What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

[jbredmo]

Think about what constitutes absolute proof of ANY proposition. If you mean the sort of proof that mathematicians employ to demonstrate the truth of a theorem, then proof of God is impossible, as “proof” depends on merely follwing a logical path from definitions and stipulated relationships. All you do is show that the proposition you are trying to prove is logically required by your axioms and definitions.

God’s existence is not this sort of proposition. In this light, it’s interesting to consider Godel’s theorem, which proves that there are true statements, consistent with any complete set of definitions and axioms, that cannot be proved using all the specified valid rules of inference in the set.

It’s a category mistake to ask for a mathematical proof of God’s existence. Real proof, of the sort sufficient to make decisions about life, (do I expect gravity to work today?) comes about through a rational process much fuzzier, and in that realm I think Aquinas’ and Anselm’s proofs, and many others, are, in aggregate, quite compelling.

I hope this helps, John

 

[jochoa]

Lets start with 3) I answer an emphatic NO.

If you believe neither you, nor any other human, could be the reflected image of God…then why are you demanding the religious societies that attempt to grow closer in unity with Him to reflect His image, given you believe it to be impossible to reflect His image?

1. Only when God provides the means of ‘return’ to a greater moral conception, one of His own creation, not of human intellectual origin, can one describe God as Loving. Those ‘means’ existing tradition have not provided because they do no have them!

Do you believe God created us?

…What God would fail to provide his true servants with the means to realize his Will? Can you honestly say that the ‘world’ has realized His purpose and promises? No I don’t think so.

He did provide his true servants with the means to realize his will, and Roman Catholicism knows the Fullness of Truth regarding His purpose, promises, and will. As for His will, He told us to master patience and kindness for God equally towards others and the self, and all the law and prophets are founded on these commandments.
As for His purpose, Catholicism knows the first Catechism of the Catholic Church → CCC #1.
As for His promise, Catholicism knows He has promised a Heavenly after-life.

My theory is that whatever Jesus came to reveal and teach two thousand years ago was lost early on by human disobedience…

You have some very interesting thoughts, my friend! I especially like the concept of proof of faith. However, I wonder what your interpretation of Matthew 16:18 DRB: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” is, given the Papacy has a direct line to Peter?

1. On authority. The very fact that three different, competing mono-theisms still exist, not to mention the non theistic traditions, shows that whatever authority exists is purely of human cultural origin, rooted at a time, distant past, when such ‘spiritual’ institutions held secular powers and could and did impose their will by force and tyranny.

Interesting thoughts. In order to gain understanding of why the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church is seemingly of human cultural origin, I encourage you to ponder growing in oneness with the Spirit of God given the ignorant and developing mind of human nature. It is easy in hindsight to recognize why the force and tyranny of old ages is wrong. However, my friend, you should have greater mercy on them for you, yourself, believe it is impossible to be the reflected image of God, therefore they must not of had any chance of being the reflected image of God.

One of the contemporary mysteries science continues to be confounded by is consciousness. They will never crack it. That understanding has been saved for that ‘second coming’ for when God decides to reveal his will, it will speak directly to the human soul, of which consciousness is an emanation.

Interesting thoughts!

…It requires no institutional framework or hierarchy, churches or priest craft…

Although I find your concept of new age, to have an interesting resemblance to a Heavenly after-life concept in which we are as brothers and sisters, I think you are confusing the heavenly and earthly lives. On earth, humans will always need to be trained to grow in oneness with the Spirit of God because they are naturally ignorant. This training will require framework, authorities and hierarchies, etc. Also, refer back to Matthew 16:18, if there are no churches, then would you say the gates of hell overcame Jesus Christ’s Church?

 

[David_Castlen]

you can’t get a 1 from a 0.

Excellent

Brivity IS the soul of wit and apparetly teaching

 

[Jesuit_Boy_63]

I have always wondered why people look for “absolute proof that God exists”. I am not overly concerned with absolutes and am more confortable with “on the balance of probabilities”. I am happy to serve God whose being, while not proven by metrics, is very real to me. Now, that being said I am persuaded by two thoughts:

1. Ex nihil, nihil. (out of nothing comes nothing). Postulated by Parmenedies and later argued by St. Thomas Aquinas in his five proofs.
2. St Thomas Aquinas first causality argument. In order for anything to be there must be a first causality. This Being, not bound by space or time simply IS. There cannot be nothing if something IS. Since it IS then all else proceeds from that which is - the first causality. This IS God - God IS.
   If I can get my mind around that concept then I have the first step - God IS. After that the rest simply follows on and flows from the first causality - the Creator.
   It works for me.

