What will the Church be like in 50 years?

[Spiller]

What I would like to know is this…I keep reading here that the “young” generation is attracted to the TLM, as are some new converts.

OK, but they didn’t grow up with it like we did. SO, rather than it being an issue of “tradition”, could it be more of a fascination with something “new” in their minds?

I can understand where some of us “old hands” might still yearn for the TLM out of nostalgia or tradtion, or a sense of extra-reverence, etc…but what is the draw for a teenage/convert “newbie” for something that we haven’t been doing, for the most part, for over 40 years?

Have we, in a sense come full-circle, from traditional Catholicism to mainline Protestantism to Evangelical Bible Churchism all the way back to something ancient and fascinating that these folks have never been exposed to before?

I think two things play parts that are rarely discussed. First, in quite a few dioceses, the Tridentine Mass was severely limited or effectively prohibited prior to the Motu Proprio. Forbidden fruit in a manner of speaking and it intrigued people. I know quite a few people who groaned for years that they would attend the Tridentine if only it were available. Well it is available now, they don’t attend it, and thank God the groaning has largely ceased.

Second, I think the media for years (Godfather, etc.) has associated the Church with the Mass in Latin with all the bells and smells and when people convert, they expect to experience the same stuff as in the movies.

 

[Spiller]

No one is going to abandon the TLM. Once you go "Tridentine" you don’t go back usually. It takes a certain kind of person, in my opinion, to prefer the EF, and it’s deeply engrained and not a fad or a whim.

You’re talking out of your hat. You have no facts to support your opinion.

Let me give you an example.

I regularly attend both Latin Rite and Byzantine-Ruthenian Rite churches. The Byzantine parish is tiny, maybe 110 members? 90%+ of those members are Latin Riters who have long been upset with the local diocese. They are also great fans of the Tridentine Mass. Some traveled a great distance to attend the Tridentine several times a year.

When the Motu Proprio was promulgated and a local Tridentine Mass organized and supported by the bishop, there was a real concern that it would siphon away a great number of parishioners.

Less than 5 left.

I think the real competition for the Tridentine Mass locally is the Pauline Mass. Now that we have a great new bishop and an influx of new priests, every parish in the diocese is greatly improving. I think many of those who feel the Tridentine Mass is some sort of silver bullet will realize it’s not. They will recognize how reverently and richly the OF is being celebrated and be drawn back – not that all that many attend the EF anyways.

 

[PrayforMallory]

You’re talking out of your hat. You have no facts to support your opinion.

Let me give you an example.

I regularly attend both Latin Rite and Byzantine-Ruthenian Rite churches. The Byzantine parish is tiny, maybe 110 members? 90%+ of those members are Latin Riters who have long been upset with the local diocese. They are also great fans of the Tridentine Mass. Some traveled a great distance to attend the Tridentine several times a year.

When the Motu Proprio was promulgated and a local Tridentine Mass organized and supported by the bishop, there was a real concern that it would siphon away a great number of parishioners.

Less than 5 left.

I think the real competition for the Tridentine Mass locally is the Pauline Mass. Now that we have a great new bishop and an influx of new priests, every parish in the diocese is greatly improving. I think many of those who feel the Tridentine Mass is some sort of silver bullet will realize it’s not. They will recognize how reverently and richly the OF is being celebrated and be drawn back – not that all that many attend the EF anyways.

If I’m talking out of my hat, you’re being a little too rigid.

I have the ultimate source of evidence- i.e. my own life and my very large, growing, flourishing EF only parish.

It’s only been licit one year. I’d like to see what the OF was one year after it was promulgated. Not to mention, how many people are hellbent on fighting its spread for no reason.

I can assure you of one thing. There’s gonna be at least one person wanting the Tridentine Mass in 20 years, i.e. my own child (hopefully more will come later!).

Don’t look at the present and assume it’s how it is going to be. The OF isn’t going to go away, but the EF is definitely going to grow. It’s grown already, considering that it was on the margins only a year ago. Every year that passes will bring it closer into the mainstream. Why oppose?

 

[PrayforMallory]

I think two things play parts that are rarely discussed. First, in quite a few dioceses, the Tridentine Mass was severely limited or effectively prohibited prior to the Motu Proprio. Forbidden fruit in a manner of speaking and it intrigued people. I know quite a few people who groaned for years that they would attend the Tridentine if only it were available. Well it is available now, they don’t attend it, and thank God the groaning has largely ceased.

Second, I think the media for years (Godfather, etc.) has associated the Church with the Mass in Latin with all the bells and smells and when people convert, they expect to experience the same stuff as in the movies.

This hasn’t mirrored my experience. The OF is too dated for me. The EF is timeless so the whole concept of temporally-relevant liturgy is rendered unnecessary.

The only OF’s that don’t have a 70s/80s feel to me are ones that are closer to the TLM (which I’ve never been to, unfortunately), or the life teen ones, which aren’t substantive (I know because it was only a decade ago I was involved in that sort of thing).

The OF was an attempt to make the Mass relevant to the times. To be young and Catholic now means to disregard that entire thought process (otherwise we’d have a much, much, much more "progressive Church).

To adapt the liturgy to a young person’s experience in 2008 would mean the destruction of the whole liturgy.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

While I believe certain things will change, I believe they will be changes due to Popes from other cultures being elected. I can expect us to have a Pope from a Latin American country in my lifetime and/or a Filipino Pope. They would bring a certain amount of cultural changes.

