What would make you become Catholic?

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To be intellectually honest about your last question, I do not know the answer. I have never really looked into it but I will look into the question and when I have reached an accurate conclusion, I will get back to you.
Well, in good conscience, how can you rectify that FACT with the assertion that Peter was declared head of the church and everyone knew it, as you said? Jerusalem, being the birthplace of Christianity, and at that time, one would logicall assume the most important church, yet Peter wasnt the head of it. Maybe because James was Jesus’ real brother, which would have been acknowledged by the community, thus shooting the perpetual virginity dogma down, or just that Peter was not the declared leader, which would shoot the papacy down. Tough one here.
 
There was no catholic church, there was A church.
Actually, for all intents and purposes, the Church was already referred to as the Catholic Church long before the canon of Scripture was decided.
 
Actually, for all intents and purposes, the Church was already referred to as the Catholic Church long before the canon of Scripture was decided.
Intents and purposes, or solid fact?
 
Well, in good conscience, how can you rectify that FACT with the assertion that Peter was declared head of the church and everyone knew it, as you said? Jerusalem, being the birthplace of Christianity, and at that time, one would logicall assume the most important church, yet Peter wasnt the head of it. Maybe because James was Jesus’ real brother, which would have been acknowledged by the community, thus shooting the perpetual virginity dogma down, or just that Peter was not the declared leader, which would shoot the papacy down. Tough one here.
When you are talking about James being the head of the church in Jerusalem, are you speaking about Acts 15? I will get to your other insinuations a bit later.
 
It’s quite factual. There is a plethora of evidence from the Early Church Fathers wherein they refer to the Church as the Catholic Church.
I actually already posted the quote that mentions “Catholic church” being used in 110 AD. Guess he glossed over that one.
 
You can pull the attitude back a bit.
I don’t want to get into a tiff with either of you guys, but there are MANY more quotes that refer to the Church as “Catholic,” all of which can be found in writings pre-dating the first councils convened to settle the issue of canonical Scripture. This is just an undeniable fact of history.

As to the point about James being the head apostle in Jerusalem, how would this take away from Peter’s primacy in the entire Church?
 
Wasn’t any attitude at all…I just said I already posted that (which I did) and I guess you glossed over it…thats the thing about posting online…nobody can really ever tell if youre being sarcastic or not.
 
I don’t want to get into a tiff with either of you guys, but there are MANY more quotes that refer to the Church as “Catholic,” all of which can be found in writings pre-dating the first councils convened to settle the issue of canonical Scripture. This is just an undeniable fact of history.

As to the point about James being the head apostle in Jerusalem, how would this take away from Peter’s primacy in the entire Church?
Yes there is…I actually have the three-volume set of “Faith of the Early Church Fathers” by William Jurgens at home and it shows exactly what the first and second century Christians truly believed.
 
Wasn’t any attitude at all…I just said I already posted that (which I did) and I guess you glossed over it…thats the thing about posting online…nobody can really ever tell if youre being sarcastic or not.
especially when using words like glossed over
 
I don’t want to get into a tiff with either of you guys, but there are MANY more quotes that refer to the Church as “Catholic,” all of which can be found in writings pre-dating the first councils convened to settle the issue of canonical Scripture. This is just an undeniable fact of history.

As to the point about James being the head apostle in Jerusalem, how would this take away from Peter’s primacy in the entire Church?
how wouldnt it is the question. If Peter is not the head of the most important church at the time, then how is he the first pope? doent follow logically at all.
 
I don’t want to get into a tiff with either of you guys, but there are MANY more quotes that refer to the Church as “Catholic,” all of which can be found in writings pre-dating the first councils convened to settle the issue of canonical Scripture. This is just an undeniable fact of history.

As to the point about James being the head apostle in Jerusalem, how would this take away from Peter’s primacy in the entire Church?
It doesnt. Who really knows the reason why James was the head Apostle in Jerusalem at that time. I’m doing some research on it and see where it leads. Whether or not James was the head there at that time, Peter was still handed the Keys to the Kingdom by Jesus Christ Himself and there isnt any denying that unless you mutilate the Biblical verses and deny the Sacred Tradition that led to the Bible.
 
especially when using words like glossed over
He feels that you glossed over the quote he posted, and you feel as though he is avoiding your question about Jerusalem. We should move past the chest thumping and stick to the facts.

