What/who regulates the use of music in liturgy?

[Usige]

It would help tremendously if chant was written in standard musical notation.

As you can tell chant is pretty standardized on 4 line neume notation, so by standard, I assume you mean the western 5 line staff with a treble/G clef.

There is a very good reason to not use music notation that was actually meant for instruments. The human voice is not a fix pitch instrument, but uses relative pitch. Even someone with absolute pitch does not have an A above middle C = 440 Hz button. All neumes indicate is relative pitch changes, and relative length of notes. Nothing in chant is absolute. That is why there isn’t a time signature or anything to set a metronome. That is how most vocalists read music anyway “little dots go up, I go up. little dots go down, I go down” or “dot with line is shorter than circle with line, shorter than circle.” Most amateur vocalists could not tell you the key a piece is in and many could not tell you if they are singing a major 3rd or how many semi tones there are between C and E. In other words the lack of standard notation is really only an issue for musicians trained to see music in those terms. Do you also have issues with guitar tablature since it is a notation for a specific instrument? Chant notation is simply a notation system suited for a single instrument; the human voice.

The most important thing to remember about chant notation is that it is meant as a visual reminder. It was always intended that chant be learned by ear and the neumes used to remind someone of what they have already heard. It is why solfege and ear training are so important to chant. If you can’t sing intervals then chant will be a challenge.

 

[clem456]

As you can tell chant is pretty standardized on 4 line neume notation, so by standard, I assume you mean the western 5 line staff with a treble/G clef.

There is a very good reason to not use music notation that was actually meant for instruments. The human voice is not a fix pitch instrument, but uses relative pitch. Even someone with absolute pitch does not have an A above middle C = 440 Hz button. All neumes indicate is relative pitch changes, and relative length of notes. Nothing in chant is absolute. That is why there isn’t a time signature or anything to set a metronome. That is how most vocalists read music anyway “little dots go up, I go up. little dots go down, I go down” or “dot with line is shorter than circle with line, shorter than circle.” Most amateur vocalists could not tell you the key a piece is in and many could not tell you if they are singing a major 3rd or how many semi tones there are between C and E. In other words the lack of standard notation is really only an issue for musicians trained to see music in those terms. Do you also have issues with guitar tablature since it is a notation for a specific instrument? Chant notation is simply a notation system suited for a single instrument; the human voice.

The most important thing to remember about chant notation is that it is meant as a visual reminder. It was always intended that chant be learned by ear and the neumes used to remind someone of what they have already heard. It is why solfege and ear training are so important to chant. If you can’t sing intervals then chant will be a challenge.

Right, but right away it’s "how long do I hold that?
cause the untrained choir member just got used to “that round note with the dot is 3 beats”.
speaking for our choir, most everything is written in 4 part harmony. The instrumental score may or may not be written in also. “Adoremus Te Christe” for instance has the vocal parts written. It’s easy to follow. There’s the pitch, there’s the timing, the dynamics.
And I’m not saying it’s any easier than chant notation, it’s simply just one more thing a director would have to bring people up to speed with.

For instance at Easter the priest and the choir do a chant for the Go in Peace Alleluia and Thanks be to God Alleluia at the end of mass. The director simply has this written out in musical language everyone is familiar with.

 

[HelenRose]

Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions?

What tends to regulate the music is what a parish can afford. Simple as that.
If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials.
Music is the LAST thing on most parish budgets.
They’re always asking for volunteers for funerals even.
Hard to be picky when untrained people do the best they can.

It is hard to be picky when there is nobody except non-professional people who do the best they can. I am one of these non-professional people who do the best I can. Small mission churches do not have the money. I would love it if someone who finds my music objectionable donate money to my mission church to move a professional musician to my little town and pay them the money they deserve. I would not be the least bit upset. I would love nothing more than to sing in a choir directed by a highly trained and skilled director. In the mean time I will offer the talents that I have – and do the best I can.

 

[ProVobis]

Also, I should clarify (even though you haven’t suggested it), that my post wasn’t intended to criticize Vatican II at all.