 

[RCCB]

Of course conversations such as this don’t have anywhere to go and I didn’t see my rather iconoclastic ideas leading to any conversation, so I’m pleased. So I shall leave the thread with a couple quotes from Milton’s Paradise Lost and Dante from his Divine Comedy with a supporting link that might be of interest to any wannabe religious revolutionary!

O yet a nobler task awaits thy hand
for what can war but endless war still breed?
till truth and right from violence be freed
And publick faith clear’d from the shameful brand
Of publick fraud.

For as I turned, there greeted mine likewise
What all behold who contemplate aright,
That’s Heaven’s revolution through the skies.

energon.org.uk

 

[jochoa]

…I didn’t see my rather iconoclastic ideas leading to any conversation…

My friend, would you kindly reconsider, for I was inquiring more on your ideas for I find them to be interesting? I would like to hear some of your thoughts on consciousness emanating from the soul, such as what is your understanding of soul?

…for what can war but endless war still breed?..

Please consider some concepts regarding this quote mixed with your iconoclastic ideas:
First, I definitely agree that there is a better way than war, however I am certain the fundamental depths of war are impossible to conquer as an entire earthly society. To recognize this, simply consider that war is destruction, and iconoclastic ideas are intended to destroy. War is such an incredible challenge to end permanently. I have yet to win the battle of good and evil within my own self, much less all my relationships.

I would add to the quote, the only way to end war is to first understand and validate the enemy’s perspective, adjust the failures and incompleteness of one’s self, then attempt to help the enemy grow to higher morality. Gracefully stated the idea is to, “Love your enemy.”

Thoughts?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

My friend, would you kindly reconsider, for I was inquiring more on your ideas for I find them to be interesting? I would like to hear some of your thoughts on consciousness emanating from the soul, such as what is your understanding of soul?

Please consider some concepts regarding this quote mixed with your iconoclastic ideas:
First, I definitely agree that there is a better way than war, however I am certain the fundamental depths of war are impossible to conquer as an entire earthly society. To recognize this, simply consider that war is destruction, and iconoclastic ideas are intended to destroy. War is such an incredible challenge to end permanently. I have yet to win the battle of good and evil within my own self, much less all my relationships.

I would add to the quote, the only way to end war is to first understand and validate the enemy’s perspective, adjust the failures and incompleteness of one’s self, then attempt to help the enemy grow to higher morality. Gracefully stated the idea is to, “Love your enemy.”

Thoughts?

Si vis pacem, parat bellum. I think it is Julius Caesar. If you want peace, prepare the war.
Love your enemies and oil your guns…

 

[RCCB]

If you believe neither you, nor any other human, could be the reflected image of God…then why are you demanding the religious societies that attempt to grow closer in unity with Him to reflect His image, given you believe it to be impossible to reflect His image?<

Within your comment is the presumption that human nature is as it was before the Fall. for which I must disagree.

As it was God’s will, that by a single disobedience we lost that ‘image’ and spiritual inheritance, then it must also be by a single obedience that we ‘return’ to that image.
My position is that theological process has been unable to reveal that ‘key’ knowledge of ‘return’ and has in fact taken us, not closer to God but further from Him and into a theological quagmire. For with the loss of that ‘image’ was the loss of all access to that reality. In that sense we are ‘dead’ to God.

Do you believe God created us?<
Not in the same way that you do. I would suggest that to be created by God it the same as our return, being, ‘infused’ with an uncorrupted moral insight, a correction to human nature itself, called the ‘Circumcision’ of the Holy Spirit, created by God, to confirm the nature of a covenant between a man and God.

You have some very interesting thoughts, my friend! I especially like the concept of proof of faith< >rock I will build my church<
Both Rock and Church are subject to mis interpretation and error of translation. Rock lends itself to my own concept of direct, hard evidence based proof, ‘the stone the builders rejected’. For church, I would prefer neighborhood and community.

they are naturally ignorant<
That is the condition of human nature, dead, deaf, dumb, and blind, and remains the case in spite of religion.

This training will require framework, authorities and hierarchies<
No it does not, at least not in any institutional form. Nor one defined by gross accumulated wealth. One needs only the authority of demonstrable truth as guide. You will find no suggestion of any ‘institutional’ religious form in Genesis before the Fall, only a direct relationship with God. That is our return!

