What would a christian nation look like?

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I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?

It obviously would be pro life, with abortion being illegal, death penalties being rare, people being free to choose their occupations, universal health car ( though not necessarily socialism). One thing that gave me pause was how would dissenters against Christian morality be treated. Would they have freedom of speech but an inability to change moral laws? What would be the role of The Church? What would the military look like? Education? The environment? Taxation? Science and technology? What about all the other things that make up a society? Sorry if this is kinda broad but I couldn’t think how to simplify it.
 
I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?

It obviously would be pro life, with abortion being illegal, death penalties being rare, people being free to choose their occupations, universal health car ( though not necessarily socialism). One thing that gave me pause was how would dissenters against Christian morality be treated. Would they have freedom of speech but an inability to change moral laws? What would be the role of The Church? What would the military look like? Education? The environment? Taxation? Science and technology? What about all the other things that make up a society? Sorry if this is kinda broad but I couldn’t think how to simplify it.
A Christian nation or a Catholic nation? I say that because I think it would depend on which Christian religion it was based on or if it was “non-denominational.”

For example: a Catholic Country would be very different from a Baptist Country.
 
I’d look at places like Mexico, Spain or Poland. There, Catholic doctrine forms the social aspects of the country and often times, the Church takes precedent over other ideas there. Almost a special status of sort.
 
hi,
indeed a broad- topic…well-if helpful-i had college course work-with a social topic-about five pillars of society- if i can remember-please add one if you wish-well
government
church
family

the other two does not come to mind,these should be observed to show what serves the common citizen: what do you observe that supports
him/her…maybe the five pillars need to be strengthened (if only there were a little bit of effort to make the pillars stronger and this brings up a related topic of using freedom to be responsible)
:how would a complete gov. of christians work?
well back to your interesting topic, as other posts might bring it up-that jesus’ kingdom was none of earths…
as per your line of questioning-i like to write science fiction and the creation of worlds in a SFstory is a challenge/speculations of a christian world would be fine…

i had began my early education with a Presbyterian beginnings-the presbyterian idea of a catholic religious grade school…they taught certain values-that america
began as a christian nation-as evidenced by the pilgrims at thanksgiving-

, from my background, -i see today-that freedom includes land ownership-so important yet taken for granted=thanks to God for the freedom…
 
Its not like Catholic nations don’t currently exist.
Vatican City is obviously one. And, only with the unification of Italy did the Popes relinquish temporal power over the territory of the Papal States (in 1870). The Papal States had an army, which according to wikipedia, had 4 regiments of infantry (2 Italian and 2 Swiss), a volunteer Battalion of Irish, along with dragoons and artillery.

Another nation that deserves a mention is the Philippines. The Philippines is the only nation (in addition to Vatican City) in which divorce is illegal. You can’t get a divorce in the Philippines, due to the country’s strong devotion to the Catholic faith. You have to get an annulment, which is of course, the view of the Church. The Church doesn’t recognize divorce, it only recognizes annulments.

Contraception would be illegal, which I’m pretty sure the Philippines doesn’t have any contraception there (could be wrong), I know the Vatican doesn’t for sure.
 
I’d look at places like Mexico, Spain or Poland. There, Catholic doctrine forms the social aspects of the country and often times, the Church takes precedent over other ideas there. Almost a special status of sort.
What about Portugal and Ireland and Czechoslovakia?
 
What about Portugal and Ireland and Czechoslovakia?
Out of all those, Slovenia (Czech Republic and Slovenia split in 1989) might be the most Catholic in terms of actually practicing. Portugal is mostly cultural and Ireland will be atheist in a generation. Less than a quarter of Czechs believe in God, so that’s out of the question.
 
Out of all those, Slovenia (Czech Republic and Slovenia split in 1989) might be the most Catholic in terms of actually practicing. Portugal is mostly cultural and Ireland will be atheist in a generation. Less than a quarter of Czechs believe in God, so that’s out of the question.
The Czech Republic and Slovakia made up Czechoslovakia
 
A generically CHRISTIAN nation would look a whole like the U.S. in the 1950s. Back then, mainline protestantism was practically the state religion.

A CATHOLIC nation would look a lot like St. Louis or Boston during the same era.
 
I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?
I would actually urge extreme caution in equating Christ’s Kingship with temporal rule. Humanity is fallen. That’s part and parcel of being a Christian nation. We all sin, so the ideal Christian society would still be full of sinners.