:o
 
It doesnt. Who really knows the reason why James was the head Apostle in Jerusalem at that time. I’m doing some research on it and see where it leads. Whether or not James was the head there at that time, Peter was still handed the Keys to the Kingdom by Jesus Christ Himself and there isnt any denying that unless you mutilate the Biblical verses and deny the Sacred Tradition that led to the Bible.
My only point to this is that the Chair of St. Peter is not dependent upon it’s location in Rome. For instance, if the Vatican fell into the ocean tomorrow, the office of Pope would still exist, just in a different location.
 
He feels that you glossed over the quote he posted, and you feel as though he is avoiding your question about Jerusalem. We should move past the chest thumping and stick to the facts.

:o
I wholeheartedly agree.
 
It doesnt. Who really knows the reason why James was the head Apostle in Jerusalem at that time. I’m doing some research on it and see where it leads. Whether or not James was the head there at that time, Peter was still handed the Keys to the Kingdom by Jesus Christ Himself and there isnt any denying that unless you mutilate the Biblical verses and deny the Sacred Tradition that led to the Bible.
That doesnt make logical sense. Why would he be handed the keys, everyone know it, yet not be head of the first and most important church?

PROOF ONE: We should consider Christ’s commission to Peter. This is often very embarrassing to Catholics, because Christ commissioned Peter to become chief minister to the CIRCUMCISED, not to uncircumcised Gentiles.

“The gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter; (For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)” (Gal. 2:7-8).

Here we have it in the clearest of language. It was Paul, NOT Peter, who was commissioned to be the chief Apostle to the Gentiles. And who was it that wrote the Epistle to the ROMANS? It certainly WASN’T Peter! “And when James, Cephas [Peter], and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace * that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision” (Gal. 2:9). Paul further mentioned his special office as the Gentile Apostle in II Timothy 1:11: “Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

PETER is NOWHERE called the Apostle to the Gentiles! This precludes him from going to Rome to become the head of a Gentile community.

PROOF TWO: Paul specifically told the Gentile Romans that HE had been chosen to be their Apostle, not Peter. “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable” (Rom. 15:16). How clear! Paul had the direct charge from Christ in this matter. He even further relates in Romans 15:18 that it was Christ who had chosen him “to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.”

PAUL Established the Only TRUE Church at Rome during the apostolic era.

PROOF THREE: We are told by Paul himself that it was he – not Peter –who was going to officially found the Roman Church. “I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established” (Rom. 1:11). Amazing! The Church at Rome had not been ESTABLISHED officially even by 55 or 56 A.D. However, the Catholics would have us believe that Peter had done this some ten years before – in the reign of Claudius. What nonsense! Of course you understand that NEITHER Peter nor Paul established the Catholic Church! But these proofs are given to illustrate that it is utterly impossible for PETER to have been in any way associated with ANY Church at Rome.

PROOF FOUR: We find Paul not only wanting to establish the Church at Rome, but he emphatically tells us that his policy was NEVER to build upon another man’s foundation. “Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, LEST I SHOULD BUILD UPON ANOTHER MAN’S FOUNDATION”(Rom. 15:20). If Peter had “founded” the Roman Church some ten years before this statement, this represents a real affront to Peter. This statement alone is proof that Peter had never been in Rome before this time to “found” any church. Peter Not in Rome

PROOF FIVE: At the end of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans he greets no fewer than 28 different individuals, but never mentions Peter once! See Romans 16 --read the whole chapter! Remember, Paul greeted these people in 55 or 56 A.D. Why didn’t he mention Peter? – Peter simply wasn’t there!

PROOF SIX: Some four years after Paul wrote Romans, he was conveyed as a prisoner to Rome in order to stand trial before Caesar. When the Christian community in Rome heard of Paul’s arrival, they all went to meet him. “When THE brethren [of Rome] heard of us, they came to meet us” (Acts 28:15). Again, there is not a single mention of Peter among them. This would have been extraordinary had Peter been in Rome, for Luke always mentions by name important Apostles in his narration of Acts. But he says nothing of Peter’s meeting with Paul.

Why? Because Peter was not in Rome!

PROOF SEVEN: When Paul finally arrived at Rome, the first thing he did was to summon “the chief of the Jews together” (Acts 28:17) to whom he “expounded and testified the kingdom of God” (Verse 23). But what is amazing is that these chief Jewish elders claimed they knew very little even about the basic teachings of Christ. All they knew was that ‘‘as concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against" (Verse 22). Then Paul began to explain to them the basic teachings of Christ on the Kingdom of God. Some believed – the majority didn’t.

