What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

[grannymh]

I’m not an atheist as I understand the technical definition, more of an agnostic I guess. I don’t dismiss the possibility of a creator.

I would defiantly be convinced of his existence with some real communication between him and us. Not the “listen with your heart” or “look at the wonder all around you” sort of communication.

I would like a giant guy up in the sky speaking to all of humanity in their own languages, an explanation of why this all is and what his intentions are, add to that some miracles like all the deserts blooming with wheat and grains for starving countries or all of the pollution we’ve poured into our lakes, streams and oceans miraculously disappearing and I’m on board!

I can’t say that any of this would actually make me a christian though. I may believe he is god and our creator and that Jesus was divine but until I can understand the “problem of evil” (I know many people say there is no problem but there is for me) I can’t say I would love him.

Please don’t give up using your mind to reason to God’s existence.

 

[agape123]

Absolute proof of God would be in no way eliminating our free will heres why, one word satan/shaytan, obviously something got screwed up here, satan was seeing God face to face and knew exactly what God was capable of and still refused to obey/listen/not be humble/etc, and also in islam God told satan to bow down to mankind and he refused, why in the world would satan not listen to God when God was speaking to him directly! perhaps when we first see God will be in shock and awe but as time passes will regain our free will, which we always had, and choose the dark path, seeing God would belike seeing your brother or mother, will get used to it

alot of people who dont believe in God ,do indeed believe there is a spiritual center in the brain aka third eye/pineal gland

That’s a good point, plus there’s the concept that Adam and Eve (the first humans with our level of self awareness), who did have free will and absolute knowledge of him, also fell, and therefore “knew good from evil” and lost their absolute knowledge of God and had to discern for themselves what the Truth was. It sort of depends on how you look at it. I do firmly believe, however, that God has reasons for only revealing himself selectively. At some point, there has to be a leap of Faith.

And yes, I know they do. Everyone I worked with in brain imaging thought there was a center in the brain for spirituality, and some believed in God, some didn’t. I was just pointing out that there is more than one way to interpret that fact. Although at first glance it may seem that a spiritual center in our brains undermines spiritual experiences, that may not be the case at all.

I do highly recommend you read those books I suggested - they discuss both of these things with better knowledge and more scientific/theological references than I can add here.

 

[0thetrooth0]

Please don’t give up using your mind to reason to God’s existence.

I’ve tried, but i cant seem to get anywhere, I’ll keep trying…

 

[0thetrooth0]

That’s a good point, plus there’s the concept that Adam and Eve (the first humans with our level of self awareness), who did have free will and absolute knowledge of him, also fell, and therefore “knew good from evil” and lost their absolute knowledge of God and had to discern for themselves what the Truth was. It sort of depends on how you look at it. I do firmly believe, however, that God has reasons for only revealing himself selectively. At some point, there has to be a leap of Faith.

And yes, I know they do. Everyone I worked with in brain imaging thought there was a center in the brain for spirituality, and some believed in God, some didn’t. I was just pointing out that there is more than one way to interpret that fact. Although at first glance it may seem that a spiritual center in our brains undermines spiritual experiences, that may not be the case at all.

I do highly recommend you read those books I suggested - they discuss both of these things with better knowledge and more scientific/theological references than I can add here.

I’ll go checkout the books.

I agree that at some point there has to be a leap of Faith or maybe not i dont know yet.

It doesn’t sound like a good and loving God if he only revealed himself 2000 years ago.

Blind Faith is an insult to the creator/creators/insert here of human intelligence.

God can do a better job at doing everything he can in proving his existence and answering the basic questions we all have, why am i here, what happens after death, etc. Then, after all that, will have Faith. Will have Faith in believing his real, will have Faith that heaven and hell are, etc.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve tried, but i cant seem to get anywhere, I’ll keep trying…

Go slow. Spring has sprung. Even in the city, the sky can be beautiful. Enjoy. Your spiritual soul is more beautiful because it is not bound by nature’s colors.

 

[grannymh]

I’ll go checkout the books.

I agree that at some point there has to be a leap of Faith or maybe not i dont know yet.

It doesn’t sound like a good and loving God if he only revealed himself 2000 years ago.

Blind Faith is an insult to the creator/creators/insert here of human intelligence.

God can do a better job at doing everything he can in proving his existence and answering the basic questions we all have, why am i here, what happens after death, etc. Then, after all that, will have Faith. Will have Faith in believing his real, will have Faith that heaven and hell are, etc.

Don’t knock blind faith. It too can bring peace.

 

[johnnyjones]

We already have “proof” of God in many facinating living organisms on this Earth. One in particular is the firefly or lightning bug. Scientists still don’t know what makes it light up. For that matter the scientists are still telling us that the “gasses” that formed the “big bang” where always there. Actually the belief in infinite matter is similar to the belief ‘concept’ of an infinite God.

Atheists have more “faith” then they know. I embrace the infinite God through Jesus Christ. Thank you Lord.

 

[wcknight]

God has given us evidence of His existence, each and every day. The fact that each of us are the result of just two microscopic cells having multiplied several trillion times over is a miracle in itself.

