What would an American Catholic theocracy look like?

[David_Castlen]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Salvation?

What salvation?

Are you referring to the Spanish conquest (and destruction of the native civilizations) that occured in South America?

Was that *great *before or after the Spanish had to import African slaves into places like Brazil as laborers because they worked too many of the natives to death?

Did you know the Pope excumunicated a number of slavers. No the Church did not create a Uptopia. But society has been very successful in making it look like the worse thing that has ever happened. God bless our church and thank it (Christ) for what it did when it was the Authority.

 

[tafan]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Was that *great *before or after the Spanish had to import African slaves into places like Brazil as laborers because they worked too many of the natives to death?

The question about slavery that should always be asked is not “why/when did slavery exist”? It is an unfortunate result of man’s fallen nature that slavery was always part of human society. The real question about slavery is “why/when/where did it end”? And what you will find, is that all curbs on slavery were almost always instigated by Christians. This started in the so called “dark ages” of Europe, where the slavery of the Romans fell into disuse throughout Christendom. And as Christianity spread throughout northern Europe, the same pattern occurred. Then you have the limits placed on slavery of American natives by the popes of the 16th century. Then you have the suppression of the slave trade starting in England in the late 18th and early 19th century. A movement pushed by the Christians in England, and to the English great credit, they expended military resources to this cause even while fighting the Napoleanic wars. In 19th century America you have the Abolitionist movement which was led by Northern Christians.

Fast forward to the 20th century and everywhere slavery has been imposed it was done so by atheist governments or by Islamic countries.

BTW,it was the Porteguese, not the Spanish, who were responsible for most of the slave trade into South America. You will find few blacks in countries which were Spanish colonies.

Slavery did not end in one fell-swoop. It has been an ongoing process for almost 2000 years. And always at the forefront, the process was led by Christians. That does not mean that no Christians practiced slavery, mankind has always practiced slavery.

If one was to pick one thing that best illustrates the good that Christianity has brought into the world, perhaps the the decline of slavery should be way at the top of the list.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Yes, a great thing.

A ‘great thing’? :banghead:

I don’t even know where to start…

I’m an historian. I get historical context, I do. I get the shades of grey. I get all of it. I can’t think of any conceivable reason to refer to any acts of mass imperialism as ‘great’ things. At best they would be terrible acts of evil that had some positive side effects which by no means justify them.

How ironic is it that a self-proclaimed “Angry Atheist” is the only one to call you out on this so far? What a sad indictment of our community here on CAF.

 

[David_Castlen]

The question about slavery that should always be asked is not “why/when did slavery exist”? It is an unfortunate result of man’s fallen nature that slavery was always part of human society. The real question about slavery is “why/when/where did it end”? And what you will find, is that all curbs on slavery were almost always instigated by Christians. This started in the so called “dark ages” of Europe, where the slavery of the Romans fell into disuse throughout Christendom. And as Christianity spread throughout northern Europe, the same pattern occurred. Then you have the limits placed on slavery of American natives by the popes of the 16th century. Then you have the suppression of the slave trade starting in England in the late 18th and early 19th century. A movement pushed by the Christians in England, and to the English great credit, they expended military resources to this cause even while fighting the Napoleanic wars. In 19th century America you have the Abolitionist movement which was led by Northern Christians.

Fast forward to the 20th century and everywhere slavery has been imposed it was done so by atheist governments or by Islamic countries.

BTW,it was the Porteguese, not the Spanish, who were responsible for most of the slave trade into South America. You will find few blacks in countries which were Spanish colonies.

Slavery did not end in one fell-swoop. It has been an ongoing process for almost 2000 years. And always at the forefront, the process was led by Christians. That does not mean that no Christians practiced slavery, mankind has always practiced slavery.

If one was to pick one thing that best illustrates the good that Christianity has brought into the world, perhaps the the decline of slavery should be way at the top of the list.

Thank you, Tafan

Further: does slavery exist now? and what kind of reliogen is prevalent where it does?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The question about slavery that should always be asked is not “why/when did slavery exist”? It is an unfortunate result of man’s fallen nature that slavery was always part of human society. The real question about slavery is “why/when/where did it end”? And what you will find, is that all curbs on slavery were almost always instigated by Christians. This started in the so called “dark ages” of Europe, where the slavery of the Romans fell into disuse throughout Christendom. And as Christianity spread throughout northern Europe, the same pattern occurred. Then you have the limits placed on slavery of American natives by the popes of the 16th century. Then you have the suppression of the slave trade starting in England in the late 18th and early 19th century. A movement pushed by the Christians in England, and to the English great credit, they expended military resources to this cause even while fighting the Napoleanic wars. In 19th century America you have the Abolitionist movement which was led by Northern Christians.

