What will it take for bishops to condemn illegal immigration?

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The people are suffering in Arizona and yet, according to Robert Sorico (sp?) on World Over, the bishops seemed to like the judge’s ruling. I’ve been carded at places for looking looking very young. That’s what the cops would be doing in Arizona. Maybe the issue is pew filling. It may be politics that need no election period. You know, though, there’s gang bangers, jihadists and other low-lifes coming through illegally. At least the mafia came legally, though many kids of good Italians got drafted into their mobs in the way kids of those illegals who work hard here get drafted in, but somehow, then, we still had a nation of integrity and the mob were only in select cities. What we have now is a lose-lose situation for all. They’re foot soldiers of Mexican elitists wanting to pull our nation down so as to conquer it. Little do those elitists know, if they think they’re keeping the land for Mexico, they’re being used, too.
Rewarding injustice (not just to a nation, but to those who are productive, if able, and those who show their love of the nation by learning English like the rest of the immigrants who come from just as poor nations and learned more than most citizens to earn citizenship) is a poor example for our bishops to give us. You don’t have those who’ve violated children work off their debt by helping out at a child care center. You kick them out and keep them out until they show they care. Besides, we’ve got enough citizens who don’t care already, without needing more sending money out of the country. That’s social justice.
It's easy to say one is full of it and leave it at that. What credibility do you have to leave it at that, like you're some sage?
 
Are you and I the only ones paying attention here? The article is exploiting this accident to drive home it’s agenda on immigration.
Yes, and the religious order to which Sr. Denise Mosier belonged has spoken out about it.
“The Benedictine Sisters are dismayed and saddened that this tragedy has been politicized and become an apparent forum for the illegal immigration agenda,” the order said. “While grieving and dealing with the death and severe injuries of our sisters, we would like to re-focus attention on the consequences of drinking and driving, and on Christ’s command to forgive.”
washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/3/napolitano-seeks-review-of-release/
 
illegaldrivers.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/paul-rodriguez-on-illegal-immigration/
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I see their habit-discarded look and have to ask: "I wonder what the nuns thought about the 'healthcare' bill."  I believe politics is what's writing this off as a driving law enforcement issue.  They don't want to face the fact that those that snuck in who they welcome in are out to serve themselves.  Those who came legally from Mexico have not been, unless they're helping the illegals.  The only illegals who are not out to abuse the country are refugees.  They're OK.  

 If God brings us the prophesied Catholic monarch, who'll bring nations back to God from the grips of the radicals, then fine--open borders.  Until then, we're getting mostly low-lifes and jihadists coming here as illegals (children excepted, but they'll soon be drafted in the broken down neighborhoods that have been invaded by gangs).  

If open borders were so fine, why doesn't the Pope just have the Vatican join the EU?  He's not going to as it would ruin the Vatican.  Mexico doesn't put up with open borders, either.  They're right not to.  You cannot steal from Peter (the citizens) to pay Paul (abusers of a nation they supposedly love)
 
The people are suffering in Arizona and yet,\
I live in Arizona and can tell that people in Arizona are suffering because the stupid SB1070 has made our already-struggling economy even worse - the economy. The Latinos who paid into our economy our fleeing the state. Businesses won’t set up shop here. Conventions are cancelling and skipping Arizona alltogether. And to make matters worse, there’s a prevailing Fox News sentiment that drug cartels have rolling gunfights in our neighborhoods, like I can’t even go out to get my mail without getting shot. When Phoenix has successfully turned into Detroit and more people are out of work and there are more vacant storefronts and more home property values plummet (which is happening), then come and talk to me about “suffering.” All the “anti-immigration” rhetoric is making things worse for people in Arizona, not better.