It shouldn’t. Even before Vatican II, most Masses said were Low Masses, without the music, of course, except for maybe a spontaneous hymn started by the priest as he was leaving the altar. Vatican II, of course, wanted more widespread use of Gregorian chant but it never caught on or gained with the typical congregation.

 

[Usige]

Right, but right away it’s "how long do I hold that?
cause the untrained choir member just got used to “that round note with the dot is 3 beats”.
speaking for our choir, most everything is written in 4 part harmony. The instrumental score may or may not be written in also. “Adoremus Te Christe” for instance has the vocal parts written. It’s easy to follow. There’s the pitch, there’s the timing, the dynamics.
And I’m not saying it’s any easier than chant notation, it’s simply just one more thing a director would have to bring people up to speed with.

For instance at Easter the priest and the choir do a chant for the Go in Peace Alleluia and Thanks be to God Alleluia at the end of mass. The director simply has this written out in musical language everyone is familiar with.

I would agree that it can make it easier to perhaps introduce, but you point out a problem of putting chant into modern notation. It unnecessarily hampers the chant by putting a rigid constraint on it that it not native to it. Chant does not have fixed measures like modern notation so the concept of a beat is almost irrelevant. Chant is broken down into phrases and a phrase might be 10 “beats” or 30 as determined by the words. If a note should be held longer, how long should it be held? As long as necessary to bring out the emphasis. There are actually different timings in square notation (*punctum, dotted punctum, bistropha, tristropha *[single, double, double, triple beat]), but I wouldn’t use a metronome to time them and they also imply not just timing but also crescendo and decrescendo.

I remember someone asking me about a chant and the conversation went this way:Musician: What note does this chant start with?
Me: It starts on Fa.
Musician: What do you mean? It starts on F?
Me: Sure, if that’s where you want to start. The music doesn’t specify.
Musician: But how do I know what note to start on?
Me: It depends on your group’s range and the melody of the piece. We call it movable Do. Find Do in the notation and decide what note makes sense to assign to Do and other notes. It’s the intersection of the group and the piece’s ranges. Think of it as transposition without changing the written notes.
Musician: What a screwy way to write music.
Me:
The whole point is that chant notation is really a mnemonic device. It is really more of a sketch of the movement and shape of the music than an architectural blueprint. As long as people try to apply rigid structure to chant they will miss some of the fluid beauty of this unique musical form. I had to deprogram years of training and music theory to finally understand the beauty of the utter simplicity of chant.

One of the other things you allude to is that chant is not intended to be sung with accompaniment or as polyphony. The reason it is structured the way it is has to do with the fact that a human cannot produce multiple notes at once and generally has a relatively limited range. Once you get to multi part polyphony, square notation doesn’t make as much sense. Relative pitch and fixed pitches instruments don’t work well together unless your instrumentalist can transpose on the fly. When you are constructing melodic structures you need timing to get multiple voices to resolve in a predictable matter. Chant has none of those requirements and hence the reason for the simpler (i.e. less rigid) “rules” around square notation.

 

[Generic_Name]

It is hard to be picky when there is nobody except non-professional people who do the best they can. I am one of these non-professional people who do the best I can. Small mission churches do not have the money. I would love it if someone who finds my music objectionable donate money to my mission church to move a professional musician to my little town and pay them the money they deserve. I would not be the least bit upset. I would love nothing more than to sing in a choir directed by a highly trained and skilled director. In the mean time I will offer the talents that I have – and do the best I can.

One need not be a professional - or have a large budget - to select music that is liturgically appropriate. As discussed earlier, there is plenty of public domain music available, and the guidance given by the Church concerning the liturgy is also freely available.

This isn’t about how professionally the music is prepared or executed. The OP’s concern (and that of subsequent posters) was about the appropriateness of the selections.

 

[HelenRose]

One need not be a professional - or have a large budget - to select music that is liturgically appropriate. As discussed earlier, there is plenty of public domain music available, and the guidance given by the Church concerning the liturgy is also freely available.

