What/who regulates the use of music in liturgy?

[HelenRose]

We have neither. We have no Catholic schools, they were abolished in 1998; no Religious Ed beyond a 6 week preparation for First Communion and Reconciliation. Confirmation has been conferred once in the last 6 years and that was after about 8 monthly meetings with Fr., who was appalled that the kids knew nothing about the Faith.

I don’t think anyone in our parish actively criticizes the choir. In fact, most people are quite happy we have a choir at all. When I came to this parish we had an organist who was the Catholic school’s music teacher. Her degree was in voice and she had an amazing one. She had no interest in having a choir, she just played the organ and led the singing.

When she left we had no music for a while. When that first Easter rolled around we gathered those who were willing and formed an a capella choir to sing during the Triduum. Most of what we sang was traditional and it worked well. But the group didn’t remain a capella, or singing traditional music for long.

The person who is willing to lead the choir is another teacher, one who can sing and strum but wants to hear nothing about what the Church teaches about music. I can’t lead a choir, I can barely carry a tune and I can’t read music. After a few instances of saying “But the Church says we can’t substitute a song for this part of the Mass, we have to use the exact words,” and hearing “I’m sure God doesn’t mind” I simply gave up. The parish offered to send the two main musicians for training in liturgical music and pay for it but they refused to go.
There are some of us who would give our right arm to use Jubilate Deo once a month or even once every two months. It’ll never happen unless we get someone who knows what they are doing and can find someone who cares about singing what the Church has told us we should be singing.

Mother Angelica of EWTN said that when God wanted the mission of EWTN to happen, he looked in the barrel to find someone to do it. She said that was the only one on the bottom of the barrel.

That is how I felt when I begin going to my rural mission church in Western Colorado. There was very little music. More often than not there was no piano or organ and the congregation sang the introduction song a Capella and horribly off pitch. I was at the bottom of the barrel. The skill I have is not great musical talent - that skill belongs to my husband. My skill is the love of music and an understanding of human nature. The church was strongly divided between those who dislike contemporary music and those who really disliked Latin. I believe that this has been greatly softened in part because my husband and I participate in all the four sets of musicians. We have learned to encourage each other even though we often don’t see eye to eye.

My husband and I are converts. Our appreciation for Latin chants came slowly. I believe that beauty will always overcome the mundane if it is allowed to grow slowly in a person’s heart. The beauty of Latin can not be found coming from above. It comes across from one soul to another.

You may ask yourself if you are at the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Phemie]

You may ask yourself if you are at the bottom of the barrel.

I would definitely be that.

What I’m hoping is that when our new pastor (our Pastor died suddenly 2 1/2 months ago) is assigned later this year he will have a love of music and want something different. I haven’t seen any winged pigs around town so I’m not holding my breath. In the meantime I’m not going to do anything to alienate the choir that we have. Sometimes their director will ask me a question on liturgy which I am only to happy to answer and thus guide in the correct path. Maybe I can help them put away the tambourine during Lent 2017 – or at least put it away after the Gloria of the Mass of the Lord’s Supper.

 

[27lw]

I would definitely be that.

What I’m hoping is that when our new pastor (our Pastor died suddenly 2 1/2 months ago) is assigned later this year he will have a love of music and want something different.

This is interesting. I have read on another forum a theory that many (most?) priests don’t want to have “better” music than their neighbor parishes The priests all just want to have a roughly similar / roughly mediocre music program so no priest gets pressure to do things “better” like at St. Gabriel’s across town. I found this shocking, but it makes sense the more I think about it…

 

[HelenRose]

I would definitely be that.

What I’m hoping is that when our new pastor (our Pastor died suddenly 2 1/2 months ago) is assigned later this year he will have a love of music and want something different. I haven’t seen any winged pigs around town so I’m not holding my breath. In the meantime I’m not going to do anything to alienate the choir that we have. Sometimes their director will ask me a question on liturgy which I am only to happy to answer and thus guide in the correct path. Maybe I can help them put away the tambourine during Lent 2017 – or at least put it away after the Gloria of the Mass of the Lord’s Supper.