What would a Christian nation look like? There are plenty of examples. Just look at history. The United States is one example. Most of Latin America since 1492 provides plenty of other examples. So does all of Europe between about 500 and 1950. Spain under Franco.

I still think of the U.S. as a Christian nation, but I’m sure many on this site will not agree. Assuming (incorrectly) that the U.S. is not a Christian nation, it’s not that hard to cast our eyes back to the time when it was. In 1941, there was a national conference on the epidemic of illegal abortion. After the Spanish-American War (in 1898), U.S. soldiers came home from overseas deployment and brought a tidal wave of sexually-transmitted infections with them. And the rest of America’s “Christian history” is not any prettier.

The point here is that human brokenness (from the Fall) cannot be separated from how we think of an ideal Christian nation.
 
A close reading of History will disclose a lot of problems existed in Catholic and Christian nations in the past. So it seems that any future one would also have its share of problems. Mankind is simply NOT perfect.

But, in trying to establish and maintain a Catholic nation, it seems two basic values would have to become part of our nation’s character.
  1. From the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.” What ever laws were passed would have to pass the test: How do we know this law is doing God’s Will on earth as it would be in Heaven? Today, in America, we seldom ask that.
  2. The two greatest Commandments: Love God and love others for the love of God (paraphrased). Standards of personal behavior should be with a view to how does this standard encourage citizens to love others properly? Do I support laws that make it easier for them to mess up their lives?
A Catholic nation, where a significant majority of adults try to live Catholic values would remember that Faith is a Gift. Not all have it. Not all want it. Those who have it have it in varying degrees of strength. A Gift has to be accepted. It should not be forced on those who do not want it. God has also given us Free Will. We are called to use our Free Will prudently.

Yet, we cannot live without some reasonable restraint on actions, especially those actions that have a negative affect on the lives of others.

At all times, the challenge each of us face is whether we personally try to live according to God’s expectations or whether we seek to make laws that make it easier for us to ignore God. Regardless of how loose the laws, we should always be free to follow God.
 
I’d look at places like Mexico, Spain or Poland.
There, Catholic doctrine forms the social aspects of the country and often times, the Church takes precedent over other ideas there. Almost a special status of sort.
The true miracle in Poland is that TFR is 1.32 (#212 in the world) while abortion is illegal.

Oh, and 3 million economic emigrants to UK/Ireland since 2004 (starting from the level of 38 million).

Plus: 2 hours of Catholic religious instruction per week during all 15 years of education (in state schools!), half of kids finishing school cannot list persons of Trinity.
 
The true miracle in Poland is that TFR is 1.32 (#212 in the world) while abortion is illegal.
What about the rates of abortion in Latin America, where almost every country is Catholic and abortion is illegal? Per capita, the rates are higher than those in the U.S. and Canada, where it’s legal.

Should we use TFR to describe how Catholic a country is? Absolutely not. Fertility rates in a country drop after it industrializes. That happened in every country, well before abortion became legal.

I think there’s a big problem for this issue. Prior to industrialization, most people were farmers or agriculture workers. Having more kids meant getting more income. That was true over the entire course of Christian history until the 19th century, when for the first time, women could independently get income by working in a factory (look at the Lowell Mill Girls, who left farms to work in textile factories, for example – the same thing going on in China and Bangladesh today).

Prior to industrialization, the world was a very different place for women. In the earliest days of Christianity, the Church provided income for virgins and widows, who didn’t need to get married as a result. Otherwise, under the Julian laws of the Roman empire, virgins – both men and women – were heavily penalized, as were young widows who didn’t get married. The Roman Empire needed babies – and they forced women to become mothers. The city of Rome itself didn’t have enough babies to keep the population up, and depended on immigration to do so.

Child-bearing was a risky business for women in the ancient world. Just think of the number of episiotomies that women today get… now imagine that in the ancient world, prior to modern surgery, germ theory, or antibacterials. Women often died young, and men would frequently remarry, resulting in an often-large difference in age between husbands and wives. Only rich girls got educated, and most did not. Roman law only required that a wife had already had a period, and even marriages to prepubescent girls could be validated if it was later consummated after her first menses.

Christianity offered a different life for women. According to a study by Rodney Stark, Christian women in the Roman Empire were significantly less likely to be married by age 18 than were pagan women. Looking at the Church Fathers, many of them talk about orders of widows and orders of virgins, which suggests that the Church offered a reprise from the Russian Roulette of childbearing. Christian women, devoting themselves to Christ, had greater opportunity for learning than pagan women did.

