What were the intended goals of Vatican II, and were those goals achieved?

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Just wondering how the expressed goals going into Vatican II match up with the outcomes. Bishop Barron spoke a bit recently on the subject, which got me curious. Thoughts?
 
It’s pretty much been a total failure on every front (where the blame lies for this can be debated of course). Go document by document, look at the good intentions of each, and see the result in every case has, sadly, been the opposite.

Constitutions:

Church: understanding of the most basic truths about the Church were thrown into confusion (CDF has had to intervene at least four times to clarify the most basic truth that the Catholic Church alone is still the sole Church of Christ) and rather than being treated as a necessary “sacrament of salvation” salvation became generally presumed to be found everywhere.

Modern World: the nature of man has been thrown into more confusion than ever and the world is less Christian and more hostile to the Church.

Liturgy: belief in the real presence and understanding of the meaning of Mass has plummeted, liturgical abuses went way up, and Mass attendance and participation on Sundays has plummeted (not to mention vocations to the priesthood).

Revelation: the Scriptures were treated more like error riddled human writings by clergy than before. “Development of doctrine” is now used as justification for substantial change.

Declarations:

Education: once solid Catholic institutions have mostly been completely secularized

Other religions: there have been excesses into indifferentism, an increase in hostile sects, with little common goals being achieved (society has gotten even more secular and hostile to religion).

Religious Freedom: instead of the true doctrine of religions freedom found in the declaration and catechism, instead what was spread and implemented in once Catholic countries was the false version condemned so often that makes relative conscience supreme, and separates the truth about God and man from public life.

Decrees:

Laity: the faithful are just as, if not more divided between their private faith and what they think society should be shaped like (just look at polls on issues like same-sex marriage).

Ecumenism: most non-Catholic communities have gotten farther away from the Catholic Church in their doctrine (especially with regards to morality, gender issues, and sacramental practice), and religious indifferentism and irenicism has spread more in the Catholic Church

Missions: the urgency of seeking conversions for the salvation of souls has too often been suppressed and replaced with merely spreading social development

Religious: most of the convents and monasteries emptied and many of those left turned to un- or non-Christian activities (weird cosmic evolution stuff, reiki, or just plain secular social work).

Eastern Churches: see above re Constitution on the Church and decree on ecumenism

Communications: dissenting publications multiplied

Bishops: most bishops seem to act more like careerist middle management, and less like vicars of Christ than ever, while mismanaging their scandal-ridden dioceses into the ground.

Priests/Training: vocations fell, priests leaving and being laicized multiplied, priests promoting their own opinions and doing their own thing in the liturgy went way up, discipline became lax, not to mention the scandals…
 
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the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this Ecumenical Council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the brethren who are separated from her. To mankind, oppressed by so many difficulties, the Church says, as Peter said to the poor who begged alms from him: “I have neither gold nor silver, but what I have I give you; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise and walk” (Acts 3:6). In other words, the Church does not offer to the men of today riches that pass, nor does she promise them a merely earthly happiness. But she distributes to them the goods of divine grace which, raising men to the dignity of sons of God, are the most efficacious safeguards and aids toward a more human life. She opens the fountain of her life-giving doctrine which allows men, enlightened by the light of Christ, to understand well what they really are, what their lofty dignity and their purpose are, and, finally, through her children, she spreads everywhere the fullness of Christian charity, than which nothing is more effective in eradicating the seeds of discord, nothing more efficacious in promoting concord, just peace, and the brotherly unity of all.
John XXIII Opening address to the Council
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We will strive, so far as Our weakness permits and God gives Us the grace, to approach the world in which God has destined Us to live. We will approach it with reverence, persistence, and love, in an effort to get to know it and to offer it the gifts of truth and grace of which God has made Us custodian. We will strive to make the world share in the divine redemption and in the hope which inspires Us. Engraven on Our heart are those words of Christ which We would humbly but resolutely make Our own: “For God sent not his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.”
Paul VI Ecclesiam Suam 69
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There is always more to do.
 