“Maybe I can help them put away the tambourine during Lent 2017” I really truly understand. Just smile sweetly and endure. I may be talking out of both sides of mouth here but those who really want the beautiful music and the Latin in the Mass, need to realize that complaining simply makes people dig their heels in. Besides, Bishops are sick of the argument.

I grew up in a very musical tradition Protestant church. This is how I have come to think of the two approaches: A well run Protestant service is like going up into the mountains with friends and relatives for a picnic - lots of laughter, joy and love. A well run Catholic Mass is like leaving the party and being alone under the tall pines listening to the voice of God.

There is a time and a place for praise music and tambourines but I whole hardly agree with you. I don’t think it is appropriate for Mass.

It just takes time, love and patience to get the message across.

 

[HelenRose]

This is interesting. I have read on another forum a theory that many (most?) priests don’t want to have “better” music than their neighbor parishes The priests all just want to have a roughly similar / roughly mediocre music program so no priest gets pressure to do things “better” like at St. Gabriel’s across town. I found this shocking, but it makes sense the more I think about it…

I imagine that for most priests this particular argument is like listening to finger nails scraping on a black board.

 

[Phemie]

This is interesting. I have read on another forum a theory that many (most?) priests don’t want to have “better” music than their neighbor parishes The priests all just want to have a roughly similar / roughly mediocre music program so no priest gets pressure to do things “better” like at St. Gabriel’s across town. I found this shocking, but it makes sense the more I think about it…

Well, the closest parish we could compare our music to is 300 miles away so that’s not an issue.

We’ve only got 1 Mass on Saturday evening and one on Sunday morning. The Saturday Mass usually has no music or singing but there are a few folk who’ve recently moved here who will lead us in singing a capella if they happen to be there. Of course they don’t always know the hymns we know so sometimes they’re singing alone because nobody knows what the hymn they’ve chosen.

Sunday is the choir’s day. It’s the usual post 70s stuff. We use the Catholic Book of Worship II & III (Canada’s national Catholic hymnal) which contain a lot of Haugen/Hass with some Carey Landry thrown in for good measure. There’s an occasional nod to “Celebrate in Song”, the supplementary hymnal that contains the settings for the revised version of the Ordinary and a few new (to us) hymns. It also contains all the chants of the Ordinary but that section is studiously ignored.

 

[Generic_Name]

“Maybe I can help them put away the tambourine during Lent 2017” I really truly understand. Just smile sweetly and endure.

No, that’s where I leave and take my envelopes with me. I realize not everyone has that luxury, but I would go an hour out of my way to avoid that kind of stuff.

 

[clem456]

No, that’s where I leave and take my envelopes with me. I realize not everyone has that luxury, but I would go an hour out of my way to avoid that kind of stuff.

We have one Mass with a drum kit and guitars.
I am staying with my envelopes because I am committed to the parish. The people are more important than the music.
Not even close.
And even if I did think it was an awful sacrilege, how would I change it if I ran? I am not going to church shop.

 

[Usige]

And even if I did think it was an awful sacrilege, how would I change it if I ran?

That always assumes that a change is possible. I had offered to form and train a schola and had also offered to donate funds to fully cover the difference between Breaking Bread and the Adoremus Hymnal. I was told point blank that it wasn’t needed, since “we don’t do that kind of music”. We have 5 masses in English and 1 in Spanish so it’s not like having a schola or choir that does more traditional music once a month could not be accommodated. I’m talking about a parish of 6000+ 2 here the only music allowed outside of Breaking Bread is from OCP’s Choose Christ. Two years ago the pastor insisted on Latin Mass settings for Lent (“because we’re Catholic” to use his words). Three quarters of the choir members threatened to quit if they had to sing “old fashioned” music again (despite the fact they seem to like stuff from the 70s and 80s ).