Something I can see happening, with the rise of technology, is a possibility of doing confession over the internet via something like Yahoo Messanger or AIM.

 

[ethelzguy]

the life teen ones, which aren’t substantive .

So, Life Teen “isn’t substantive”? Oh, really now…

 

[PrayforMallory]

So, Life Teen “isn’t substantive”? Oh, really now…

Well, I guess mine is a subjective opinion, but have you ever been a teen at one? I was a teen at similar events, and I didn’t find them to be very substantive, at least not deeply substantive. It was more about the fads of the times, than something transcendent. The “cool” liturgies don’t produce any lifelong changes, imo. It might work for some, but if they are also thinkers, the superficial facade is easy to crack. When they get to college, and interact with the secular culture there, I hope their faith can stand.

 

[Spiller]

This hasn’t mirrored my experience. The OF is too dated for me. The EF is timeless so the whole concept of temporally-relevant liturgy is rendered unnecessary.

The only OF’s that don’t have a 70s/80s feel to me are ones that are closer to the TLM (which I’ve never been to, unfortunately), or the life teen ones, which aren’t substantive (I know because it was only a decade ago I was involved in that sort of thing).

The OF was an attempt to make the Mass relevant to the times. To be young and Catholic now means to disregard that entire thought process (otherwise we’d have a much, much, much more "progressive Church).

To adapt the liturgy to a young person’s experience in 2008 would mean the destruction of the whole liturgy.

I could see that as the OF is based on the Eucarist as celebrated in the early church. You seem to prefer a Mass that dates from the Middle Ages.

Anyone that suggests the OF has an intrinsic “70s/80s feel” are simply being disingenuous. They are attempting to vilify what they personally do not like and they cannot seem to articulate the reason(s) why.

The only thing I really dislike about the EF are those who claim it is “superior” to the OF. Not that they prefer it, but that it is “superior” – as if they are the official arbiters of what is “better.”

 

[ethelzguy]

Well, I guess mine is a subjective opinion, but have you ever been a teen at one? I was a teen at similar events, and I didn’t find them to be very substantive, at least not deeply substantive. It was more about the fads of the times, than something transcendent. The “cool” liturgies don’t produce any lifelong changes, imo. It might work for some, but if they are also thinkers, the superficial facade is easy to crack. When they get to college, and interact with the secular culture there, I hope their faith can stand.

“cool liturgies” ?

The Life Teen Masses at our parish have the same liturgy as all our other Masses. The only REAL difference is the music, the number of reverent teens present, and the homily is more directed at the teens.

Hardly lacking in substance…

 

[PrayforMallory]

“cool liturgies” ?

The Life Teen Masses at our parish have the same liturgy as all our other Masses. The only REAL difference is the music, the number of reverent teens present, and the homily is more directed at the teens.

Hardly lacking in substance…

I should clarify by saying that the music is very important to me, and that music in general affects me very deeply, especially how I perceive things.

The life teen Masses at your parish, I cannot say. I’ve never been, so I won’t pass judgment on them. The “teen” oriented things I went to in the past, though, they were pretty devoid of content. I know at some Lifeteen Masses people crowd around the altar and everything. They did that at the protestant Church I went to as a teen, and I felt like the whole thing was being severely dumbed down.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I could see that as the OF is based on the Eucarist as celebrated in the early church. You seem to prefer a Mass that dates from the Middle Ages.

Anyone that suggests the OF has an intrinsic “70s/80s feel” are simply being disingenuous. They are attempting to vilify what they personally do not like and they cannot seem to articulate the reason(s) why.

The only thing I really dislike about the EF are those who claim it is “superior” to the OF. Not that they prefer it, but that it is “superior” – as if they are the official arbiters of what is “better.”

As for the OF being the liturgy of the Early Church, I can’t say. If that’s the case, the EF evolved out of the OF, and no, I don’t desire a liturgy from the Middle Ages. The EF was first codified in the Renaissance, and it was celebrated all over the world in 1950. I’ve heard arguments that the EF is an organic development from the first Mass at Rome. Don’t know if that is true or not. That’s for another thread, anyway.

Also, as a Catholic (and a historian) I can’t vilify the Middle Ages. After all, that age was the age most influenced by the Church and Christianity in general.

I’m also talking about the Churches I’ve been to, the ones that use St. Louis Jesuits’ hymns and Haugen hymns. These hymns are without a doubt distinctly “70s.” The architecture of the Churches were “70s,” the vestments looked “70s,” and the homilies had that “70s” content (really, really vague rants about an amorphous concept love."

Might not be your parish, but I’m not just throwing stones for the heck of it (I hope I’m not throwing stones at all). I can’t lie and deny my experiences though, can I?

The Church is going to continue to develop. It’s not going to remain stuck.

If you want to know how I feel about the hymns, etc., take an Perry Cuomo song, put some sacred words in there, and there you have it. To a young guy, the “Gather Us In” hymns sound equally out of place.

 

[patrick457]

I could see that as the OF is based on the Eucarist as celebrated in the early church. You seem to prefer a Mass that dates from the Middle Ages.

If you count the 6th-9th centuries as part of the ‘Early Church’, then you could visit my blog (link is on my sig). I was just posting about the Mass in Rome before most of the (Late) Medieval ‘additions’ crept in.