What will it take for bishops to condemn illegal immigration?

[tqualey]

Hi, Pnewton,

When I went to school I learned that anecdote is not the singular of data!

Yes, but I would say the same thing about anecdotal evidence. That too is not true evidence, but rhetoric and we have enough of that already. Yes, we know the immigration system works for some. Yes, we know that some illegal immigrants are very bad and commit violent crime. However, these are anecdotes, not data.

What I found quite disturbing is that we have a lot of material out there - and little data to back up anything.

We have a monster lose on the stage - and no one knows how to write the lines!

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Markbrumbaugh,

Don’t lose heart … be patient… This is a very complex issue that does not lend itself to quick (and accurate) responses. Finding responses consistent with our Catholic Faith is the challenge before each of us.

God bless

I think the left is ignoring my questions.

 

[pnewton]

Hi, Markbrumbaugh,

Don’t lose heart … be patient… This is a very complex issue that does not lend itself to quick (and accurate) responses. Finding responses consistent with our Catholic Faith is the challenge before each of us.

Well, I am not the left, but I saw little reason for response, but yes, coveting is immoral.

 

[JReducation]

Coveting is a sin. However, we must be very careful not to confuse coveting and desiring the same benefits that others have. The latter is not coveting. Coveting involves ill will toward the other person. Oh, I’m not on the left of anything either, unless it’s something to my right

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi, Texas Roofer,

I rejoice in the death of no one. But maybe some clarification is in order.

People can die as a direct result of a lot of things - but, being sent back home does not have to be one of them! Really, you know this country was made the way it is today by people deciding they were going to make it better. They stayed and made a difference - and this enabled change to take place. All these folks leaving their own countries is not helping their homeland to immprove. Consider encouraging people to stay and not flee. Now, that may help to make a differences instead of all this hand-wringing!

God bless

There are two dead bodies here and you’re pontificating why are they dead?

 

[zdon011]

maybe the poster should simply answer

I agree. Maybe he/she got scared off by the vigorous opposition

 

[tqualey]

Apparently you hare having trouble reading your own links. There was only one confirmed death - and that was FIVE YEARS after the fact. The Somali is still alive at least there have been no reports of his death. Now, these are just the facts of the two cases you brought up.

Since you chose not to respond to my comment that identified that there was no clear cut cause and effect conncection (except that made by the deceased man’s wife) I guess there is nothing else to say.

You also chose not to address the brutal beating of a blind Canadian woman by this Somali who is to be deported. Her need for brain surgery after the beating gave me the indication that this Somali was a danger to himself and others (this was not his first encounter with law specific to violent actions). I do not wish him dead, and I certainly do not wish any more Canadians to be injured by this guy. If the government has decided that he no longer fits legal immigration status, and deporting him back to his place of birth is their answer, well, that is fine with me.

Neither case involves ‘pontification’ - just read what is there, stay with the facts and then come up with your own conclusions. Ignoring the plight of the beaten woman shows me you are chosing to ignore what is not in keeping with your predetermined conclusion against deportation.

God bless

There are two dead bodies here and you’re pontificating why are they dead?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Apparently you hare having trouble reading your own links. There was only one confirmed death… one is named Samson Chukwu, the other is Akram al-Masri’s…

• and that was FIVE YEARS after the fact. The Somali is still alive at least there have been no reports of his death. Now, these are just the facts of the two cases you brought up.

The post is nothing but pontification, because a specific crime is being used to hide from an immigrantion discussion

 

[tqualey]

The Somli was to be deported from Canada because of his repeated history of violence against Canadians. There is no hiding from an issue - this guy commited a crime (in Texas it would probalby be considered attempted murder and since his victim was blind it would have been aggrevated). This was your example from your link.

The issue on this link was illegal immigration and the stand, if any, taken by various bishops. I see no problem with violent non-citizens being sent back home - but, apparently you do. Fine. Next time this guy decides to beat up some blind person just communicate with the victim about how his human rights need to be safeguarded. This thug is being punished as an individual for a specific crime. And, if you see this as pontification on my part, then so be it.