My point is that simply staying doesn’t mean you have an option to change anything. If the music director thinks that Marty Haugen or Matt Maher is the only option and the pastor doesn’t want to lose them then you really have zero chance to change things. I simply offer up my suffering when listening to the music choices and then go home and offer my sung prayers to God.

 

[Generic_Name]

That always assumes that a change is possible. I had offered to form and train a schola and had also offered to donate funds to fully cover the difference between Breaking Bread and the Adoremus Hymnal. I was told point blank that it wasn’t needed, since “we don’t do that kind of music”. We have 5 masses in English and 1 in Spanish so it’s not like having a schola or choir that does more traditional music once a month could not be accommodated. I’m talking about a parish of 6000+ 2 here the only music allowed outside of Breaking Bread is from OCP’s Choose Christ. Two years ago the pastor insisted on Latin Mass settings for Lent (“because we’re Catholic” to use his words). Three quarters of the choir members threatened to quit if they had to sing “old fashioned” music again (despite the fact they seem to like stuff from the 70s and 80s ).

My point is that simply staying doesn’t mean you have an option to change anything. If the music director thinks that Marty Haugen or Matt Maher is the only option and the pastor doesn’t want to lose them then you really have zero chance to change things. I simply offer up my suffering when listening to the music choices and then go home and offer my sung prayers to God.

This explains it better than I could.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

The Church has always taught that Chant and Polyphony are the best and only preference for the Mass.

If you don’t believe me then read the Vatican II documents detailing the Novus Oro Mass which must be said in Latin as well.

We need to get rid of the contemporary music in the Mass because it is not appropriate for it.

 

[felsguy]

This is interesting. I have read on another forum a theory that many (most?) priests don’t want to have “better” music than their neighbor parishes The priests all just want to have a roughly similar / roughly mediocre music program so no priest gets pressure to do things “better” like at St. Gabriel’s across town. I found this shocking, but it makes sense the more I think about it…

I find that pretty far fetched. I should think something like the opposite would be more likely.

 

[clem456]

One thing is for sure, whatever your preference, good liturgical music take hard work and commitment of parish resources.

 

[jmcrae]

Right, but right away it’s "how long do I hold that?

As long as needed for the phrase.

cause the untrained choir member just got used to “that round note with the dot is 3 beats”.
speaking for our choir, most everything is written in 4 part harmony. The instrumental score may or may not be written in also. “Adoremus Te Christe” for instance has the vocal parts written. It’s easy to follow. There’s the pitch, there’s the timing, the dynamics.
And I’m not saying it’s any easier than chant notation, it’s simply just one more thing a director would have to bring people up to speed with.

For instance at Easter the priest and the choir do a chant for the Go in Peace Alleluia and Thanks be to God Alleluia at the end of mass. The director simply has this written out in musical language everyone is familiar with.

The point of chant is that it varies depending on the cantor and on which words you’re using to put to the chant.

 

[TruthSeeker319]

My priest put it to me in a good way tonight. The music used at Mass should first and foremost be a prayer. A prayer that is canonically sound, and aids in the Mystery of the Mass. This prayer can (and should!) be reflective of cultural taste and form. This ensures that we are offering a personal prayer, not just a wrote one.

 

[otjm]

I’m pretty certain my word was “concerned.” Reckon I should have used “worry.”

Budget is a poor excuse, as there’s a plethora of good, solid, appropriate, accessible Catholic music available for free online. Printing costs for would be a fraction of what is spent on the bulletins that get thrown away weekly.

If “best they can” is relying on the canned materials OCP and their ilk churn out, they can do better for less cash.

Yeah - you realy would not want to use those “canned” materials, songs based on the Psalms, Old Testament and New Testament. Such ilk…

 

[otjm]

The Church has always taught that Chant and Polyphony are the best and only preference for the Mass.

If you don’t believe me then read the Vatican II documents detailing the Novus Oro Mass which must be said in Latin as well.