Now, what does all this mean? It means that if Peter, who was himself a strongly partisan Jew, had been preaching constantly in Rome for 14 long years before this time, AND WAS STILL THERE – how could these Jewish leaders have known so little about even the basic truths of Christianity? This again is clear proof Peter had not been in Rome prior to 59 A.D. No Mention of Peter in Paul’s Letters

PROOF EIGHT: After the rejection of the Jewish elders, Paul remained in his own hired house for two years. During that time he wrote Epistles to the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Colossians, Philemon, and to the Hebrews. And while Paul mentions others as being in Rome during that period, he nowhere mentions Peter. The obvious reason is – the Apostle to the circumcision wasn’t there!

PROOF NINE: With the expiration of Paul’s two year’s imprisonment, he was released. But about four years later (near 65 A.D.), he was again sent back a prisoner to Rome. This time he had to appear before the throne of Caesar and was sentenced to die. Paul describes these circumstances at length in II Timothy. In regard to his trial, notice what Paul said in II Timothy 4:16. “At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men [in Rome] forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.” This means, if we believe the Catholics, that Peter forsook Paul, for they tell us Peter was very much present at Rome during this time! Peter once denied Christ, but that was before he was converted. To believe that Peter was in Rome during Paul’s trial, is untenable!

PROOF TEN: The Apostle Paul distinctly informs us that Peter was not in Rome in 65 A.D. – even though Catholics say he was. Paul said: “Only Luke is with me” (II Tim. 4:11). The truth becomes very plain. Paul wrote TO Rome; he had been IN Rome; and at the end wrote at least six epistles FROM Rome; and not only does he NEVER mention Peter, but at the last moment says: “Only Luke is with me.” Peter, therefore, was never Bishop of Rome!

Where was Peter the apostle of Christ? At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows that he was elsewhere. The evidence is abundant and conclusive. By paying attention to God’s own words, no one need be deceived. Peter was NEVER the Bishop of Rome!

Near 45 A.D., we find Peter being cast into prison at Jerusalem (Acts 12:3, 4). In 49 A.D., he was still in Jerusalem, this time attending the Jerusalem Council. About 51 A.D., he was in Antioch of Syria where he got into differences with Paul because he wouldn’t sit or eat with Gentiles. Strange that the “Roman bishop” would have nothing to do with Gentiles in 51 A.D.! Later in about 66 A.D., we find him in the city of Babylon among the Jews (I Pet. 5:13). Remember that Peter was the Apostle to the CIRCUMCISED. Why was he in Babylon? Because history shows that there were as many Jews in the Mesopotamian areas in Christ’s time as there were in Palestine. It is no wonder we find him in the East. Perhaps this is the reason why scholars say Peter’s writings are strongly Aramaic in flavor, the type of Aramaic spoken in Babylon. Why of course! Peter was used to their eastern dialect.

At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows he was elsewhere. As previously mentioned there are many supposed historical accounts of Peter in Rome but none of them are first hand accounts and should not be put above the many accounts of The Bible.

We know from The Bible that the apostle Peter was not in Rome. There was a Simon Peter in Rome after the death of Christ but it is not the apostle Peter that was a fisherman from Jerusalem. Who is this Simon Peter that was in Rome during the middle of the first century? This is how the great false Church of Rome got its start; along with the first leader Simon Peter not the apostle Peter.*
 
That doesnt make logical sense. Why would he be handed the keys, everyone know it, yet not be head of the first and most important church?

PROOF ONE: We should consider Christ’s commission to Peter. This is often very embarrassing to Catholics, because Christ commissioned Peter to become chief minister to the CIRCUMCISED, not to uncircumcised Gentiles.

“The gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter; (For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)” (Gal. 2:7-8).

Here we have it in the clearest of language. It was Paul, NOT Peter, who was commissioned to be the chief Apostle to the Gentiles. And who was it that wrote the Epistle to the ROMANS? It certainly WASN’T Peter! “And when James, Cephas [Peter], and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace * that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision” (Gal. 2:9). Paul further mentioned his special office as the Gentile Apostle in II Timothy 1:11: “Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

PETER is NOWHERE called the Apostle to the Gentiles! This precludes him from going to Rome to become the head of a Gentile community.

PROOF TWO: Paul specifically told the Gentile Romans that HE had been chosen to be their Apostle, not Peter. “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable” (Rom. 15:16). How clear! Paul had the direct charge from Christ in this matter. He even further relates in Romans 15:18 that it was Christ who had chosen him “to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.”

PAUL Established the Only TRUE Church at Rome during the apostolic era.