I’m hesitant to reply to this. I don’t feel like getting flagged. And this is a topic that is known for it.
However, the answer is, I don’t know. They called it a council for the Church in the modern world but it seemed to be going just fine. Most Councils are convened to counter some sort of crisis or question that is dividing the Church. There was none here. It was almost like it was just called because they felt like they should. Now the First Vatican Council ended quite abruptly and was never finished, so one can only speculate what else it would have done.
The Second Vatican Council I think had good intentions but I personally think it didn’t work as the Church had hoped. I believe it was led by the Spirit of course but the overall results just aren’t there. Even with the propagation of the new Mass the GIRM has this optimistic view in the introduction of how it’s going to feed our spiritual hunger and we are all going to be so holy because of it. Yah. I don’t see that at all. All i see is religious indifference where Catholics are falling away. Is it the Councils fault? No. Should the theologians and liturgists who created the novus ordo been given such an honor? Probably not. Who even knows what their true intentions were.
Only a couple of the documents of the Council are dogmatic. Most of the Council was pastoral, and I guess it is up to the individual to say whether that was a success.
 
Total failure? That is a false view. And the OP provided little to go on. When Vatican II ended in December 1965, radicals and dissidents were ready to attack inside and outside the Church. Pope Paul VI had to deal with dissidents who were causing confusion about priestly celibacy in 1967.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis.html

An attempt to cause even greater confusion regarding artificial contraception had to be dealt with in 1968. Within 24 hours, the Pope’s words were twisted by Catholic Theologians who took out a full page ad in the New York Times.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-v...ments/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

The looting and dismantling of Church interiors begins. Statues, altar and communion rails are removed.

The groundwork is also being laid for the National Abortion Rights Action League which is founded in 1969. It lies to the people and the press. What it actually did:


The February 23, 1970 issue of Time magazine runs a cover story titled the Catholic Exodus: Why Priests and Nuns are Quitting. Again, it was about celibacy. An excerpt:
"THE Vatican last week announced that all Catholic priests would henceforth be asked to make an annual public affirmation of their vows of celibacy and obedience. The day chosen for this oath was Holy Thursday—the feast day that, in Roman Catholic theology, commemorates Christ’s founding of the priesthood. Obliquely, the decree was yet another negative answer from Rome to the Dutch Pastoral Council (TIME, Jan. 19), which last month advocated optional celibacy for… "


1970s So-called Adult Bookstores open everywhere, multiplying temptations and creating planned addictions. American TV begins its move from clean and wholesome to adding dirty and filthy.
 
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I suppose I must concede that Vatican 2 was a failure to some extent. Pope John offered a goal in his Opening Address that we have not achieved yet:
It often happens, as we have learned in the daily exercise of the apostolic ministry, that, not without offense to Our ears, the voices of people are brought to Us who, although burning with religious fervor, nevertheless do not think things through with enough discretion and prudence of judgement. These people see only ruin and calamity in the present conditions of human society. They keep repeating that our times, if compared to past centuries, have been getting worse. And they act as if they have nothing to learn from history, which is the teacher of life, and as if at the time of past Councils everything went favorably and correctly with respect to Christian doctrine, morality, and the Church’s proper freedom. We believe We must quite disagree with these prophets of doom who are always forecasting disaster, as if the end of the world were at hand.
In the present course of human events, by which human society seems to be entering a new order of things, we should see instead the mysterious plans of divine Providence which through the passage of time and the efforts of men, and often beyond their expectation, are achieving their purpose and wisely disposing of all things, even contrary human events, for the good of the Church. This is easy to see if careful attention is given to today’s very serious questions and controversies concerning political and economic matters.
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Young Catholics were leaving the Church during Vatican II and the Church wanted to stop the exodus.

The early 70’s, the exodus sped up as young Catholics began looking East for spirituality and many found it.

Others found that Eastern Religions had more mandates than Catholicism so gave up on those as well.

Mid 70’s, there was a resurgence of middle aged Catholics returning to the Church as a result of the Charismatic Movement and Marriage Encounter.

It began to fall apart as the culture changed and less young people believed in God, and of course had no use for the Church.

The sex abuse scandal, which is mostly misunderstood because of the media sensational reporting on it, really kept away not only young Catholics, but older Catholics left as well.

The solution ?

Divine intervention, so pray pray pray.