**Before people want to praise Arizona for SB1070, take a look at the similar law in Prince William County, Virginia, and look at the nearly-indentical damage it did to Prince William County, where violent crime increased:
pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/12155.pdf#page=4
phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2010/05/31/story2.html
**
 
I live in Arizona and can tell that people in Arizona are suffering because the stupid SB1070 has made our already-struggling economy even worse - the economy. The Latinos who paid into our economy our fleeing the state. Businesses won’t set up shop here. Conventions are cancelling and skipping Arizona alltogether. And to make matters worse, there’s a prevailing Fox News sentiment that drug cartels have rolling gunfights in our neighborhoods, like I can’t even go out to get my mail without getting shot. When Phoenix has successfully turned into Detroit and more people are out of work and there are more vacant storefronts and more home property values plummet (which is happening), then come and talk to me about “suffering.” All the “anti-immigration” rhetoric is making things worse for people in Arizona, not better.
Unfortunately, I think you are right. The anti-immigrant sentiment will end up putting the economy into a further tailspin. Business will close, people will leave.

ICE could probably put an end to illegal immigration by raiding business which hire illegals. If that were done all over the country, illegals would quit coming, because there would be no jobs.

But would it help the economy? No. Those business would close, or move. It’s unlikely that the illegal workers would be replaced with citizens. If wages were raised to a high enough level to induce citizens to take them, prices would likely rise as well, thereby hitting business with declining sales. It would still probably end up closing or moving.

I don’t favor illegal immigration, but I do favor more immigration, as a necessity for economic growth.

If politicians push this agenda too heavily, they will end up shooting themselves in the foot. Illegals don’t vote, but they will lose the Hispanic vote for a long time.
 
I believe the federal government has a tougher law, but will not enforce it. Mexico has a tougher law than that. People still go down there and some even run businesses down there. In fact, that is so, despite police corruption. Police corruption can happen in any situation, as they’re people. One could slip marijuana in my car at a speeding stop, if he/she wants to.

If the Mexicans won’t come, because of the constitutional Arizona bill, hire Africans or Filipinos. They would come legally and would not increase crime near as much, if not at all.

I’m not sure what happened to the website with what Paul Rodriguez said about the Mexicans’ aims. Is what he said too politically incorrect regarding modern immigration church politics? Does it threaten any?
 
Excuse the last sentence. I got cut off by a parent, who needed me to do something that second, as I unfortunately have to live at home with two parents who rarely go anywhere, except when I’m at work. My cabin fever is high here.
 
Unfortunately, I think you are right. The anti-immigrant sentiment will end up putting the economy into a further tailspin. Business will close, people will leave.

ICE could probably put an end to illegal immigration by raiding business which hire illegals. If that were done all over the country, illegals would quit coming, because there would be no jobs.

But would it help the economy? No. Those business would close, or move. It’s unlikely that the illegal workers would be replaced with citizens. If wages were raised to a high enough level to induce citizens to take them, prices would likely rise as well, thereby hitting business with declining sales. It would still probably end up closing or moving.

I don’t favor illegal immigration, but I do favor more immigration, as a necessity for economic growth.

If politicians push this agenda too heavily, they will end up shooting themselves in the foot. Illegals don’t vote, but they will lose the Hispanic vote for a long time.
Yes, thank you. Someone else who sees the damage that it’s doing to Arizona. And for the record, for those of you who don’t live here: It’s safe to come here for vacation. Drug cartels won’t be shooting at you on the freeways. (Not yet, anyway.) Those of you who care about “illegal immigration,” put your money where your mouth is and please visit our state for your vacation while we still have something worth visiting and see for yourself the damage your inflammatory rhetoric is doing to the businesses here.
 
What will it take for bishops to condemn speeding at just one mile per hour over the speed limit?

After they condemn speeding then maybe they can move on to other lesser sins. Last time I checked both are on the same plane.

The OP’s question reminds me of Christ writing the sins of the accusers in the sand.

Drop your stone, everyone sins. Worry more about your own sins, and less about other peoples sin.
 
This is about robbing Peter to pay Paul; not about race or speed limits. Everyone else comes here legally; so can they.
 
This is about robbing Peter to pay Paul; not about race or speed limits. Everyone else comes here legally; so can they.
It’s also about damaging a state’s already-struggling economy by scaring away tourists, conventions and business. It’s also about profiling anybody who “looks” like they’re here illegal (Canadians on an expired visa, eh?) Many of “they” were in the U.S. before “we” were, and before we moved the border on them, and according to the U.S. Constitution, many of “they” are U.S. citizens because they were born here. So, it’s not as sound-bitey simple as you think it is.
 