 

[grannymh]

I hope I quoted the correct poster. If not, my apology.

As it was God’s will, that by a single disobedience we lost that ‘image’ and spiritual inheritance, then it must also be by a single obedience that we ‘return’ to that image.

Catholicism teaches that our “image of God” was not lost. Our human nature was wounded by Original Sin, but it was not totally corrupted or destroyed. We lost our relationship with God. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases Original Sin and turns us back to God.

The “single obedience” which atoned for Original Sin and reconciled humanity with our Creator was the “single obedience” that is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.

 

[RCCB]

I would like to hear some of your thoughts on consciousness emanating from the soul, such as what is your understanding of soul?<

The purpose of the soul has one function above all others, that is to inform, even warn reason as to right conduct, what is moral and what is not. But that presupposes that the soul contains such insight. I would suggest that the ‘foundation’ of moral insight, called the Holy Spirit, is what was lost to man at the Fall. Thus we no longer have any perfectly objective moral knowledge to guide reason and conduct with integrity. Only relativism and rationalization and ‘apologetics’ of dishonesty and self deception.

I would add to the quote, the only way to end war is to first understand and validate the enemy’s perspective, adjust the failures and incompleteness of one’s self, then attempt to help the enemy grow to higher morality.<

History has already well demonstrated that there is no higher morality, available to our species via existing religious teaching, with the authority to end war. The way to end war is to demonstrate a greater authority, an accountability for moral error, much, much greater than death itself. Thus does fear of God lead to change.

<Gracefully stated the idea is to, “Love your enemy.”<

As a process of return, also called judgement begins, ‘love your enemy’ would simply mean being prepared to share the insight of return with all who, in humility, seek the grace and favor of the Lord, in spite of any previous prejudice one might have held.

 

[jochoa]

To my good friend, RCCB,
You have so many great ideas. It is unfortunate that I am unable to explain to you how I find them well aligned with Catholicism, because your ideas are really good. However, there are some holes I believe you should consider.

Within your comment is the presumption that human nature is as it was before the Fall. for which I must disagree…

These following two principles seem contradictory: Since human nature is natural, it cannot change, and therefore is as it was as it always will be. However, a human can develop his/her nature to become one with Divine nature, as demonstrated by Jesus. However, they can be both validated by defining nature further:
a. the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing
b. an inner force or the sum of such forces in an individual
All humans from conception naturally inherit certain characteristics, such as an ignorant mind and a body that knows how to grow and manage when supplied nutrients. This is universal and natural for all humans, therefore is human nature and unchanging.
All humans have a spirit of inner forces which lead them to seek peace, happiness, and longevity. Humans are also capable of dedicating there life to achieving a certain level of each desire. And it is when a human perfectly aligns the sum of the forces of his/her inner spirit to be in alignment with the sum of forces of God’s Spirit, that s/he has become one with the divine nature. The divine nature can be gracefully stated as: Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated for God with all your heart, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self. Becoming one in nature with the Spirit of God requires changing the human nature.

Regarding God creating us, rock and church: It seems as though you justify and deny various concepts by limiting your definitions. For greater union with Jesus Christ’s Church, I encourage you to broaden your definitions to validate Church Teachings.

That is the condition of human nature, dead, deaf, dumb, and blind, and remains the case in spite of religion.

Please consider the following concept: The only method for humans to overcome human nature and become partakers in the divine nature is through God’s Word. The method God chose to formulate, share, and keep alive His Word with humans is through the saints and martyrs of His Universal Church. Since you do not believe Peter is the Rock, perhaps you should consider what Church assembled the Holy Bible.

One needs only the authority of demonstrable truth as guide.

You would think that when one is standing in the presence of Truth, however Lucifer stood in the presence of Perfect Love, God Himself, yet it wasn’t enough for him. Unfortunately, free-will and pride are sometimes too hard to overcome.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on soul and love your enemy, and thank you very much for sharing your ideas. I have grown in perspective by learning from you!

Thoughts?

 

[grannymh]

To my good friend, RCCB,
You have so many great ideas. It is unfortunate that I am unable to explain to you how I find them well aligned with Catholicism, because your ideas are really good. However, there are some holes I believe you should consider.

