What would an American Catholic theocracy look like?

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tafan said:
I do not believe this is the case. Franco was not the tyrant he is made out to be; but I see no evidence his policies strengthened the faith.
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True, he’s much much worse than his fans are willing to admit.
 
IronHammer said:
Of course there is no historical example where it has worked, the same as there was no example of a representative republic before the United States. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t work. Simply saying it is a “bad idea” doesn’t make it so. The point of this thread is to elaborate on precisely why it is a bad idea.
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But we do have historical examples.
Starting with the Papal States.
 
septimine said:
I think it would be a better place. The society of the modern world in which no one takes God seriously is a bad place. We have all kinds of outright evil promoted all the time. Abortion is one, but so is materialism and pronographic sexualization of society. I’ve seen clothing aimed at 4-year olds that their grandparents would have thought pornographic for adults in their day. On TV, most shows will have sex acts strongly implied, you’ll see pornographic ads on TV – let alone stuff for viagra. How can we do a worse job? at least the violence and sex pumped into our homes would stop. Perhaps we could encourage people to not be so greedy, or for parents to have the right to enough money that they could afford to let one of them raise their own children.
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Certainly.
If you were a Catholic in good standing:rolleyes:
The rest of us would be pretty much screwed.
 
mitex said:
Personally I can’t wait to see someone’s defense of Franco on here! :rolleyes:
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It will probably amount to:
  1. I refuse to admit that he did anything nasty (regardless of any evidence presented).
  2. It doesn’t matter how many people he killed, or exactly why Franco killed them, because the Spanish dictator killed the right kind of people.
As you can tell, thanks to debating with Franco fans before (here at CAF) my expectations are not very high.
 
IronHammer said:
Dr. Taylor Marshall recently planted a powerful and tempting seed for me on his blog, Canterbury Tales, entitled If America were a fully Catholic country, here is what it might look like….

America is and always has been a country founded on the basic tenets of personal liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In the beginning, when nearly all men had a moral compass, even if it was Protestant in nature, Americans enjoyed a modicum of decency. But today, freedom’s chickens are coming home to roost and Americans’ morals and fidelity to Christ are crumbling at a rapid rate. We are seeing the inevitable culmination of the freedom that was given to us.

I know there have been discussions here in the past about theocracies, but I feel compelled to further explore Dr. Marshall’s ideas as to how a truly Catholic form of government could provide a virtuous and respectable society to live in. I am particularly interested in how we can incorporate the more fruitful lessons learned from the Great American Experiment. Dr. Marshall isn’t in the habit of dipping his toes into the political arena so please don’t get the idea that he is “stirring the pot” of revolution or anything as seditious as that. He is simply playing out a thought experiment of what a modern day version St. Augustine’s City of God could look like.

NOTE: I am looking for an academic discussion here and not a flame war!

Thanks!
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David_Castlen:
I am eagarly looking forward to this thread; however, you guys are four pages into it and I don’t know if I’ll be able to catch up.

A note: I am a libertarian (after Catholic) and often read the Von Mises sight. An auther on the Von Mises sight presented a case for Kingdoms. Something I would never entertain. I must tell you he had a most compelling argument. I suppose I will see that on this sight?
 
Dr. Taylor Marshall needs an education in Constitutional law 101.

Religion stays out of government and government stays out of religion.

And I’d like to add our founding fathers did not found a Christian nation because they were all Unitarian Universalists, Quakers, Episcopalians, deists, humanists, and just about as secular as you could get.

The only Catholic among them was Charles Carroll.
 
Although my suggestion is not specifically theocratic (according to the atheist, that is a controversial statement), I think it would preserve both the republic and enliven virtue: merely appoint monks (who aren’t essentially clergymen, and not excluding those who were there before the monks) to the boards of corporations and cultural institutions -maybe even give them commanding shares of their assets.

This will probably solve 9/10 of our culture problems over night. But the sanctity of contract would have to be majorly breached, but sometimes a contract has to be breached when it is impeding morality: for no promise is sacred if its fulfilled on the condition of immorality. But I’m sure that this policy would actually impose few changes to present society and no expensive changes.
 
IronHammer said:
Of course there is no historical example where it has worked, the same as there was no example of a representative republic before the United States. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t work. Simply saying it is a “bad idea” doesn’t make it so. The point of this thread is to elaborate on precisely why it is a bad idea.
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I beg to differ. The Middle Ages - the Golden Ages - was a wonderful time compared to what it was given from past history: slavery ended, more freedoms abounded, new ideas exploded, hospitals, care for the poor was an official effort of the kingdoms, oh! the Music, the art, the architeture, Aguanis, Bede, St Anne, Chivalry, the Genis of scientific thought and let’s not forget the Late Scolastics and their egnition of the idea of a Free Enterprise System. No Middle Ages where the Catholic Church was the government and no science, no Free Markets, no hospitals, Aritstotle and Socrates would never had been resurected (how tragic)… the beginning of the reduction of war for ego… the great crusades…👍
 
