What Will Francis Choose: ‘Expert’ Opinion or Orthodoxy?

[Cathoholic]

Hodos . . .

That is debatable since Holy Orders itself is not scriptural but based on later tradition.

Depends on what you mean by “later tradition”.

Jesus Himself gave us the Seven Sacraments.

So if by “later” you might mean in Jesus’ first or second year of ministry or whatever, fine.

But I am going to take issue with that if you are attempting to pass off it as later than Jesus’ personal ministry.

 

[Cathoholic]

OneSheep . . .

I don’t see a reason either.

That’s OK.

You and @Hodos and for that matter @Cathoholic don’t need to be able to see it . . . FOR, or AGAINST ordained female deacons.

 

[OneSheep]

It’s in the Gospel? Where?

Certainly the Spirit was involved when the Sacraments were codified, but when did that actually occur? In the early church, did women deacons work alongside men deacons, but one group was designated as “having received the sacrament” and the others not? I don’t think that can be supported in historic writings.

Galatians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

While this does not say that “children” who are “all one” are entitled to ordination, the spirit of the reading takes a blind eye to differences between people that are no choice of their own, what they are born into.

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic . . . .

Jesus Himself gave us the Seven Sacraments.

OneSheep . . .

I don’t think that can be supported in historic writings.

You thinking it can or cannot be (or for that matter me) supported by “historical writings”, is irrelevant.

It is what the Church teaches. And She has Divine Authority.

 

[OneSheep]

You thinking it can or cannot be (or for that matter me) supported by “historical writings”, is irrelevant.

It is what the Church teaches. And She has Divine Authority.

And you are saying that by divine authority, women who were deacons before the sacraments were codified were not ordained the way that fellow men deacons were?

Where does Church doctrine say that?

 

[Cathoholic]

OneSheep. I don’t have time for this routine today.

You go ahead and think whatever you’re going to think.

 

[OneSheep]

Okay, you don’t have an answer.

Does anyone have an answer to my question?

Does Church doctrine explicitly say that women who were deacons before the sacraments were codified were not ordained the way that fellow men deacons were?

 

[stpurl]

seems you don’t want to ACCEPT the answers you have been given more than that nobody ‘answered’. I think they did.

 

[OneSheep]

I think they did.

Please show me where my question was answered…

Thanks

 

[Woodyl57]

I tried to look up when “holy orders” became an official “sacrament”, but could not find it. There may have been some kind of “ordination” for women deacons, just as for men deacons, that predate such designation.

There is an answer to this question, but I don’t know it. Do you? It could have been as late as the mid-1500s, the council of Trent.

This may help with the Church teaching on the institution of the Priesthood. Diaconate may be different. Diaconate is certainly an ordained order, but it is interesting the sacraments that can be administered by the deacon are sacraments anyone can technically administer when the need arises. I am not sure if this makes the Ordination of women to the diaconate anathema (to use the fun word of Trent) or not. I do think many see it as a precursor to pushing toward Priesthood later down the road which JPII has already said the Church has no authority to do.

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www.catholic.com

 

[Taras_Bulba]

Pope Cornelius (abt AD 252), mentions the numbers of priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, etc. in Rome. You can look it up on new advent, search on Pope Cornelius.

 

[Toledo]

What Will Francis Choose: ‘Expert’ Opinion or Orthodoxy? Catholic News

Okay, you don’t have an answer. Does anyone have an answer to my question? Does Church doctrine explicitly say that women who were deacons before the sacraments were codified were not ordained the way that fellow men deacons were?

The definition of “deaconess” itself it different than what we consider deacons today. “Deaconesses” back 1900+ years ago were similar to similar to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion today. Back then the delineation between male and females were much more defined. In the Synagogue, remember when Paul told the women to be quiet? It was because they were shouting across the partition.

Women had to attend women much more back then, and “Deaconesses” dealt with passing out Communion and attending to the physical needs of other women. The “Deaconesses” were not part of the Ordained Clergy (what we call Deacons/Priests/Bishops).

 

[OneSheep]

Pope Cornelius (abt AD 252), mentions the numbers of priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, etc. in Rome.

The definition of “deaconess” itself it different than what we consider deacons today. “Deaconesses” back 1900+ years ago were similar to similar to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion today. Back then the delineation between male and females were much more defined. In the Synagogue, remember when Paul told the women to be quiet? It was because they were shouting across the partition.

Women had to attend women much more back then, and “Deaconesses” dealt with passing out Communion and attending to the physical needs of other women. The “Deaconesses” were not part of the Ordained Clergy (what we call Deacons/Priests/Bishops).

Thank you to both of you.

So, we’ve established that there were female deacons (or “deaconesses” if you prefer). Do either of you know if Church doctrine/catechism explicitly says somewhere that women who were deacons before the sacraments were codified were not ordained the way that fellow men deacons were? Was there a proclamation of some sort?

 

[Feanor2]

I don’t think that the Holy Father is even considering that women would fulfill an identical role as male deacons. I think the case is closed of women being ordained in the formal sense of Holy Orders.

Could there be another type of role for “Deaconesses?” I don’t know and I will leave that question up to the Holy Father.

 

[Toledo]

What Will Francis Choose: ‘Expert’ Opinion or Orthodoxy? Catholic News

Thank you to both of you. So, we’ve established that there were female deacons (or “deaconesses” if you prefer). Do either of you know if Church doctrine/catechism explicitly says somewhere that women who were deacons before the sacraments were codified were not ordained the way that fellow men deacons were? Was there a proclamation of some sort?

I think you are getting caught up in two words that sound the same but in actuality are something completely different. The old time deaconesses were more aids to women who helped women, in the form of charity, or what we might call social workers who specialized in Christian Charity. Deacons were/are clergy.

Catholic Answers has a brief description:

Deaconesses | Catholic Answers

 

[Cathoholic]

Session 7 (Council of Trent) CANON I - If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema.

 

[Cathoholic]

Hodos . . . .

With regard to the use of 1 Corinthians 7:7, it would be wise to actually use this quote within context.

It was in context.

I said St. Paul had this GIFT for himself. And I stand by that.

It was right-on.

Here it is again.

Celibacy by the way, is a GIFT. It’s not something these guys are called merely to live up to.

It is a gift that was in the past, and discerned for in the future. This gift lived out (with God’s grace), results in Heavenly glory for uniting yourself to Christ in this way.

St. Paul had this gift.

1st CORINTHIANS 7:7 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

.

Hodos . . . .

Paul is addressing the general assembly of the Church, not addressing the requirements for clergy. It is speaking as an opinion generally to the Church who will experience trials and would be unencumbered by such trials if they are single.

Irrelevant. All I’m doing here is mentioning St. Paul had this gift.

And he DID have that gift of celibacy. The Bible says so.

He had the gift of “following the Lamb, wherever he goes” as the Book of Revelation refers to virginity as.

And the Church at large is always encumbered by severe trials.

The “trial” St. Paul or “Paul” as you call him, was almost certainly pertaining to, was the destruction of the Temple which would be catastrophic for Old Covenant Jewish people.