I think the Mexican cartel spill-over is pretty frightening to tourists and such. It’s not justice to let that be.
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Profiling may happen, but you know, it happens in many other ways and it will happen with or without Brewer's bill.  Young adults will get carded.  Guys in wife-beaters with lots of tattoos will be intimidating and disturbed-looking people at an airport will probably get checked out.  Israel profiles.  When was the last time their planes got hijacked?   The Soviets once, and probably Chinese too, kept a close watch on their visitors.  So what?  If you're not illegal, you've got nothing to be afraid of.  I bet a driver's license probably works for
Latinos as a driver’s license and insurance papers must be presented by every driving citizen. Boo hoo. Illegals from the border want different rules to apply to themselves and that is unjustified.
 
I think the Mexican cartel spill-over is pretty frightening to tourists and such. It’s not justice to let that be.
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Profiling may happen, but you know, it happens in many other ways and it will happen with or without Brewer's bill.  Young adults will get carded.  Guys in wife-beaters with lots of tattoos will be intimidating and disturbed-looking people at an airport will probably get checked out.  Israel profiles.  When was the last time their planes got hijacked?   The Soviets once, and probably Chinese too, kept a close watch on their visitors.  So what?  If you're not illegal, you've got nothing to be afraid of.  I bet a driver's license probably works for
Latinos as a driver’s license and insurance papers must be presented by every driving citizen. Boo hoo. Illegals from the border want different rules to apply to themselves and that is unjustified.
The moral question is not about carding someone. The moral question is about fidelity to what Pope John Paul II explicitly stated in Evangelium Vitae.

Every life is sacred, those of the residents in AZ and those of the immirgrants. Therefore, every human being must be treated with dignity, regardless of his crime and everone must be protected from harm, to the best of our abilities. This was the great truth the Pope John Paul II taught in Evangelium Vitae.

We can have both, good immigration laws and a dignified way of enforcing them. But it will only happen when Catholics, who are the largest religious group in this country, place moral law over civil law. As long as we Catholics continue to worship our constitutional rights and argue that the pope and bishops have no right to teach us morality or pick and choose what morality they can teach, then we will have neither respect for human dignity nor the protection that our citizens deserve, because evil cannot generate good. By their very nature, they are in conflict. Any legislation that tramples on human rights is an evil legislation. Legislation must preserve the greater good, that is the good of all involved, not just the citizens and legal residents.

If we truly want to be obedient Catholics, then we must allow the moral teachings of our Church guide us in making judgments regarding civil legislation. This will ensure that our legislation conforms to the will of God. We must also insist that legislators rule according to moral law and that they support those laws that are for the common good. But remember, the word “common” to a Catholic means the universal good, not just the good of those who are legally in the country. The Catholic who redefines “common” differently, is defining something that cannot be called Catholic and that he has not right to ask other Catholics to support.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I think the Mexican cartel spill-over is pretty frightening to tourists and such.
What “Mexican cartel spill-over”? Credible sources, please? I live in Arizona and don’t see any rolling gun battles in the streets here. You know, politicians running for election can really do wonders with the Fear Card, particularly when it comes to influencing people who don’t even live here. Tourists have a better chance getting struck by lightning. :whacky:
 
i never comment on american politics but seriously this has to be one of the stupidist threads iv’e seen. so when your judgement comes do you really think you will be able to justify this stance. if you did this to one of least of these you did it to me
 
This is about robbing Peter to pay Paul; not about race or speed limits. Everyone else comes here legally; so can they.
You missed the point… You sin, probably to a greater degree than illegally crossing a country’s recognized border. Does your bishop condemn you or the blight that you’ve become to society from your sins against our society?

Why in your mind is crossing a border a sin that needs more pointing, shaking of your head than your own sins?
 
We must be very careful not to identify as sins that which civil laws identify as illegal. They are not always compatible. We must always strive to be first and foremost, children of the Church, then citizens of nations. If we put our national identity before our Catholic identity, we run the risk of losing sight of our common brotherhood.

No one understood this better than St. Francis of Assisi. Therefore, in his rule to the Secular Franciscans, he wrote that they were not allowed to swear allegiance to any nation or to bear arms for any nation. He was not unpatriotic. He loved his own little kingdom. He had a much broader view of life and man. If man was to live in peace, he had to put aside the things that divide us. Nationalisms often does just that.