These following two principles seem contradictory: Since human nature is natural, it cannot change, and therefore is as it was as it always will be. However, a human can develop his/her nature to become one with Divine nature, as demonstrated by Jesus.However, they can be both validated by defining nature further:
a. the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing
b. an inner force or the sum of such forces in an individual
All humans from conception naturally inherit certain characteristics, such as an ignorant mind and a body that knows how to grow and manage when supplied nutrients. This is universal and natural for all humans, therefore is human nature and unchanging.
All humans have a spirit of inner forces which lead them to seek peace, happiness, and longevity. Humans are also capable of dedicating there life to achieving a certain level of each desire. And it is when a human perfectly aligns the sum of the forces of his/her inner spirit to be in alignment with the sum of forces of God’s Spirit, that s/he has become one with the divine nature. The divine nature can be gracefully stated as: Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated for God with all your heart, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self. Becoming one in nature with the Spirit of God requires changing the human nature.

Regarding God creating us, rock and church: It seems as though you justify and deny various concepts by limiting your definitions. For greater union with Jesus Christ’s Church, I encourage you to broaden your definitions to validate Church Teachings.

Please consider the following concept: The only method for humans to overcome human nature and become partakers in the divine nature is through God’s Word. The method God chose to formulate, share, and keep alive His Word with humans is through the saints and martyrs of His Universal Church. Since you do not believe Peter is the Rock, perhaps you should consider what Church assembled the Holy Bible.

You would think that when one is standing in the presence of Truth, however Lucifer stood in the presence of Perfect Love, God Himself, yet it wasn’t enough for him. Unfortunately, free-will and pride are sometimes too hard to overcome.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on soul and love your enemy, and thank you very much for sharing your ideas. I have grown in perspective by learning from you!

Thoughts?

Re: “However, a human can develop his/her nature to become one with Divine nature, as demonstrated by Jesus.”

I am not understanding what you are talking about when you say that "a human can develop his/her nature to become one with Divine nature, as demonstrated by Jesus.
What exactly is being developed? Human nature per se, is complete at conception. Are you referring to virtues or good acts or what? How can a human overcome human nature when human nature was never totally corrupted? A long ago poster called humans sin machines or something similar. Is that what you are talking about? If it is, Catholicism has a better position on human nature.

Perhaps you are speaking poetically about human nature? Catholicism addresses human nature as an unique unification of both the material and spiritual worlds-- material anatomy and spiritual soul. Yet humans are not two natures united; rather the union forms a single nature, the human person. This unity of soul and body is profound. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living human person.

 

[RCCB]

I hope I quoted the correct poster. If not, my apology.

Catholicism teaches that our “image of God” was not lost. Our human nature was >wounded by Original Sin, but it was not totally corrupted or destroyed. We lost our >elationship with God. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases Original >Sin and turns us back to God.

 

[RCCB]

To my good friend, RCCB,

 

[jochoa]

What exactly is being developed? Human nature per se, is complete at conception. Are you referring to virtues or good acts or what? How can a human overcome human nature when human nature was never totally corrupted?

Thank you very much, my friend, for asking for further definition to the concept! I look forward to further discussion.

Regarding what is being developed:
Given the definition of nature as the inner force or the sum of the inner forces of an individual, try to recognize some of the inner forces of humans. Please note: although some of the following are universal forces for any human, we will save that discussion for another day.
-the force of desiring peace, especially when hurt. Ex. Seeking relief from stress, physical pain, or worry.
-the force of desiring happiness. Ex. Seeking entertainment or a hobby.
-the force of desiring longevity. Ex. Seeking to live longer or be remembered longer.
-the force of desiring power. Ex. Seeking strength, endurance, authority.
-the force of desiring knowledge.
-the force of desiring wisdom. Ex. Seeking simpler methods and muscle memory.
-the force of desiring wealth.
-the force of desiring fame, in the least, acknowledgment.
These are only a few of many desires our beings are forced to desire. What is also interesting about each of these desires is that many of them can be applied to the physical, spiritual, mental, or willful being of an individual or neighbors of an individual. Ex. Happiness - My body can find happiness from cleanliness, my mind can find happiness by pondering the Holy Trinity, my spirit can find happiness by helping others grow closer in union with God, and my will can find happiness by being used to help my neighbor find peace.
The amazing thing about being human is that we have been given the ability to set the priority and desired quality of each desire. However, the sum of the inner forces of almost every human (only Jesus, the Son of God, has physically demonstrated oneness with the Divine nature of God) has yet to be fully aligned with the sum of the inner forces of God.