One example of how women refraining from childbearing were admired in the ancient Christian world is the second-century “novela,” The Acts of Paul and Thecla. St. Thecla (recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church) was celebrated as a heroine for refusing to get married, and for her passionate devotion to Christ. People tried to force her to marry, but she refused, and stayed a virgin. That novela was extremely popular in early Christianity, to the point that devotion to St. Thecla is found extensively in archaeology of later centuries.

I take Thecla as a stark example of how wrong it is to say that TFR is a way to measure Catholicism. I think St. Thecla could be used in modern times to share the story of an ancient super-heroine saint who refused to use her body sexually as expected by the society in which she lived. In modern times, look at how teenage girls are pressured to “pay for love” by having sex by mainstream culture. Thecla could be an example of a strong woman who didn’t bow to that bargain, but who embraced the love of Christ and who walked her own path.

Overall, I don’t think Catholics should pressure women to get married and have kids. I think we should use Ignatian spirituality instead: asking what someone truly wants with their life, and finding the want that takes them to God. Too often, the pro-life movement in particular has suggested that having a big family is a sign of true devotion to the faith. To me, that looks like we’re becoming the Roman Emperors again, pressuring women to become mothers when they don’t feel the calling. Rejecting that calling has too often been presented as a black/white choice between becoming a big-family Catholic or a single Atheist. Thecla (and modern NFP) shows that a single, non-fertile person can be totally devoted to holiness.
 
Should we use TFR to describe how Catholic a country is? Absolutely not. Fertility rates in a country drop after it industrializes. That happened in every country, well before abortion became legal.
Funnily enough, back in 1980s Poland was more industrialized than it is now (as % of GDP), and TFR was 2.3 (while on-demand abortion was legal).

Catholic Church has had enormous influence on Polish politics over the last 25 years (Suffice to say that Polish government for the last 25 years has held regular meetings with the Polish conference of bishops.) Over this time, Poland has entered a demographic free-fall, combined with massive economic emigration of people under 35. The remaining young population is seeing an increasing tax burden caused by societal aging, which will drive more emigration in the future. In short, after 25 years of “pro-life” state policy, Poland is in worse demographic situation than countries such as Sweden or Germany (which are supposedly dieing off due to abortion etc.), not to mention France.

What is the response of Polish bishops to the demographic crisis? Last year they launched a campaign to outlaw IVF.
 
The true miracle in Poland is that TFR is 1.32 (#212 in the world) while abortion is illegal.

Oh, and 3 million economic emigrants to UK/Ireland since 2004 (starting from the level of 38 million).

Plus: 2 hours of Catholic religious instruction per week during all 15 years of education (in state schools!), half of kids finishing school cannot list persons of Trinity.
Wow, that truly is impressive.
What about the rates of abortion in Latin America, where almost every country is Catholic and abortion is illegal? Per capita, the rates are higher than those in the U.S. and Canada, where it’s legal.

Should we use TFR to describe how Catholic a country is? Absolutely not. Fertility rates in a country drop after it industrializes. That happened in every country, well before abortion became legal.

I think there’s a big problem for this issue. Prior to industrialization, most people were farmers or agriculture workers. Having more kids meant getting more income. That was true over the entire course of Christian history until the 19th century, when for the first time, women could independently get income by working in a factory (look at the Lowell Mill Girls, who left farms to work in textile factories, for example – the same thing going on in China and Bangladesh today).

Prior to industrialization, the world was a very different place for women. In the earliest days of Christianity, the Church provided income for virgins and widows, who didn’t need to get married as a result. Otherwise, under the Julian laws of the Roman empire, virgins – both men and women – were heavily penalized, as were young widows who didn’t get married. The Roman Empire needed babies – and they forced women to become mothers. The city of Rome itself didn’t have enough babies to keep the population up, and depended on immigration to do so.

Child-bearing was a risky business for women in the ancient world. Just think of the number of episiotomies that women today get… now imagine that in the ancient world, prior to modern surgery, germ theory, or antibacterials. Women often died young, and men would frequently remarry, resulting in an often-large difference in age between husbands and wives. Only rich girls got educated, and most did not. Roman law only required that a wife had already had a period, and even marriages to prepubescent girls could be validated if it was later consummated after her first menses.

Christianity offered a different life for women. According to a study by Rodney Stark, Christian women in the Roman Empire were significantly less likely to be married by age 18 than were pagan women. Looking at the Church Fathers, many of them talk about orders of widows and orders of virgins, which suggests that the Church offered a reprise from the Russian Roulette of childbearing. Christian women, devoting themselves to Christ, had greater opportunity for learning than pagan women did.

One example of how women refraining from childbearing were admired in the ancient Christian world is the second-century “novela,” The Acts of Paul and Thecla. St. Thecla (recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church) was celebrated as a heroine for refusing to get married, and for her passionate devotion to Christ. People tried to force her to marry, but she refused, and stayed a virgin. That novela was extremely popular in early Christianity, to the point that devotion to St. Thecla is found extensively in archaeology of later centuries.

I take Thecla as a stark example of how wrong it is to say that TFR is a way to measure Catholicism. I think St. Thecla could be used in modern times to share the story of an ancient super-heroine saint who refused to use her body sexually as expected by the society in which she lived. In modern times, look at how teenage girls are pressured to “pay for love” by having sex by mainstream culture. Thecla could be an example of a strong woman who didn’t bow to that bargain, but who embraced the love of Christ and who walked her own path.

Overall, I don’t think Catholics should pressure women to get married and have kids. I think we should use Ignatian spirituality instead: asking what someone truly wants with their life, and finding the want that takes them to God. Too often, the pro-life movement in particular has suggested that having a big family is a sign of true devotion to the faith. To me, that looks like we’re becoming the Roman Emperors again, pressuring women to become mothers when they don’t feel the calling. Rejecting that calling has too often been presented as a black/white choice between becoming a big-family Catholic or a single Atheist. Thecla (and modern NFP) shows that a single, non-fertile person can be totally devoted to holiness.
The chance of a country without extensive prophylactic/contraceptive use, without extensive sterilization and without extensive abortion to have a TFR below 2 is incredibly small, you’d have to have most women abstaining from having children before marriage and a women marrying after thirty, even then you might not manage to get below 2.0 unless you had celibacy pervasive in society in addition to the prior stuff.

Oh and by the way it wasn’t just the city of Rome that had more people dying than being born, the vast majority of cities before industrialization began wre like that as mortality was far higher in cities than the countryside.
 
I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?

It obviously would be pro life, with abortion being illegal, death penalties being rare, people being free to choose their occupations, universal health car ( though not necessarily socialism). One thing that gave me pause was how would dissenters against Christian morality be treated. Would they have freedom of speech but an inability to change moral laws? What would be the role of The Church? What would the military look like? Education? The environment? Taxation? Science and technology? What about all the other things that make up a society? Sorry if this is kinda broad but I couldn’t think how to simplify it.
A “Christian” nation would be a war torn mess.
“Catholic” nation I’d look to theocratic France
 
A “Christian” nation would be a war torn mess.
“Catholic” nation I’d look to theocratic France
I’m no fan of the notion of Christendom. Look at my prior posts here. But I will say that you need to look at other Catholic nations to really understand history. Look at El Salvador, whose bishop of San Salvador died at the hands of right-wingers for daring to speak out against the repression and human rights violations of the conservative government. Here is Wikipedia’s description of his assassination:
"Romero was shot on 24 March 1980 while celebrating Mass,[18][19] at a small chapel located in a hospital called “La Divina Providencia”,[20] one day after a sermon in which he had called on Salvadoran soldiers, as Christians, to obey God’s higher order and to stop carrying out the government’s repression and violations of basic human rights. As soon as he finished his sermon, Romero proceeded to the middle of the altar and at that moment he was shot.[21]According to an audio-recording of the Mass, he was shot while elevating the chalice at the end of the Eucharistic rite."

Please don’t disrespect these kinds of martyrs by associating them with the bloody right wing of Franco or the various monarchies of Europe. I’m a theocrat through and through – and the only king I recognize is Jesus Christ. Just because of how you were raised, don’t assume the rest of us are remotely willing to trust a Chrisitan government. Sure, on this forum, you’ll hear plenty of defenders of Franco, Richelieu, Phillip II, and the death squads of Latin America. But DO NOT think that all devout Catholics want a state like the one you describe.

As I’ve written before, if you want to see what a Catholic nation does, just look at the whole of history. Not just the worst case, nor the best, but all of it. Humanity is fallen. We always screw up. That’s been the case with every government in history.
 
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