Nationalism is not meant to do that. It’s meant to unite people for a common good. Over the many centuries, we have turned it around and made it a divisive concept. That’s the result of Original Sin. We are driven to take what is good and use it incorrectly. The only way to protect ourselves from the temptations that come from original sin is to follow the teachings of the Church.

In Evangelium Vitae, Pope John Paul II is very clear that the dignity of the person is not subordinate to civil law. While the Church protects the rights of nations, she must stand over nations to remind them of their duty to protect the dignity of men. Nations cannot discriminate between people. Discrimination that offends human dignity is evil.

We go back to the same point. As people who are first Catholic and second American, we must impress upon our lawmakers the importance of making immigration laws that protect the rights of those living within our boarders, and protect the rights of those who enter our country, legally or illegally, and the law must always be enforced in a manner that shows reverence for the dignity of the person.

When the language of the law, the manner of enforcing it, the attitude of those who enforce it is one of condescension, dislike, disrespect, or rejection of the person, then there is a moral problem. It is one thing for Catholics to demand protection from evil and it is another for Catholics to sound-off as if they were talking about garbage instead of human beings. Even the criminal remains a person and has the right to be treated as such and to be spoken about politely and dealt with politely and with his best interest in mind. As the Knights of Columbus said at their recent national gathering, “I am my brother’s keeper.”

The argument that we have few resources is not a moral argument and cannot be supported by Catholic moral law. We have a promise from Christ that God will be merciful toward those who show mercy. If we stand on the ground that we cannot share a meal, because there will not be enough for us, how do we justify that to Christ?

I’m always reminded of a simple story about our Holy Father Francis. When a woman came to the door asking for food, there was no food to give her. Francis went to the chapel and took the missal and gave it to the woman. He told her to sell it and buy food. The brothers asked him why he has done such a thing and questioned the morality of it. Francis responded that Christ had revealed to him that “our mother may never be allowed to go hungry, as long as we have something to offer.” The ordained brothers complained, because they were unable to celebrate mass. Francis told them that they had joined the order not to be priests, but to be brothers. A brother must always give even if he goes without. The mass was a non-issue for him, because the brothers could walk the five miles to the nearest town and attend a mass celebrated by a priest at the Benedictine abbey. It was cold and the trek was not easy, because of the snow.

When Elizabeth Ann Seton arrived in Emmitsburg to found her new school, the building was incomplete. It was winter. She had five young children. The first night there, it snowed. Her children were snowed on. One of her children died as a result. She asked God if she had the right to impose such poverty on her children. The revelation that came back to her was that Mary had surrendered the life of her son for the sake of the world. From that moment on, Elizabeth never again feared sacrificing herself or her children. Two more of her children would eventually die, as well as a young sister-in-law who was orphaned and entrusted to her care. They all died as a result of the hardship that they endured for the sake of charity.

When Elizabeth’s case came up for canonization, there was a missing miracle. She was a blessed, but the law required one more miracle. After much reflection and prayer, Pope Paul VI decided that the missing miracle had already been granted. That miracle was Elizabeth’s great charity toward perfect strangers, most of whom were non-believers and even enemies of the Church. Thus, he canonized her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Why in your mind is crossing a border a sin that needs more pointing, shaking of your head than your own sins?
I must have missed that post. When did foolishmortal claim that “crossing a border [is] a sin that needs more pointing, shaking of [the] head than [his] own?”

Perhaps fm did not articulate it well, and perhaps I will not either, but he may be referring to the irony of the social injustice caused not just domestically (especially to those legally here – from many countries, not to mention non-immigrants), but to those very people who are undocumented. I think fm might have been referring to the role that the bishops want to have, claim to have, with regard to a country’s policies which in their view may or may not promote social justice. But of course, all such views and opinions depend on accuracy of full information of all the factors involved: conditions driving emigration from, immigration to, as well as conditions resulting from illegal entry into another country.