Therefore, the challenge becomes to overcome the priority each one of us has somehow come to set for ourselves through our unique life circumstances, and align it with that of the divine sum of inner forces of God. From my current analysis of the Word, with heavy emphasis on the Greatest Commandments, I have come to understand the Divine Nature as:

Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated for God with all the body and with all the spirit and with all the thoughts and with all the will equally towards others and self, for the sake of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy for every individual and relationship of society.
Then to achieve the Wisdom of the Divine Nature:
Ponder what all is required to create and guide free-willed beings to maintain a society of the Divine Nature.

Thoughts?

 

[grannymh]

Thank you very much, my friend, for asking for further definition to the concept! I look forward to further discussion.

Regarding what is being developed:
Given the definition of nature as the inner force or the sum of the inner forces of an individual, try to recognize some of the inner forces of humans. Please note: although some of the following are universal forces for any human, we will save that discussion for another day.
-the force of desiring peace, especially when hurt. Ex. Seeking relief from stress, physical pain, or worry.
-the force of desiring happiness. Ex. Seeking entertainment or a hobby.
-the force of desiring longevity. Ex. Seeking to live longer or be remembered longer.
-the force of desiring power. Ex. Seeking strength, endurance, authority.
-the force of desiring knowledge.
-the force of desiring wisdom. Ex. Seeking simpler methods and muscle memory.
-the force of desiring wealth.
-the force of desiring fame, in the least, acknowledgment.
These are only a few of many desires our beings are forced to desire. What is also interesting about each of these desires is that many of them can be applied to the physical, spiritual, mental, or willful being of an individual or neighbors of an individual. Ex. Happiness - My body can find happiness from cleanliness, my mind can find happiness by pondering the Holy Trinity, my spirit can find happiness by helping others grow closer in union with God, and my will can find happiness by being used to help my neighbor find peace.
The amazing thing about being human is that we have been given the ability to set the priority and desired quality of each desire. However, the sum of the inner forces of almost every human (only Jesus, the Son of God, has physically demonstrated oneness with the Divine nature of God) has yet to be fully aligned with the sum of the inner forces of God.

Therefore, the challenge becomes to overcome the priority each one of us has somehow come to set for ourselves through our unique life circumstances, and align it with that of the divine sum of inner forces of God. From my current analysis of the Word, with heavy emphasis on the Greatest Commandments, I have come to understand the Divine Nature as:

Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated for God with all the body and with all the spirit and with all the thoughts and with all the will equally towards others and self, for the sake of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy for every individual and relationship of society.
Then to achieve the Wisdom of the Divine Nature:
Ponder what all is required to create and guide free-willed beings to maintain a society of the Divine Nature.

Thoughts?

The main thrust of your explanation appears to be the virtues and good acts of humans. Given that your definition of nature is the inner force or the sum of the inner forces of an individual, it is beneficial to recognize inner forces which lead to virtues and good acts.

As one who is interested in both philosophy and science, I use the term nature as in a basic material and/or spiritual nature. Now, I understand why I see a different way of looking at humans and God. Thank you for your explanation.

 

[eo_chibears]

There is no absolute proof, just like there is no absolute proof he/she does not exist.

 

[jochoa]

The main thrust of your explanation appears to be the virtues and good acts of humans. Given that your definition of nature is the inner force or the sum of the inner forces of an individual, it is beneficial to recognize inner forces which lead to virtues and good acts.

Thank you very much for your consideration and sharing your thoughts, my good friend. It is a very interesting challenge to make distinctions in the aspects of nature given that all the aspects so easily blur together. However, I really like the way you have said it so gracefully, “…the inner forces which lead to virtues and good acts.” Also, please note that I used one of Merriam-Webster’s definitions of nature to recognize this concept.

May the peace and joy of living with Christ be with you every moment! Thank you for helping me!

 

[jochoa]

What makes you think we are good friends? Just curious.

You are one of my good friends for several reasons.

1. Anyone who is a good friend of Jesus Christ is a good friend of mine.
2. We not only share the common interest of learning philosophy/faith/morality, you take the time to converse with me about these concepts.
3. You take the time to share your perspective on my concepts.
4. Even through disagreements, you are respectful in the presentation of your ideas.
5. You are not mean.

You presume on God too much!

I am not sure as to where the concept of human nature being natural and unchanging presume God.