Fast forward to the 20th century and everywhere slavery has been imposed it was done so by atheist governments or by Islamic countries.

BTW,it was the Porteguese, not the Spanish, who were responsible for most of the slave trade into South America. You will find few blacks in countries which were Spanish colonies.

Slavery did not end in one fell-swoop. It has been an ongoing process for almost 2000 years. And always at the forefront, the process was led by Christians. That does not mean that no Christians practiced slavery, mankind has always practiced slavery.

If one was to pick one thing that best illustrates the good that Christianity has brought into the world, perhaps the the decline of slavery should be way at the top of the list.

Yes, after all this time, Christians have finally ended the institution of slavery in the West. Your point is well taken. Your point is also well-taken about some non-Christian countries which have had similar practices… sure.

What is left to be discussed is, Christians as opposed to who else? I mean… what the…?! Christians were the ones practicing the institution in the West. The population of the West has been overwhelmingly Christian for many hundreds of years.

Who was supposed to end the practice in Western society besides Christians (who composed almost all of said society?) Are we supposed to be surprised that, for example, it wasn’t the Hindus who ended slavery in the West? How could they have done that?

It’s also confusing when you start crediting Christians for putting limits on or even ending the trade in the 16-19th centuries. How can you credit a group of people for stopping something that they themselves started in the first place?

 

[tafan]

Yes, after all this time, Christians have finally ended the institution of slavery in the West. Your point is well taken. Your point is also well-taken about some non-Christian countries which have had similar practices… sure.

What is left to be discussed is, Christians as opposed to who else? I mean… what the…?! Christians were the ones practicing the institution in the West. The population of the West has been overwhelmingly Christian for many hundreds of years.

Who was supposed to end the practice in Western society besides Christians (who composed almost all of said society?) Are we supposed to be surprised that, for example, it wasn’t the Hindus who ended slavery in the West? How could they have done that?

It’s also confusing when you start crediting Christians for putting limits on or even ending the trade in the 16-19th centuries. How can you credit a group of people for stopping something that they themselves started in the first place?

To answer your questions, I will clarify a couple of points. Slavery existed everywhere, not just in the west. It has been, historically, very ingrained into human society.

Now, it did not come to an end all at once (it even exists today). It’s decline has been a slow and laborous process. And like many things it has ebbed and flowed (2 steps forward, 1 step backward). But from the very beginning, we see Christianity being at the forefront of the decline. Starting with St Paul’s exhortations on the relationships between master and slave.

But when the big steps were taken, I do not just mean it was led by people of Christians cultures. What I am saying is that time and time again, it was led by the devout Christians of the western societies; those who took Christ’s two commandments very seriously. And the Christian countries responded. Not in perfect lock-step, not without a great deal of strife at times, but they did.

Yes slavery existed in the west, that was largely one of the “steps backwards”. Your questions can be summed up as “why was slavery practiced in Christian countries?”. Again, the question is simple to answer, it has always been practiced. It is a result of our fallen nature.

The important question is “why did it end?”. That tells you a lot more. It was not “after all this time”, it started at the very beginning of Christianity and you can find progress throughout the last 2000 years.

 

[David_Castlen]

To answer your questions, I will clarify a couple of points. Slavery existed everywhere, not just in the west. It has been, historically, very ingrained into human society.

Now, it did not come to an end all at once (it even exists today). It’s decline has been a slow and laborous process. And like many things it has ebbed and flowed (2 steps forward, 1 step backward). But from the very beginning, we see Christianity being at the forefront of the decline. Starting with St Paul’s exhortations on the relationships between master and slave.

But when the big steps were taken, I do not just mean it was led by people of Christians cultures. What I am saying is that time and time again, it was led by the devout Christians of the western societies; those who took Christ’s two commandments very seriously. And the Christian countries responded. Not in perfect lock-step, not without a great deal of strife at times, but they did.

Yes slavery existed in the west, that was largely one of the “steps backwards”. Your questions can be summed up as “why was slavery practiced in Christian countries?”. Again, the question is simple to answer, it has always been practiced. It is a result of our fallen nature.

The important question is “why did it end?”. That tells you a lot more. It was not “after all this time”, it started at the very beginning of Christianity and you can find progress throughout the last 2000 years.

Let it be known that slavery now exist in Muslim and Buddist worlds; child slavery in Thialand is prevalent and slavery of Men in Africa.