God bless

one is named Samson Chukwu, the other is Akram al-Masri’s… The post is nothing but pontification, because a specific crime is being used to hide from an immigrantion discussion

 

[Texas_Roofer]

The Somli was to be deported from Canada because of his repeated history of violence against Canadians. There is no hiding from an issue - this guy commited a crime (in Texas it would probalby be considered attempted murder and since his victim was blind it would have been aggrevated). This was your example from your link.

The issue on this link was illegal immigration and the stand, if any, taken by various bishops. I see no problem with violent non-citizens being sent back home - but, apparently you do. Fine. Next time this guy decides to beat up some blind person just communicate with the victim about how his human rights need to be safeguarded. This thug is being punished as an individual for a specific crime. And, if you see this as pontification on my part, then so be it.

God bless

Are you speaking of Samson Chukwu, or Akram al-Masri’s which will be punished? Who says Somalia will punish anybody? Neither home country punished Samson Chukwu, or Akram al-Masri yet they were killed not punished.

 

[Lapell]

I just read this OP.
I would tend to think the bishops would first examine what causes immigration to be illegal and are they reasonable and justifiable. Should it be considered illegal in all the cases presently seen by the local and State authorities as illegal? And then there must be other fine points to examine. If prejudice is the main one thing at the root of the ruling about illegal immigration, it may not be so in God’s eyes! But you have to examine each case one by one.

@ Sedonman (Post #51): Sorry I post this one quite late, but… since apparently this question is about bishops looking into this matter, one certainly would expect they would examine all the angles before issuing a ruling, would he not? Same from the rabbis and other religions’ moral authorities… Chances of fairness are far better when each case is taken separately, even similar ones, for they usually differ in some point(s)! I know they sometimes take too long in our view, but if we want to be fair, then let’s take the time! Maybe some prejudices of ours could fall down in the course of the examination…

 

[SalesianSDB]

There are a couple of things in your post that I’d like to comment on. First off, let me just say that when it comes to immigration, it is the one issue where I don’t know where I stand. I tend to be a very strict Constitution oriented thinker when forming my political ideas, however immigration has been hard. I agree with Fox Business host John Stossel when he says that immigration is the hardest issue. It is. And what made it hard for me was some work I did with poor migrant kids over the summer. These kids stole my heart. I can’t begin to describe the love I have for those kids. And so now when I think of immigration, these wonderful kids come to mind.

One party pretends to care for them while keeping them in victim mode on vote plantations.

I agree. You can’t make people too dependent on the government or they will be dependent on the government forever.

Their kids will be practically drafted into gangs,

This is a sensitive issue for me. Some of the kids I worked with were 11 and 13 and being recruited into gangs by their siblings or cousins. And the reasoning they gave, hey, I’ve got to tell you, I can understand why they join gangs. But they witness so much persecution day in and day out for being who they are (If you ask them, how many of you have been made fun of because of your country, they all raised their hands) and they see a gang as people who are like them. These are great kids that don’t want to join gangs, but are being forced to by their older siblings and really a racist society that is telling them, it’s not OK to be Guatemalan. I’m the last person to use the race card, but I saw some despicable racism towards a cute 5 year old girl when I was with them. They go through that every day.

even if the parent comes to work hard (there must be some place in Mexico they could find jobs, I’m sure).

The argument that they are just here for better jobs isn’t a good one. Do you know that in Guatemala there is a genocide going on involving the Mayan indians? If you are Mayan and in Guatemala, you are in danger of losing your life. They don’t come here for a better life, they come here for life period. If you and your children were in danger of being killed, wouldn’t you do whatever necessary so that your child might live? That is what they are doing. Didn’t Mary and Joseph do the same when Herod wanted to kill baby Jesus? And look, it’s not an easy ride over to the states. On TV, Glenn Beck (as much as I agree with him, I disagree with him on this) was talking about how easy it was to go from Guatemala to Mexico to the US. Tell that to the 11 year old boys I was with who remember people dying in the desert or being left to die because they couldn’t make the journey. It is anything but easy.

Protestants try to bring them into their churches.

From what I’ve seen, many of them are Catholic.

Anyways, I am hispanic and am 100% in favor of legal immigration. What I want is just fairness. Did you know it takes on average 6 months for a British Ph.D to get a visa to come to the US. The waiting list in Mexico for the average Mexican is over 300 years. I remember seeing this figure on John Stossel’s TV show, if I remember correctly, these numbers come straight from the department responsible for visas and green cards.