God can change as is his will.

Although I agree with you that God changes, I also know of a method of validating that God does not change.

And I do not accept that a species as destructive and self destructive ours would be anything but abhorrent to the Lord.

Though it is incredibly unfortunate the strong levels of selfishness some of us have fell to, I encourage you to consider:
The Lord, our God, is perfect Love, where Love is patient and kind. Since disgust, loathing, and repugnant do not exist within Love, the Lord cannot be abhorrent.

God has yet to offer the opportunity for man to ‘Rise’ above the gross materialism which defines the world.

Since there are definitely highly materialistic/conditional people in the world, and every human, except Christ, fails to act in complete unconditional behavior. Perhaps the opportunity already exists. Therefore, the challenge is for True followers of Christ is to completely become unconditionally patient and kind, even in the face of strong material/conditional living.

And that ‘Rise’ or ‘first Resurrection’ would include a correction to human nature itself, transcending biology, strengthening moral will, and transforming moral perception beyond all evolutionary boundaries. That’s my idea of Grace!

This definitely sounds very interesting, and from my perception of your concept “Rise,” I find the Sacraments of Catholicism to do all of those: corrects human nature, transcends biology, strengthens moral will, and transforms moral perception. However, it seems your concept has hints of adjusting the free-willed nature of humans.

I will share thoughts on the other concepts later.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thoughts?

 

[jochoa]

And what has been learned by the worldwide pedophile priest scandals that continue as I write.

Please consider a few concepts:
Though the actions of some are rough, please recognize that it is impossible to grow in unity with the Holy Spirit of Christ, if one focuses on the unholiness of the world. I encourage you to redirect your focus to the Saints of Catholicism. Also, please recognize that we are all partly holy, as well as partly unholy. Therefore, try mastering the skill of focusing on the holiness in each individual action/thought/feeling.

And that peace is unrealized…

What kind of a Rock breaks up into thousands pieces of the centuries, a process that continues breaking up even today. Never has a ‘house’ been so divided.

Please consider the following:
Although the potential for an unbreakable peace as a society, including most individuals, is not yet realized, which is tremendously unfortunate, it seems as though you focus heavily on the negative aspects of life. In my considerations of you and I conversing, there must be a lot of peace and construction in the world. For you and I to converse, there is some incredibly complex machines that have been created to allow you and I to communicate. The creation of such machines required great amounts of peace and lack of war. You and I must both have the free time to read and respond to one another’s posts. This free time is an indication of a decent level of peace, for if we were at war, there would be no time for such consideration.
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has not broken up at all. It is still One. To recognize this, please consider a few points: If you will consider the Church as the Body of Jesus Christ, then recognize that a body can have parts (ex. skin cells) which fall out of union with the body without breaking up the body.

You comment correctly assumes that there is no definitive, written teaching that was was ever passed on by Christ or his Apostles as a revelation. That has been presumed!

Although you are correct in that the statement can indicate a presumption, let’s consider the presumption that there is additional material:
If the additional material is found to be in alignment with the Holy Bible, it will only support that the Holy Bible is Complete.
If the additional material is found to be out-of-alignment with the Holy Bible, then one of the sources is false. If we presume the Holy Bible to be false, then it is purposeless to believe in Jesus Christ as God, for then it becomes impossible to determine which verses are Truth, and which are not.

That’s another big problem. The Bible is most likely incomplete…

Please know that I also understand how the Holy Bible can be validated as incomplete. I simply recognize that Catholicism has had to find insight from the Word to develop Catechisms and Doctrines. I have had to learn various interpretations of the Word to understand why it is gracefully written in such a manner. Another method of validating the Holy Bible as incomplete as is, is that if one considers the writings’ original forms, it is incomplete in that it had to be translated to several different languages in order to be spread throughout the world. One could argue, if it was complete, it would not need translating and thus, subjecting it to the chance of human error of misinterpreting it.

How does one know whether or not the theological construct that is tradition is not just our own intellectual pride, reducing God to our own human image…

One can understand Truth by realizing the only reasonable solution to the following:
Given ALL the following:
-You, as a thinking, feeling, acting, living being exist in solitude (Hint: It is best to think of yourself existing as a single-celled being, similar to how you first came to be).
-There is nothing else in existence.
-The only method to create something, living or non-living, is to first think of it.
-You want to experience limitless happiness without ever losing peace.
How do you make that happen?

Thoughts?