This isn’t about how professionally the music is prepared or executed. The OP’s concern (and that of subsequent posters) was about the appropriateness of the selections.

I personally don’t care for guitar masses. But, the line between inappropriate music versus music snobbery is very fine indeed.

I find the comment, “If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials” crosses that line. It is insulting, unkind and ungrateful on many different levels.

Simple music- contemporary or otherwise - well done by ordinary, non professional musicians is more appropriate that having these same musicians perform great music poorly.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Great post. Don’t let bad liturgy get you down, seek out places where it’s done correctly and continue to ask questions at places where it isn’t.

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but stick to the EF if possible. There are proper OF Masses out there, but can be difficult to find depending on your location. But even in less than ideal Masses, our Lord is present! (And you can always use the opportunity to pray for the souls in Purgatory.)

I’ll have to try that Purgatory prayer.

That being said, I love the EF anyway, I just wish it were easier to find. I don’t know what I’m going to do after next week when the seminary closes for the summer.

 

[Phemie]

This is only true if we insist that contemporary music and instruments are an absolute must. I know of at least one US bishop who has recently ordered all parishes to learn at least basic chant. It’s not difficult. Anyone can do it and as Vatican II made clear, it’s the Church’s preference. If a parish is struggling to find good contemporary music / music leaders, why not go with the cheap option that is chant? As the OP pointed out in a later post, the Orthodox have no issue with it. Even the smallest poorest mission chants the entire liturgy every single time without fail… And it’s beautiful.

As much as I wish this were true, it truly depends where you are. The Orthodox have always had it so it’s in their bones, so to speak. We have most of two generations who’ve never heard it. I don’t know who our choir would find to help them with chant. The only person I could think of was the former Moravian minister who seemed to have a great music background but she recently moved away. There is no one in our parish who knows music AND chant. Most of the choir doesn’t read music. Even the two main musicians don’t do more than strum guitars. Nobody can play the organ and I don’t think any of the musicians can even play the piano.

 

[oldgraymare2]

As much as I wish this were true, it truly depends where you are. The Orthodox have always had it so it’s in their bones, so to speak. We have most of two generations who’ve never heard it. I don’t know who our choir would find to help them with chant. The only person I could think of was the former Moravian minister who seemed to have a great music background but she recently moved away. There is no one in our parish who knows music AND chant. Most of the choir doesn’t read music. Even the two main musicians don’t do more than strum guitars. Nobody can play the organ and I don’t think any of the musicians can even play the piano.

I think that probably each parish is doing the best with what it has to work with.

That’s why I made the comment that I did too in my last post, where I don’t even think people even know what’s going on in their own parish Music Ministry.

If they’re not happy with it and they think that it should change in some way, maybe they should be the very change that they are talking about, then.

 

[ProVobis]

If they’re not happy with it and they think that it should change in some way, maybe they should be the very change that they are talking about, then.

If your preference is no music, how does one go about changing it to that?

 

[Phemie]

If your preference is no music, how does one go about changing it to that?

Hide the hymnals?

 

[oldgraymare2]

If your preference is no music, how does one go about changing it to that?

My suggestion would be to attend other Masses in the parish, and see if there is even music at all of them, firstly.

I have been to parishes where there wasn’t any music at some of the Masses–either at the weekday Masses, or on the first morning Mass at Sunday, for example.

You might find personally that you might prefer going to an early weekend Mass that does not have any music, for example.

 

[ProVobis]

Hide the hymnals?

After they spent hundreds of dollars on them?

 

[clem456]

After they spent hundreds of dollars on them?

And spent hundreds of hours changing all the “His” to “God’s”

 

[HelenRose]

I dunno, why do we find such variation?
Maybe it’s because people are… unique?

 

[HelenRose]

As much as I wish this were true, it truly depends where you are. The Orthodox have always had it so it’s in their bones, so to speak. We have most of two generations who’ve never heard it. I don’t know who our choir would find to help them with chant. The only person I could think of was the former Moravian minister who seemed to have a great music background but she recently moved away. There is no one in our parish who knows music AND chant. Most of the choir doesn’t read music. Even the two main musicians don’t do more than strum guitars. Nobody can play the organ and I don’t think any of the musicians can even play the piano.