Jim
 
No Catholics were looking to the East for spirituality. In the early 1970s, on the Wayne State University campus, I walked into a bookstore that had books on Eastern mysticism stacked floor to ceiling on one wall. How did those books get there? Who told young people to reject mom, dad and the Church? Hippies came into our neighborhoods in the 1960s to preach an evil gospel. Have sex with anyone, ignore the Church, smoke dope, which they could supply. They were committed to wrecking normal, stable neighborhoods and trying to convince people to live their way. A few tried it, then a few more. Fortunately, some were able to escape the evil atmosphere.

Head Shops (Head meaning dope head) opened, selling anarchist/Marxist newspapers and filthy underground comix.
 
Pope Paul VI wrote a letter asking the spiritual leaders of the various religious orders, like Benedictines and Trappist, to dialogue with the leaders of Eastern Religions, to learn what was drawing young Catholics toward those religions I was there I remember it happening among my peers.

The book stores would not stock books on Eastern Religion if there was not a market demand f for them.

Jim
 
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The groundwork was laid by others. I had no interest in such books since my religion needed no alternative. In Ann Arbor, I saw the same thing. Markets were artificially created. As long as it wasn’t moral or Christian, it was promoted.

Alternative lifestyles.
Alternative religion.
Stability? No.
 
Markets of this sort are driven by demand not via artificial means

Eckhart Tolle had the market demand for his books 10 years ago

Now it’s Jordan Peterson

Jim
 
In the mid-1960s, we did not lock our doors at night, most of our neighbors were good neighbors and no matter what Church you went to, we had shared values. No, it was not perfect. We had a little crime and a few bad apples. We were taught right from wrong and tended to listen to our parents and to our priests. Neighbors helped neighbors without asking for anything in return. We had people we looked up to.

The strangers started coming in the middle of 1965. They lied to us. They abused our trust. I saw them. By 1970, illegal drugs began to appear in the local Catholic High School. How did they get there? I saw it happen in real time. I saw an older brother in college try to convince his younger brother to take a dangerous drug.

“We’ll burn this country down if we have to!” Peace? Love? No, Anarchy.

Destroy the social order.

Eckhart Tolle was selling poison as part of the ongoing assault.
 
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When Fr Curran triggered a massive wave of opposition to Humanae Vitae in 1968, he and his allies were already entrenched in powerful positions, from before the Council. These dissenters were all trained, appointed, and promoted by the pre Vatican 2 Church. The same can be said about bishops who pushed a liberal agenda In the 1970s.

The problems were well underway in the 1950s. But they were under the radar.

Regarding secularism, keep in mind this impacted on Protestant and Jewish institutions in the 1960s. They had no Vatican 2. Secularism hit Western societies like a tidal wave.
 
A lot of people were involved, they were highly trained and committed. No tidal wave appears without the proper motivation.

They attacked and attacked some more.
 
There is still a lot to unpack from the Second Vatican Council. Ed, there are places that were locking their doors back then.
What strangers started coming who abused your trust? Who lied to you and about what. How was your trust abused?
What does this have to do with Vatican Councils?
I am not following
 
You’re not? Vatican II was and continues to be the scapegoat. “Blame it on Vatican II (not us).” I’m talking about Hippies who had their way of speaking and uniform way of dressing. They were easy to identify and most were either deluded or living in sin. That’s what they wanted for us. “Sin like we do.”

“Live like we do.”

You know what the problem is with you Catholics? All you do is listen to the Pope.

And our alternative was what? Them?
 
I think some things came about which was intended, but other things that did happen were not what was intended. I have read some of the documents of V2 , due to this topic being discussed within my circle of friends several years ago and also because I wanted to “see” for myself and not rely on second-hand info.

This is the book I bought → Documents of Vatican II: Vatican Translation
 
V2 gets blamed and/or credited for way too much. Other than the doc on Liturgy, most documents merely took into account the changes that were already in place, and tried to guide processes already in motion. The role of the laity was already far different in 1960 than at V1. The document recorded that. The same was true for Ecumenism since WW2. As far as Religious Liberty goes, the Council Father’s saw what Concordats had done for Italy, Spain, and Portugal. They learned from that experience.

I would argue that V2 failed to anticipate the massive attack on dogma, the rapid secularization of higher education, and the dangerous concentration of power in a secularized, politicized Mass media.

But then, nobody else saw it coming either. The fact that V2 missed a few trends does not negate the value of what they did.
 
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