What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

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lak611 said:
Yes, you have the right attitude! There is no such thing as the Church giving us a “bad” Mass. Yes, a Mass can be offered improperly by a priest or assisted irreverantly by members of the congregation (and that is the sin of the priest/congregation, not the Church), but since the Church is preserved from error and guided by the Holy Spirirt, any Mass ritual that the Church gives us truly is a valid Mass, and the same goes for the Sacraments.
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While I agree with the statement that thh Church is protected from error I vehemently disagree that every Mass and Church function is so affected. I’ll give the reason since I know a lot of people are going to scream bloody murder over the statement.

Each and every apostasy and heresy that the Church has endured and triumphed over in its history, and there have been hundreds of them if not thousands, did not spring forth fully grown and functional… Every one of them started at a local level by either the laity, a local Priest or a Bishop. They grew from there. Some grew wildly, others just struggled on. Some lasted only a short while. Other lasted for generations. Others are still around today. You can find apostates and heretics in the Church today if you look around, I guarantee it. Many of those who profess to be Catholic truly are not and that includes the Clergy as well as the laity. It is not at all inconcievable that a local church could stray so far from the norm that it is indeed heretical.

One example would be churches that stopped using the Trinitarian formula in baptisms and went to the formula of I baptize thee in the name of the Creator the Redeemer and the Sanctifer. Those baptisms were found to be not valid, thus the Sacrament itself was not valid. The same could happen with any sacrament that strays away from the approved formula…And such things do indeed happen.

The only real difference is that in the past the Church dealt sternly with Apostates and Heretics as well as the movements they spawned, whereas today, the Church normally turns a blind eye in the name of inclusiveness and lets things go. There are rare exceptions, but normally they are safe these days.
 
anamchara said:
I think you are placing more importance on this apology because you have personal issues with the person, I’m sorry but that is how I read this. I have seen several times rude comments made to her. To be honest Netmil(name removed by moderator), I once apologize to you, not only did you never acknowledge it but you never once apologized to me for making some pretty snide little comments about me to other posters, no you never said my name but it was implied. Actually you said things to me personally when I frist came on here without even knowing me. And no, I don’t have post to go and prove it but I can tell you it hurt and I didn’t like it. Apologies need to go both ways my friend.

Now to the matter at hand 🙂 I apologize for the thread disruptions.

We can discuss it yes, but I have to go pick up my daughter now, let me come back later. 😉
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Do you (think) that she (the person that posted a comment that was a fabrication) was correct in not apologizing?
Do you think that the OP deserved an apology from said poster?
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Depends on the slant one uses. It was for an isolated situation, all the facts of which we do not have, AND in the same letter the office in the Holy See stated that it could not be reccommended to the faithful that they attend an SSPX Mass.
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Now look-- who is putting on a slant.
 
are we here to dicuss the video, or are we here to discuss the society? should we turn this whole post into lets discuss the society, or should we actually keep it on track and discuss the video? you decide which is more relevent and decide for yourself if CAF rules that specifically STATE not to get the post off track is wrong. you decide. or do you think that CAF rules are irelevent?
 
Marilena said:
are we here to dicuss the video, or are we here to discuss the society? should we turn this whole post into lets discuss the society, or should we actually keep it on track and discuss the video? you decide which is more relevent and decide for yourself if CAF rules that specifically STATE not to get the post off track is wrong. you decide. or do you think that CAF rules are irelevent?
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I say—lets go back to discussing the video.
 
yes that is why mods put RULES out for US to follow because it keeps things on track. my sister never intended for her post to get off track, so lets respect her and keep it on track.
 
Karin said:
Do you (think) that she (the person that posted a comment that was a fabrication) was correct in not apologizing?
Do you think that the OP deserved an apology from said poster?
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naww, to be honest if someone accidently accused me of attending “clown Masses” lets say? But then they later wrote " I was mistaken and have taken it out" that would be enough for me. It was an abvious mistake and innocent and she admited it. That should be enough, I still feel the apology was being forced and a bigger issue was made because of who she is. If you don’t think this to be the case then that’s cool. We have different opinions.

Shall we get back to the thread? Netmil(name removed by moderator) asked me something and now I have the time to answer. I consider the poster and the apology issue to be a closed matter.
 
