, we were spared having to bobby-pin a kleenex or mitten to our head. No one forced us to stop wearing hats but fashions changed and they somewhat went out of style.

I honestly don’t think the change in the mass caused all the problems that are blamed on it. I think it was everything else going on in society that was the real cause.

Things I remember about that time were the sexual revolution, Woodstock, the availability of the ‘pill’ and, later, Catholic resistance to Humanae Vitae, aggressive feminism, mini skirts, a new casualness in dress, men stopped wearing hats (the influence of Jack Kennedy?), more than one TV in a house, bra ads on TV, the fight for integration, the Peace Corps, the Kennedy and King assassinations, Vietnam, the draft, and much more.

WOW!!! What a blast…:dancing:
I guess that means I really AM old.
I never had to put a mitten, but the chapel caps, mantillas &, best of all…KLEENEX with bobby pins. Oh yeah.
GLOVES…yes, white gloves (mandatory).
Nuns DIDN’T change habits (Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament)??
At church NO air conditioning…big ole blast fans. We still sweated (maybe since we were at Mass we perspired).
Benedictions, monstrances, incense (still makes me gag & migraine), cloth of gold vestments for the Benedictions. I REALLY liked that cloth of gold.
BIG, old weird pulpit with a shell-thing over the top; the Priest had to walk up some stairs to get there?!
Funerals…everything BLACK: BIG OLD candle holders, black over the casket, Priest wore black, AND…get ready…the “Dies Irae”. Remember that? Really cheered-up the crowd

Here’s my home church. It’s very famous:
immaculateconception-pawhuska.org/picsofchurch.htm
Now, this is very vain (Lord, please forgive me), but look at those photos and BE JEALOUS…:extrahappy: