What would an American Catholic theocracy look like?

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I think I’m going to be having nightmares for the next few days :confused:

I can’t believe we even have these fantasies. There’s separation of Church and state for a reason and a Constitution that makes this entire fantasy nothing but a dream.
 
I saw Dr Marshall’s article and found it interesting. He certainly didn’t employ the word theocracy, and forgive me, but I am actually not being pedantic when I make the distinction between a theocracy and a confessional state. There never has been a Catholic theocracy, except, almost accidentally, the Papal States; simply because in that instance the Popes happened to be secular rulers of territory as well.
A theocracy, is, properly speaking, something like modern Iran where the religious authorities can override the civil ones in completely civil matters. Catholicism has never desired such a society.

All that being said, had England remained a Catholic country, her American colonies would have been Catholic too, and, I suspect, would have reflected the peculiarly English parliamentary system along with Catholicism as the established faith. This is extremely difficult to find an exemplar for, because the last period in which the English State functioned peacefully as a Catholic one was the middle years of the 1520’s. It is even difficult to predict in what ways English parliamentary government would have evolved had the country remained Catholic.

In any case, the question is moot, because such a society in North America today is simply not possible. For one thing, there would be no way of preventing the population from voting out Catholic laws it didn’t like. Therefore, either the mass of the people would have to maintain lives of almost heroic virtue and right reason at all times–something unknown to human history–or the state would have to be an authoritarian one.

All ideas of representative democracies functioning as confessional states are utopian. It is no accident that nearly every representative democracy on earth has demoted Christianity. Democracy assumes relativism of personal opinion and Christianity insists upon objective norms. The only way the former could be brought to the latter would be a miraculous conversion of the entire population to the most devout form of Catholicism, and for the conversion to be perpetual, effectively eliminating original sin. Obviously, I do not wish to limit what God could do, but it is highly improbable, to say the least.

The incidental fact that American laws long reflected Christian norms, especially in sexual matters, was the consequence of America’s inheriting the English Common Law tradition which had been formed by Christianity. As a residual Christian mentality faded in both Britain and America, so the laws changed to reflect the new attitudes. America differs from Britain in that Christianity is still strong enough here for there to be a real battle over many issues, but it is still difficult to make a case for laws grounded in a uniquely Christian, or Mosaic tradition to those who do not already form a believing part of it.

On the other hand, the US also has the advantage of the authority invested in individual states; and it is perfectly possible that some states may retain, or even regain, a stronger Christian ethos. It is true as well, that an increase in the number of serious Catholics could have some impact upon votes, and hence law. But even were this to be the case, it would always be fragile, because another future less devout group could overturn the laws again.

The idea of a truly Catholic American society reminds me a bit of an article written in 1976 on the premise that the Revolution had failed. Queen Victoria at a rodeo, George V opening the Panama Canal. Counterfactual speculation can be great fun, but it can’t change reality. As St Paul tells us, the truth is that “here we have no abiding city.”
 
I would like to point out that due to the manner Lawrence v. Texus struck down Bowers that morality can no longer be used as the basis for laws (meaning bestiality and adult incest will inevitably become legal as the reasons for those is morality).

If for a time the US became intensely Catholic it could enshrine certain things in the Constitution (such as human life begins at conception)
 
I saw Dr Marshall’s article and found it interesting. He certainly didn’t employ the word theocracy, and forgive me, but I am actually not being pedantic when I make the distinction between a theocracy and a confessional state. **There never has been a Catholic theocracy, except, almost accidentally, the Papal States; simply because in that instance the Popes happened to be secular rulers of territory as well.**A theocracy, is, properly speaking, something like modern Iran where the religious authorities can override the civil ones in completely civil matters. Catholicism has never desired such a society.

All that being said, had England remained a Catholic country, her American colonies would have been Catholic too, and, I suspect, would have reflected the peculiarly English parliamentary system along with Catholicism as the established faith. This is extremely difficult to find an exemplar for, because the last period in which the English State functioned peacefully as a Catholic one was the middle years of the 1520’s. It is even difficult to predict in what ways English parliamentary government would have evolved had the country remained Catholic.

In any case, the question is moot, because such a society in North America today is simply not possible. For one thing, there would be no way of preventing the population from voting out Catholic laws it didn’t like. Therefore, either the mass of the people would have to maintain lives of almost heroic virtue and right reason at all times–something unknown to human history–or the state would have to be an authoritarian one.

All ideas of representative democracies functioning as confessional states are utopian. It is no accident that nearly every representative democracy on earth has demoted Christianity. Democracy assumes relativism of personal opinion and Christianity insists upon objective norms. The only way the former could be brought to the latter would be a miraculous conversion of the entire population to the most devout form of Catholicism, and for the conversion to be perpetual, effectively eliminating original sin. Obviously, I do not wish to limit what God could do, but it is highly improbable, to say the least.

The incidental fact that American laws long reflected Christian norms, especially in sexual matters, was the consequence of America’s inheriting the English Common Law tradition which had been formed by Christianity. As a residual Christian mentality faded in both Britain and America, so the laws changed to reflect the new attitudes. America differs from Britain in that Christianity is still strong enough here for there to be a real battle over many issues, but it is still difficult to make a case for laws grounded in a uniquely Christian, or Mosaic tradition to those who do not already form a believing part of it.

On the other hand, the US also has the advantage of the authority invested in individual states; and it is perfectly possible that some states may retain, or even regain, a stronger Christian ethos. It is true as well, that an increase in the number of serious Catholics could have some impact upon votes, and hence law. But even were this to be the case, it would always be fragile, because another future less devout group could overturn the laws again.

The idea of a truly Catholic American society reminds me a bit of an article written in 1976 on the premise that the Revolution had failed. Queen Victoria at a rodeo, George V opening the Panama Canal. Counterfactual speculation can be great fun, but it can’t change reality. As St Paul tells us, the truth is that “here we have no abiding city.”
*How *can that be called an accident?:rolleyes:
 
This is a fantasy. This entire idea is illegal!

We have a Constitution that prohibits the state from interfering with religion and prevents religion from interfering with the state. Although both sides are guilty of violating it.

The Church with its war on social issues and Obama on contraception. Both are wrong.

And further I would rather not exist than live under a Catholic theocracy or the nice looking PC term for it “confessional state.”

This Doctor fellow blogger should be under surveillance by the FBI good lord! :eek:
 
It would probably look less like Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale” and more like Austria under the Hapsburgs.

Just as a guess about what a Catholic Theocracy would actually be like:

Instead of a flag, we would have colorful felt banners made by catechism classes.

Our national anthem would probably be kind of slow and sonorous and not very catchy unless we subcontracted with the Baptists.

Blue Laws on alcohol sales throughout the south would be rescinded.

Military uniforms based on Michelangelo’s designs for the Vatican Guard.

Lots of charitable institutions, probably no death penalty.

Economy based on subsidiarity. No, I don’t know exactly how that would work.

Above-average educational institutions.

Above-average agricultural programs, based on the regional monastery research programs.

Guaranteed freedom of religion for all denominations.

Just some guesses.
 
It would probably look less like Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale” and more like Austria under the Hapsburgs.

Just as a guess about what a Catholic Theocracy would actually be like:

Instead of a flag, we would have colorful felt banners made by catechism classes.

Our national anthem would probably be kind of slow and sonorous and not very catchy unless we subcontracted with the Baptists.

Blue Laws on alcohol sales throughout the south would be rescinded.

Military uniforms based on Michelangelo’s designs for the Vatican Guard.

Lots of charitable institutions, probably no death penalty.

Economy based on subsidiarity. No, I don’t know exactly how that would work.

Above-average educational institutions.

Above-average agricultural programs, based on the regional monastery research programs.

Guaranteed freedom of religion for all denominations.

Just some guesses.
That’s pretty much against the grain for all theocracies in history (including the Catholic ones). Freedom and powerful institutional religions kind of naturally conflict.
 
That’s pretty much against the grain for all theocracies in history (including the Catholic ones). Freedom and powerful institutional religions kind of naturally conflict.
I would venture to say that the officially Christian states in history offered far more religious freedom that the officially atheist ones…
 
This is a fantasy. This entire idea is illegal!

We have a Constitution that prohibits the state from interfering with religion and prevents religion from interfering with the state. Although both sides are guilty of violating it.

The Church with its war on social issues and Obama on contraception. Both are wrong.

And further I would rather not exist than live under a Catholic theocracy or the nice looking PC term for it “confessional state.”

This Doctor fellow blogger should be under surveillance by the FBI good lord! :eek:
A theocracy is a government run by priests, a confessional state is a state with a national religion (plus some other stuff). Argentina has Catholicism as its state religion and it is a democracy likewise with Costa Rica
 
A theocracy is a government run by priests, a confessional state is a state with a national religion (plus some other stuff). Argentina has Catholicism as its state religion and it is a democracy likewise with Costa Rica
But this thread is specifically about Catholic theocracies.
 
I would venture to say that the officially Christian states in history offered far more religious freedom that the officially atheist ones…
In such cases freedom is the wrong term.
It would be more honest to ask which were the more oppressive.
 
*How *can that be called an accident?:rolleyes:
It was accidental in that the Popes looked to the Emperor, by the 7nth Century ruling from the East, to protect them. As order in Italy broke down they ended up ruling territory. Then later the famous forgery, the Donation of Constantine appeared, probably written in France which suggested that the Popes had been expressly given territory. The primary concern of the Papacy was to remain independent of secular rulers rather than to govern as such. Even the Papal States were not however a theocracy. Laymen governed too and when the Pope acted as a secular sovereign he did so in juridical matters, signing treaties etc. The greatest criticisms of the Papal regime were not that it was a tyranny, but rather that it just didn’t function very well.
 
But this thread is specifically about Catholic theocracies.
Yes and no. The article sited in the original post said nothing about a Catholic theocracy (and did not even assume a theocracy), yet the titel of the thread does say something about a Catholic theocracy.

To answer the title, it should be pointed out that besides the Vatican (and before that the Papal states), a Catholic theocracy has never existed. A theocratic form of government has exactly zero support from the Church, and never has had any support. So asking what a American Catholic theocracy would look like is really absurd, as it would be impossible to envision a situation where the Bishops assumed control of the government.

As to Christian theocracies, there have been a couple of examples of those from protestant countries. I believe there was a time when Calvin assume temporal control of Geneva. And from a purely technical sense, maybe Great Britian could be defined as a theocracy. Although that would be more accurately described as Caesaropapism.

So it seems safe to assume the discussion should be more about what a American state would look like in which Catholicism is the established religion.
 
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