Walking_Home said:
I say—lets go back to discussing the video.
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Which is what I think PuzzleAnnie was doing. The people who have voiced a distaste for the video have done so on the grounds of what the video had to say about the Mass (wherein the Church cannot lead us astray, contrary to what the video seems to be saying) and what they had to say about at least one pope (Blessed John XXIII was not guilty of the heresy of modernism, which the video clearly says). It’s not a problem with the TLM, it’s not a problem with the pre-VII Church. And we didn’t make the thread into being about that.
 
let me ask this about a part in the video. okay, some of you have questioned the credibility of it correct? did it not show dancers at a mass? how can that be faked? do you think that dancing belongs at a mass?

also, let me ask this question, what did Jesus do with the money changers? it is relevent in regards to the video, and to the above question.
 
Is something so big that it can’t be discussed?
Yes, it may well cause rancor and divisions but the divisions stay and get bigger when people refuse to discuss other’s concerns.If the concerns in this video are not discussed, the fester and grow larger.
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Can you clarify for me what concerns exactly that you saw in this vedio that you want to discuss? There seem to be several.
 
Marilena said:
let me ask this about a part in the video. okay, some of you have questioned the credibility of it correct? did it not show dancers at a mass? how can that be faked? do you think that dancing belongs at a mass?

also, let me ask this question, what did Jesus do with the money changers? it is relevent in regards to the video, and to the above question.
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Here’s the thing: the video doesn’t seperate out what is an abuse of the Mass from what is the Mass, the ontological nature of the Mass. The implication would be, then, “well of COURSE, there’s liturgical dancing! What did you expect from the Pauline Mass?!?!?!” Liturgical dancing is not a part of the Pauline Rite. Does the video make that point?
 
Walking_Home said:
We were warned not to go—if the intent is to separate from the Church.
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Again, as far as we know, it was addressed to one person with one set of circumstances. It wasn’t a blanket permission. It still is not recommended by the Apostolic See. It’s still warned against by Ecclesia Dei. If you feel like you want to contend with that, be my guest.
 
Unfortunately, Marilena, I have seen with my own to eyes dancing at Mass at a cathedral. I have seen women in gauzy ballet type gowns over pastel leotards carrying bowls of burning incense in their hands and wafting it around as if they were in a Cecil B. deMille production. I have seen these same women carrying May pole banners and waving them around. For that reason after two occassions, this choir member refused to sing at any more diocesan Masses.

The video is a little over the top. I think that a reverent NO is possible but for me something is still missing. I find myself being drawn more and more back to the Mass of my childhood.
 
lak611 said:
Yes, you have the right attitude! **There is no such thing as the Church giving us a “bad” Mass. ** Yes, a Mass can be offered improperly by a priest or assisted irreverantly by members of the congregation (and that is the sin of the priest/congregation, not the Church), but since the Church is preserved from error and guided by the Holy Spirirt, any Mass ritual that the Church gives us truly is a valid Mass, and the same goes for the Sacraments.
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So the notorious Halloween mass where the priest dressed up as Barney, and EMHC dressed as devils, complete with horns was not a “BAD” Mass? Please. Poor Jesus, having to suffer that indignation.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Again, as far as we know, it was addressed to one person with one set of circumstances. It wasn’t a blanket permission. It still is not recommended by the Apostolic See. It’s still warned against by Ecclesia Dei. If you feel like you want to contend with that, be my guest.
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As I said—look who is slanting.

Back to the topic of this thread—the video.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Which is what I think PuzzleAnnie was doing. The people who have voiced a distaste for the video have done so on the grounds of what the video had to say about the Mass (wherein the Church cannot lead us astray, contrary to what the video seems to be saying) and what they had to say about at least one pope (Blessed John XXIII was not guilty of the heresy of modernism, which the video clearly says). It’s not a problem with the TLM, it’s not a problem with the pre-VII Church. And we didn’t make the thread into being about that.
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But how could Annie discuss the video if she won’t watch it?
 
you know what kirk? i believe there ARE reverent NO’s, but really, come on, should dancing and limbo-ing be alowed at the mass?

my point was WHAT and WHY did Christ drive out the money changers?

should there be dancing and limbo-ing at mass?
 
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