Just look up at the night sky, and if you extend a hand and put up two fingers less than a centimeter apart within that square centimeter, you have billions of galaxies each galaxy containing billions of stars.

This did not just happen by accident. In every civilization, people have experienced the supernatural, but in only one God made his presense known. We know about the miracles of Jesus though the Bible, but also read about the many miracle workers of His followers through out history.

As recently as the 1960’s with St Padre Pio, Catholic miracle workers have proved to us that God exists, and the Catholic Church is the one true faith.

And IF some other faith wants to challenge this, then I suggest they name a few folks of their faith who can compare to the great miracle workers, St Anthony of Padua, Blessed Martin de Porres, St Padre Pio, St. Catherine of Sienna, or any of the Apostles.

There may have been some terrific holy folks in other religions, but there are no great miracle workers in any of them.

 

[Nicko]

We already have “proof” of God in many facinating living organisms on this Earth. One in particular is the firefly or lightning bug. Scientists still don’t know what makes it light up.

Really?

For that matter the scientists are still telling us that the “gasses” that formed the “big bang” where always there.

That does not sound like any Big Bang theory I have ever heard. But it’s a subject many people have misconceptions about.

 

[Nicko]

God has given us evidence of His existence, each and every day. The fact that each of us are the result of just two microscopic cells having multiplied several trillion times over is a miracle in itself.

Just out of curiosity, what definition of “miracle” are you using here?

I would certainly say that the development of complex organisms from a single cell - as well as the other examples you have provided - is both fascinating and wonderful, but it happens according to explicable, predictable, repeatable natural processes. Most people - except when speaking metaphorically - would normally use the word “miracle” to describe an instance where those natural processes had been annulled or bypassed by some divine agency.

In every civilization, people have experienced the supernatural, but in only one God made his presense known.

First of all, every single one of those civilizations would disagree with you. Every culture on earth has believed that their own Gods have made their presence known.

But secondly, and more importantly, what is this “supernatural” religious people always talk about? I have never heard a coherent definition of it.

 

[johnnyjones]

Really?

That does not sound like any Big Bang theory I have ever heard. But it’s a subject many people have misconceptions about.

Your right, “gasses” is dated. I’ll have to substitute it with the “expanding universe” that was always there and always will be. Infinite matter. Sounds like God minus the religiosity.

 

[catholictiger]

Just out of curiosity, what definition of “miracle” are you using here?

I would certainly say that the development of complex organisms from a single cell - as well as the other examples you have provided - is both fascinating and wonderful, but it happens according to explicable, predictable, repeatable natural processes. Most people - except when speaking metaphorically - would normally use the word “miracle” to describe an instance where those natural processes had been annulled or bypassed by some divine agency.

First of all, every single one of those civilizations would disagree with you. Every culture on earth has believed that their own Gods have made their presence known.

But secondly, and more importantly, what is this “supernatural” religious people always talk about? I have never heard a coherent definition of it.

I don’t know what definition of miracle he is using but for me I believe miracles are miraculous things that cannot happen naturally. For example if someone was healed of parkisons which no cure is known right now, that would probably be a miracle (but it could be the fact that we just can’t explain it yet)

as far as what is supernatural. Simple that is beyond nature that which is higher then nature. AKA God and Angels

 

[grannymh]

Just out of curiosity, what definition of “miracle” are you using here?

I would certainly say that the development of complex organisms from a single cell - as well as the other examples you have provided - is both fascinating and wonderful, but it happens according to explicable, predictable, repeatable natural processes. Most people - except when speaking metaphorically - would normally use the word “miracle” to describe an instance where those natural processes had been annulled or bypassed by some divine agency.

First of all, every single one of those civilizations would disagree with you. Every culture on earth has believed that their own Gods have made their presence known.

But secondly, and more importantly, what is this “supernatural” religious people always talk about? I have never heard a coherent definition of it.

emphasis mine

Supernatural: 1. of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. Source: Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition

 

[Poof]

Just out of curiosity, what definition of “miracle” are you using here?
First of all, every single one of those civilizations would disagree with you. Every culture on earth has believed that their own Gods have made their presence known.

Name five non-christian “miracles” belonging to a single religion that have passed scientific scrutiny.

 

[Nicko]

Name five non-christian “miracles” belonging to a single religion that have passed scientific scrutiny.

I can’t.

Name five Christian “miracles” that have passed the same test.

 

[Nicko]

I don’t know what definition of miracle he is using but for me I believe miracles are miraculous things that cannot happen naturally.

I’d say the bold was pretty obvious.

as far as what is supernatural. Simple that is beyond nature that which is higher then nature. AKA God and Angels

So if I were to travel far enough or fly high enough, I would reach the “supernatural”? Would, say, Pluto qualify as “supernatural” or would I have to leave the solar system?

 

[Poof]

I can’t.

Name five Christian “miracles” that have passed the same test.

Thanks for being honest. In return, I’ll make it even easier for you, name three instead.

As for your challenge:

1. Miracle of the Sun (Fatima)
2. Lourdes
3. Guadalupe Tilma
4. Padre Pio
5. Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

 

[SonSearcher]

Thanks for being honest. In return, I’ll make it even easier for you, name three instead.