The current illegal immigration -wink-wink- NON-policy is a default situation which can only be described as the result of many-layered co-dependencies which perpetuate grave injustice for poor people living in Mexico yet wanting opportunity more closely resembling what is possible in a country just miles from them. It promotes capital corruption, greed, and power by wealthy Mexican politicians and businessmen, and by wealthy U.S. politicians and businessmen. How anyone can look himself or herself in the mirror and honestly call this “social justice” is just beyond me. The more that poor Mexicans view their only option as escape northward, the more that the corrupt economic system which is punitive toward mobility into the middle class, wins. The more the perception (and reality) is that there are no choices for poor Mexicans except illegal immigration to the States, the more Calderon, Fox before him, and all their gang benefit by the billions of American dollars sent south by those illegally here, to continue to fuel their immorally based economic system, and importantly, the less pressure these leaders feel to provide conditions liberating Mexican citizens from their dehumanizing poverty. It is one of the most shameful Cooperation With Evil examples in the modern age.

And for anyone who wants to rationalize support for illegal immigration as a stop-gap “social justice” measure, the point is, it stops nothing and gaps nothing. It supports evil.

But at least finally someone has posted in a Catholic magazine some of the points a few of us have been making for many years. The suggestions may be imperfect, but i.m.o. they are far, far more along the lines of honest, genuine, non-rationalizing social justice than the morally and practically dysfunctional reality now operating.

americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=10278
 
Folks on this thread need to stop posting and go back and read Br. Jr.'s posts. He is the one giving us wisdom on this subject. I notice Foolishmortal, for instance, doesn’t seem to be responding to his posts. . . .

Brother is giving us the teachings us the Church and trying to teach the Charity of Christ.

Open your eyes!!
 
The problem that I see in this thread, as in many on CAF, is that the faithful are redefining the roles of the bishops. Among the many duties and rights of a bishop one of them is to speak to the people of God [that includes everyone] and point out pitfalls in our reasoning, including our civil laws. We want to democratize Catholicism. That’s immoral.

The Church has already stated that democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself. She has stated that the faithful cannot protect democracy over morality. The lay faithful have a duty to use democracy to push forward the Christian agenda, not the personal agenda or the agenda of citizens. All things must serve the vision and mission of the Church, not the other way around.

To question whether or not the bishops have a right to speak about civil legislation borders on arrogance and defiance. The Apostles often challenged civil law and called it into question. This made them very unpopular with the political powers of the time. That’s why most of them died martyrs. They were the discordant voices in the marketplace.

The feeling that one gets from this thread is that there is a desire to regulate what the Apostles may say, to whom they may say it and when they may say it. Nothing can be more contrary to Christian tradition. Speaking of Christian tradition, it has always been part of our Christian tradition, to yield to the voice of the bishop. Even during the Dark Ages, when the hierarchy often abused its civil and ecclesial power, there were two kinds of people: those who obeyed and those who simply drifted away from the Church. However, there was an acknowledgement that the faithful had no right to dictate to the hierarchy. One either complied or left the Church. In one of his many writings St. Francis wrote that even when the hierarchy was wrong, the faithful were to obey, because obedience is always pleasing to God and man. Even Aquinas admitted that there was only one condition under which one could deny obedience, that is when one is asked to commit a sin.

We have to be careful here. St. Francis de Sales, in his famous work, Introduction to the Devout Life, reminds us that it is the Church that defines what is sin, not the individual. St. Alphonsus Ligouri made it very clear what is and is not sinful. The bishops’ position on immigration does not meet Alphonsus’ criteria for sin. That being the case, there is no justification for our dissent on the matter.

The question on the table should be, how do we legislate in compliance with our Catholic laws, not how do we modify our Catholic laws to protect our legislation. We have a tendency to elevate our civil laws over our ecclesial laws. As St. Vincent de Paul said, “First and foremost, be children of the Church.” The Church cannot be separated from the bishops. Without bishops, there is no Church.

We do not have to agree with them. But we may not dissent. They need not make Ex-Cathedra statements to bind us. Their authority is all that is necessary to bind us. We are bound by the rule of obedience to the Apostles.

I’ll close my statement with one simple example. In religious life, we obey [most of us]. We do not obey because the directives are infallible. The mantle of infallibility does not include our founders, superiors, rule or constitutions. Sometimes the directives are foolish at worse and imprudent at best. As long as they are not contrary to the law of the Church, we obey, because a loving obedience is always a virtue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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