This is just my perspective from working with these children over the summer. You don’t know how wonderful it is to love them and know they love you after only knowing you a week. They really do love you. Man I miss them.

 

[GEddie]

Did you know it takes on average 6 months for a British Ph.D to get a visa to come to the US. The waiting list in Mexico for the average Mexican is over 300 years. I remember seeing this figure on John Stossel’s TV show, if I remember correctly, these numbers come straight from the department responsible for visas and green cards.

Therein lies the rub. It’s so easy for people who have no idea what a US Visa entails, because they were fortunate enough to be born north of the Rio Grande, to say “Let them get a visa like everybody else.” Those who would need to do so know better. And those who as you say, are running for life, can’t wait for permission they know will never come.

I’ve been told that the cost to get a US visa from MX is US$300, a cost that will not be refunded if one’s application is denied. Now who can afford that?

By all means, let’s physically secure the border. That is part of maintaining the common defense and predator drones, etc., will generate US jobs to build them. But at the same time, we need to recognize that the visa system is broken, and justice requires fixing it. Per the OP, the Catholic Church should not get involved in the immigration issue unless such a correction is placed on the agenda.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tqualey]

Hi, GEddie,

Did you ever wonder how someone can calculate that the average waiting time for a Mexican to obtain a US Visa is 300 yeras? Cooooooooooome onnnnnnnnnn… get serious, how could such a number possible be accurate - albeit, it does sound ‘good’ and seems to encourage those who feel that taking the law into one’s hands is now justified because, by the time the 300 years is up, the poor applicant will be very - very - very old!

It does not look like we have any data… and 300 year waits and $300 charges just seem like fuel to add to the fire of anecdotes we are building.

A thread like this deserves better than “I’ve been told…” stories.

God bless

Therein lies the rub. It’s so easy for people who have no idea what a US Visa entails, because they were fortunate enough to be born north of the Rio Grande, to say “Let them get a visa like everybody else.” Those who would need to do so know better. And those who as you say, are running for life, can’t wait for permission they know will never come.

I’ve been told that the cost to get a US visa from MX is US$300, a cost that will not be refunded if one’s application is denied. Now who can afford that?

By all means, let’s physically secure the border. That is part of maintaining the common defense and predator drones, etc., will generate US jobs to build them. But at the same time, we need to recognize that the visa system is broken, and justice requires fixing it. Per the OP, the Catholic Church should not get involved in the immigration issue unless such a correction is placed on the agenda.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Hi, GEddie,

Did you ever wonder how someone can calculate that the average waiting time for a Mexican to obtain a US Visa is 300 yeras? Cooooooooooome onnnnnnnnnn… get serious, how could such a number possible be accurate - albeit, it does sound ‘good’ and seems to encourage those who feel that taking the law into one’s hands is now justified because, by the time the 300 years is up, the poor applicant will be very - very - very old!

It does not look like we have any data… and 300 year waits and $300 charges just seem like fuel to add to the fire of anecdotes we are building.

A thread like this deserves better than “I’ve been told…” stories.

God bless

You can look at the fees here: uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=40a9b2149e7df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=40a9b2149e7df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

It would seem $300 is not even close (that represents a single form to the US Government plus a finger print fee) $700 is a more likely number assuming you use no paid help as lawyers.

Here are some comments on time: *Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., says a Senate plan to eventually grant citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants already in the USA doesn’t reward lawbreakers. He notes that they would have to be in the USA as long as 16 years to qualify. Many who come to the USA legally wait much longer. *…

Everyone else goes to the end of lines that vary in length according to country, the prospective immigrant’s relationship to the U.S. sponsor and profession. According to the State Department, experienced laborers from India face a five-year wait for a visa, while Filipino siblings of Americans wait more than 22 years.

btw — from the same article :

To obtain a green card, an immigrant must pay a $325 fee and $70 for fingerprinting, and undergo a physical and a criminal background check. After five years (three for the spouse of a U.S. citizen), permanent residents can apply for citizenship. That requires a $330 fee, plus $70 for a second set of fingerprints.

usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-15-legal-immigrants-cover_x.htm