As for your challenge:

1. Miracle of the Sun (Fatima)
2. Lourdes
3. Guadalupe Tilma
4. Padre Pio
5. Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

AMEN!

 

[empther]

An accurate prediction of future events is also a miracle.

Joan of Arc made many predictions that came true. Here are some of them.

1. Upon leaving her villiage to go the the wars, Joan had to stop at the nearby city of Vancouleurs to get, from Governor Beaudricourt, a letter of introduction to the king. In trying to get to see Beaudricourt she predicted that she would recognize him although she had never seen him. She did recognize him.
2. On her third visit to Governor Beaudricourt, he still hadn’t believed her story about the mission. Joan said that that very morning the French had lost a battle near Orleans. ( this called the Battle of the Herrings. The Engish were bringing a supply of fish to there troops in Orleand and the French tried to stop them but failed and lost many lives. )
   But Orleans was an eight day journey away. About a week later, word came that the French had lost a battle at Herrings, near Orleans.
3. As Joan approached the King’s castle, a soldier threw some crude sexual remarks at her. She warned him to watch after his soul because he would die soon. An hour later he fell off his horse into water and weighed down by armor he drowned.
4. Joan sent word ahead to the King that she would recognize him. He played the game, putting someone else on the throne and hiding himself among the court crowd. Joan had no problem finding him.
5. The King was skeptical about Joan’s story of her mission. She asked to speak to him privately. Minutes later the King came out to the court visibly shaken and said Joan was truly sent by God. It is not known what Joan told him. Questioned about this at her trial she said the ’
   Voices forbade her to speak about it.
6. The day before a battle at Orleans Joan said she would be wounded but would live. She was struck by an arrow several inches above the breast but returned to battle the same day. A Flemish diplomat visiting the area wrote a letter to his home country talking about this wounding incident. The letter was written three weeks before it happened. The letter still exists.
7. In first approaching Orleans, her company took her to the wrong side of the river. To get supplies across the river required loading them into sailboats but this was impossible because the prevailing wind was going in the wrong direction ( you can’t side-sail in a river ). Her generals said they would have to approach Orleans from another direction but it would take four or five days. Joan said, “Wait a little while”, and went off by herself to pray. Half an hour later the wind reversed direction and they could use the boats.
8. Joan predicted that the French would recapture Orleans. The city was surrounded by 11 forts all occupied by the English. The timid French generals wanted to start with the smallest and weakest fort first but Joan insisted they attack the largest fort, the Tourelles, which guarded the bridge into the city. In two days of battle the fort was taken. The next day the English abandoned all the other forts and left the city.
9. Word came that an English army was marching towards a place called Patay. The French were reluctant to engage the English head-on in an open field battle. Joan said God promised a great victory there. The outcome: from 2,000 to 4,000 dead English soldiers, only 3 dead French.
10. Joan promised the Duke of Alencon’s wife that she would return him home safely. The Duke fought by Joan’s side until he returned home just before Joan was captured at Compeigne.
11. In one battle Joan told her friend the Duke of Alencon to move away from where he was standing because the next cannon shot would hit there. ( cannonballs were made of stone which broke apart on imipact like shrapnel ) The Duke moved away but another man moved in to the same spot and he was killed by the next cannon shot.
12. Joan predicted that Charles VII would be crowned at the traditional site of Reims even though Reims was over a hundred miles within enemy territory. Winning many battles to clear the way, Joan got Charles to Reims for his crowning.
13. Joan predicted that she would be captured. She was captured at Compeigne despite fighting to prevent it.
14. Joan said she had no more than a year to do her work. She was captured about a year after appearing to the king.
15. At her trial, ( Mar 14, 1431 ), Joan said the Voices told her she would be martyred.
16. At her trial, Joan told the judges that within seven years the English would suffer a defeat greater than they had ever had in France. About six years later, the French finally lierated Paris which had been occupied by the English for many years… Paris was the key to control of the Seine River and France. This French victory was essentially the end of the Hundred Years’ War, the rest being merely a mop-up operation.
    ( war proceeded very slowly in those times, years went by with no action )
    Joan died a few months after this prediction.

 

[grannymh]

So if I were to travel far enough or fly high enough, I would reach the “supernatural”? Would, say, Pluto qualify as “supernatural” or would I have to leave the solar system?

Supernatural: 1. of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. Source: Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition

The word beyond has a variety of uses. For example. If flapping one’s arms takes a person to Pluto one could surmise that she or he has traveled beyond earth. Beyond rates three separate entries in Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition. For the purpose of this thread, here is the definition from the third entry, 2. something that lies outside the scope of ordinary experience.

Supernatural refers to an order of existence. There are two orders of existence 1. the material/physical world, i.e., universe, and 2. the immaterial/non-physical spiritual world which lies outside our ordinary experience of material objects. Note; the two orders of existence exist side by side…

One does not need to be outside the solar system to know about the immaterial world because the immaterial world cannot be excluded from within the universe. The properties of the material domain cannot exclude the existence of the immaterial domain.

In other words, the first peoples at the beginning of human history, knew instinctively about the supernatural.