It has to begin with children. Several things need to come into play. Church’s should not only have a strong Religious Education program but a strong music program as well.

Another important thing to think is how much support do musicians receive from the congregation. It is not pleasant to do the best you can and be faced with snide remarks - some of the remarks behind your back and some even to your face.

We are fortunate with our congregation. Our little mission church went for several years without any music at all. We now have four sets of musicians so we rotate Sundays.

When my husband and I use Latin and some of the more traditional songs those people in the congregation who like the guitar Mass have learned to smile sweetly and have managed to survive. When our Guitarist does his thing on his Sunday those of us who like a more or less traditional Mass have learned to smile sweetly and we mange to survive. This came about because as musicians we decided to respect each other and defend each another. If anyone criticizes any one of us we just smile sweetly and say, “You can plan the music and sing next Sunday.” We seldom get takers.

The congregation really does support us and we seldom have to deal with people who gripe.

 

[Phemie]

It has to begin with children. Several things need to come into play. Church’s should not only have a strong Religious Education program but a strong music program as well.

We have neither. We have no Catholic schools, they were abolished in 1998; no Religious Ed beyond a 6 week preparation for First Communion and Reconciliation. Confirmation has been conferred once in the last 6 years and that was after about 8 monthly meetings with Fr., who was appalled that the kids knew nothing about the Faith.

Another important thing to think is how much support do musicians receive from the congregation. It is not pleasant to do the best you can and be faced with snide remarks - some of the remarks behind your back and some even to your face.

We are fortunate with our congregation. Our little mission church went for several years without any music at all. We now have four sets of musicians so we rotate Sundays.

I don’t think anyone in our parish actively criticizes the choir. In fact, most people are quite happy we have a choir at all. When I came to this parish we had an organist who was the Catholic school’s music teacher. Her degree was in voice and she had an amazing one. She had no interest in having a choir, she just played the organ and led the singing.

When she left we had no music for a while. When that first Easter rolled around we gathered those who were willing and formed an a capella choir to sing during the Triduum. Most of what we sang was traditional and it worked well. But the group didn’t remain a capella, or singing traditional music for long.

The person who is willing to lead the choir is another teacher, one who can sing and strum but wants to hear nothing about what the Church teaches about music. I can’t lead a choir, I can barely carry a tune and I can’t read music. After a few instances of saying “But the Church says we can’t substitute a song for this part of the Mass, we have to use the exact words,” and hearing “I’m sure God doesn’t mind” I simply gave up. The parish offered to send the two main musicians for training in liturgical music and pay for it but they refused to go.

When my husband and I use Latin and some of the more traditional songs those people in the congregation who like the guitar Mass have learned to smile sweetly and have managed to survive. When our Guitarist does his thing on his Sunday those of us who like a more or less traditional Mass have learned to smile sweetly and we mange to survive. This came about because as musicians we decided to respect each other and defend each another. If anyone criticizes any one of us we just smile sweetly and say, “You can plan the music and sing next Sunday.” We seldom get takers.

The congregation really does support us and we seldom have to deal with people who gripe.

There are some of us who would give our right arm to use Jubilate Deo once a month or even once every two months. It’ll never happen unless we get someone who knows what they are doing and can find someone who cares about singing what the Church has told us we should be singing.

 

[27lw]

Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
**Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions? **

I don’t know, because the music doesn’t fit the style of Holy Mass, seemingly ON PURPOSE?

 

[clem456]

I don’t know, because the music doesn’t fit the style of Holy Mass, seemingly ON PURPOSE?

I’m not sure what you mean by “the style of Holy Mass”.
If you’re talking about the cultural expression of the Mass, that has many and varied forms, but all are still the same Mass.
Hispanic cultures have one expression encompassing language, styles of music, etc…
African another, Asian another, Western European another.

If you’re talking about irreverence, that is not due solely to different expressions and musical styles. Contemporary music can be reverent.