David_Castlen said:
I beg to differ. The Middle Ages - the Golden Ages - was a wonderful time compared to what it was given from past history: slavery ended, more freedoms abounded, new ideas exploded, hospitals, care for the poor was an official effort of the kingdoms, oh! the Music, the art, the architeture, Aguanis, Bede, St Anne, Chivalry, the Genis of scientific thought and let’s not forget the Late Scolastics and their egnition of the idea of a Free Enterprise System. No Middle Ages where the Catholic Church was the government and no science, no Free Markets, no hospitals, Aritstotle and Socrates would never had been resurected (how tragic)… the beginning of the reduction of war for ego… the great crusades…👍
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Throughout Western Europe, certainly Catholoicism was the established religion. But there were no religous body that had ultimate say over secular law. This would be a theocracy, and outside of the Papal States, it has NEVER existed. The Church has never advocated it, quite the opposite, the Church has usually tried to enforce clergy to stay out of temporal politics.
 
fakename said:
Although my suggestion is not specifically theocratic (according to the atheist, that is a controversial statement), I think it would preserve both the republic and enliven virtue: merely appoint monks (who aren’t essentially clergymen, and not excluding those who were there before the monks) to the boards of corporations and cultural institutions -maybe even give them commanding shares of their assets.

This will probably solve 9/10 of our culture problems over night. But the sanctity of contract would have to be majorly breached, but sometimes a contract has to be breached when it is impeding morality: for no promise is sacred if its fulfilled on the condition of immorality. But I’m sure that this policy would actually impose few changes to present society and no expensive changes.
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What?:confused:

You’re saying that giving the Catholic Church control of our financial and cultural institutions would solve all our problems without causing major changes:rolleyes:
 
David_Castlen said:
I beg to differ. The Middle Ages - the Golden Ages - was a wonderful time compared to what it was given from past history: slavery ended, more freedoms abounded, new ideas exploded, hospitals, care for the poor was an official effort of the kingdoms, oh! the Music, the art, the architeture, Aguanis, Bede, St Anne, Chivalry, the Genis of scientific thought and let’s not forget the Late Scolastics and their egnition of the idea of a Free Enterprise System. No Middle Ages where the Catholic Church was the government and no science, no Free Markets, no hospitals, Aritstotle and Socrates would never had been resurected (how tragic)… the beginning of the reduction of war for ego… the great crusades…👍
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It sounds like you’re longing for a mythical golden age.
 
David_Castlen said:
Yes!!! Along with the technology it caused to creat. I love A/C.
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This is a key point when considering the Middle Ages. The reason why we don’t want to go back to that is because of the technological advances and the better understanding of our physical world. Who wants to live in fear of the Black Death?

Now, there were other glaring problems in those days; serfdom was not a good situation (although it became a huge problem after the Middle Ages, not before). There were many good qualities. The trade guilds were very good. More often than not (during the middle ages) the landed class were fair to their peasants. For both people of trade (via their guilds) and peasants (via the rural community, fair land lords, common lands availble for their use, etc); there were surprisingly good social safety nets. There was a great desire for seeking the truth (ie the university system was being created). Economic upward mobility was availble through several means: military service, via trade quild membership, etc.

Certainly many of the modern horrors we have seen in the last 100 years would have been shocking to everyone (eg communist and nazi genocides).
 
David_Castlen said:
Yes!!! Along with the technology it caused to creat. I love A/C.
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I hope you realize that most people (and this would probably include you if you had lived at the time) in the Medieval era were poor peasants.

That does not sound like an attractive prospect to me.
 
tafan said:
This is a key point when considering the Middle Ages. The reason why we don’t want to go back to that is because of the technological advances and the better understanding of our physical world. Who wants to live in fear of the Black Death?

Now, there were other glaring problems in those days; serfdom was not a good situation (although it became a huge problem after the Middle Ages, not before). There were many good qualities. The trade guilds were very good. More often than not (during the middle ages) the landed class were fair to their peasants. For both people of trade (via their guilds) and peasants (via the rural community, fair land lords, common lands availble for their use, etc); there were surprisingly good social safety nets. There was a great desire for seeking the truth (ie the university system was being created). Economic upward mobility was availble through several means: military service, via trade quild membership, etc.

Certainly many of the modern horrors we have seen in the last 100 years would have been shocking to everyone (eg communist and nazi genocides).
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What are you basing that claim on?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
I hope you realize that most people (and this would probably include you if you had lived at the time) in the Medieval era were poor peasants.

That does not sound like an attractive prospect to me.
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I have always wanted to fly.

You miss the point. When the Catholic church became “the ruler” life improved dramatically in all areas. From dirt poor to a roof and a floor without insects and rats is a big improvement. The reason the seculars and the Protestants have been successful in their propoganda about the life in the Middle Ages is two-fold: Currently, to compare life styles to then leaves one with a deplorable view of “back then.” And secondly, Prostestants (especially Elizabeth) told and continue to tell so many lies about the Chruch it is unbelievable. Do not doubt, look it up: the Middle Ages is Golden Age.
 
David_Castlen said:
I have always wanted to fly.

You miss the point. When the Catholic church became “the ruler” life improved dramatically in all areas. From dirt poor to a roof and a floor without insects and rats is a big improvement. The reason the seculars and the Protestants have been successful in their propoganda about the life in the Middle Ages is two-fold: Currently, to compare life styles to then leaves one with a deplorable view of “back then.” And secondly, Prostestants (especially Elizabeth) told and continue to tell so many lies about the Chruch it is unbelievable. Do not doubt, look it up: the Middle Ages is Golden Age.
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I’d hardly call burning at the stake of protestants and black death the Golden Age. :rolleyes:
 
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