We need to get rid of the contemporary music in the Mass because it is not appropriate for it.

The Church has not “always” taught that, because both types of music you mentioned started way after Christ left the earth.

Polyphony as used by the Church dates to the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Palestrina, who seems to be a favorite composer, wasn’t even born until 1525. And Gregorian chant dates to the 9th and 10th centuries.

As to appropriateness, that is your personal opinion. A preference is just that; and the reality is that within, at least, the 17,300+ parishes in the US, the vast majority have another preference, to which Rome has seen fit to not even raise an eyebrow. They (Rome) have other fish to fry, all to the dismay of those who don’t like what the vast majority uses.

 

[otjm]

That always assumes that a change is possible. I had offered to form and train a schola and had also offered to donate funds to fully cover the difference between Breaking Bread and the Adoremus Hymnal. I was told point blank that it wasn’t needed, since “we don’t do that kind of music”. We have 5 masses in English and 1 in Spanish so it’s not like having a schola or choir that does more traditional music once a month could not be accommodated. I’m talking about a parish of 6000+ 2 here the only music allowed outside of Breaking Bread is from OCP’s Choose Christ. Two years ago the pastor insisted on Latin Mass settings for Lent (“because we’re Catholic” to use his words). Three quarters of the choir members threatened to quit if they had to sing “old fashioned” music again (despite the fact they seem to like stuff from the 70s and 80s ).

My point is that simply staying doesn’t mean you have an option to change anything. If the music director thinks that Marty Haugen or Matt Maher is the only option and the pastor doesn’t want to lose them then you really have zero chance to change things. I simply offer up my suffering when listening to the music choices and then go home and offer my sung prayers to God.

There is an old phrase: different strokes for different folks.

We had a parish which had a schola, and I would take those who had joined the Church at Easter to a Saturday night Mass, so they could hear that type of music at a Mass - they pretty much were not going to find it anywhere else.

Responses were all over the map. Some came right out and said they did not like it; some siad it was “nice” (in a way that I was left to presume some were just polite); some liked it, and several seemed to think they had heard a bit of Heaven. Over the years, I had atr least one who siad they felt it was a concert.

That person echoed my feelings exactly; it sounded as if one could not join the schola unless one had a somewhere between a semi professional and a professional voice; I always went to Mass the next morning, as I felt it was a bit beyond the pale. The schola had toured Europe (more than once,if I recall correctly).

And it is not as if I have no appreciation for, say, Gregorian chant; I was part of a group who recorded a record (this was in the mid 60’s) when I was in college seminary.

Some will like it; some will more than like it, and some will not. And I suspect that this would vary based on in what part of the US it occurred.

I would not oppose someone starting a schola and providing that music; I simply would go to a different Mass. I find it beyond distracting. On the other hand, when I could, I exposed new Catholics to it.

Interestingly, as best I could determine, no one ever went back to Mass there subsequently; it was somewhere between 20 minutes and 30 minutes away.

I have both Byzantine and Gregorian chant on my Pandora.

 

[Generic_Name]

Yeah - you realy would not want to use those “canned” materials, songs based on the Psalms, Old Testament and New Testament. Such ilk…

Songs influenced by bad off-broadway and hippie folk tunes? Even if the text is solid, stylistically it detracts from the Mass and is not in keeping with Church guidelines concerning sacred music.

 

[otjm]

Songs influenced by bad off-broadway and hippie folk tunes? Even if the text is solid, stylistically it detracts from the Mass and is not in keeping with Church guidelines concerning sacred music.

Maybe 40 years ago; certainly not today. At least, not in any parish I have been in or visited.

It would appear that there are a tremendous number of people who would disagree that the music is not in keeping with the guidelines.

You certainly have an opinion; And I have a different one. I find that 4 part harmony by trained professional singers singing something from Palestrina detracts from the Mass; I don’t go to hear a concert; I go to pray and worship.

So we can agree to disagree; you have your opinion, I have mine.