PROOF THREE: We are told by Paul himself that it was he – not Peter –who was going to officially found the Roman Church. “I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established” (Rom. 1:11). Amazing! The Church at Rome had not been ESTABLISHED officially even by 55 or 56 A.D. However, the Catholics would have us believe that Peter had done this some ten years before – in the reign of Claudius. What nonsense! Of course you understand that NEITHER Peter nor Paul established the Catholic Church! But these proofs are given to illustrate that it is utterly impossible for PETER to have been in any way associated with ANY Church at Rome.

PROOF FOUR: We find Paul not only wanting to establish the Church at Rome, but he emphatically tells us that his policy was NEVER to build upon another man’s foundation. “Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, LEST I SHOULD BUILD UPON ANOTHER MAN’S FOUNDATION”(Rom. 15:20). If Peter had “founded” the Roman Church some ten years before this statement, this represents a real affront to Peter. This statement alone is proof that Peter had never been in Rome before this time to “found” any church. Peter Not in Rome

PROOF FIVE: At the end of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans he greets no fewer than 28 different individuals, but never mentions Peter once! See Romans 16 --read the whole chapter! Remember, Paul greeted these people in 55 or 56 A.D. Why didn’t he mention Peter? – Peter simply wasn’t there!

PROOF SIX: Some four years after Paul wrote Romans, he was conveyed as a prisoner to Rome in order to stand trial before Caesar. When the Christian community in Rome heard of Paul’s arrival, they all went to meet him. “When THE brethren [of Rome] heard of us, they came to meet us” (Acts 28:15). Again, there is not a single mention of Peter among them. This would have been extraordinary had Peter been in Rome, for Luke always mentions by name important Apostles in his narration of Acts. But he says nothing of Peter’s meeting with Paul.

Why? Because Peter was not in Rome!

PROOF SEVEN: When Paul finally arrived at Rome, the first thing he did was to summon “the chief of the Jews together” (Acts 28:17) to whom he “expounded and testified the kingdom of God” (Verse 23). But what is amazing is that these chief Jewish elders claimed they knew very little even about the basic teachings of Christ. All they knew was that ‘‘as concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against" (Verse 22). Then Paul began to explain to them the basic teachings of Christ on the Kingdom of God. Some believed – the majority didn’t.

Now, what does all this mean? It means that if Peter, who was himself a strongly partisan Jew, had been preaching constantly in Rome for 14 long years before this time, AND WAS STILL THERE – how could these Jewish leaders have known so little about even the basic truths of Christianity? This again is clear proof Peter had not been in Rome prior to 59 A.D. No Mention of Peter in Paul’s Letters

PROOF EIGHT: After the rejection of the Jewish elders, Paul remained in his own hired house for two years. During that time he wrote Epistles to the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Colossians, Philemon, and to the Hebrews. And while Paul mentions others as being in Rome during that period, he nowhere mentions Peter. The obvious reason is – the Apostle to the circumcision wasn’t there!

PROOF NINE: With the expiration of Paul’s two year’s imprisonment, he was released. But about four years later (near 65 A.D.), he was again sent back a prisoner to Rome. This time he had to appear before the throne of Caesar and was sentenced to die. Paul describes these circumstances at length in II Timothy. In regard to his trial, notice what Paul said in II Timothy 4:16. “At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men [in Rome] forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.” This means, if we believe the Catholics, that Peter forsook Paul, for they tell us Peter was very much present at Rome during this time! Peter once denied Christ, but that was before he was converted. To believe that Peter was in Rome during Paul’s trial, is untenable!

PROOF TEN: The Apostle Paul distinctly informs us that Peter was not in Rome in 65 A.D. – even though Catholics say he was. Paul said: “Only Luke is with me” (II Tim. 4:11). The truth becomes very plain. Paul wrote TO Rome; he had been IN Rome; and at the end wrote at least six epistles FROM Rome; and not only does he NEVER mention Peter, but at the last moment says: “Only Luke is with me.” Peter, therefore, was never Bishop of Rome!

Where was Peter the apostle of Christ? At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows that he was elsewhere. The evidence is abundant and conclusive. By paying attention to God’s own words, no one need be deceived. Peter was NEVER the Bishop of Rome!

Near 45 A.D., we find Peter being cast into prison at Jerusalem (Acts 12:3, 4). In 49 A.D., he was still in Jerusalem, this time attending the Jerusalem Council. About 51 A.D., he was in Antioch of Syria where he got into differences with Paul because he wouldn’t sit or eat with Gentiles. Strange that the “Roman bishop” would have nothing to do with Gentiles in 51 A.D.! Later in about 66 A.D., we find him in the city of Babylon among the Jews (I Pet. 5:13). Remember that Peter was the Apostle to the CIRCUMCISED. Why was he in Babylon? Because history shows that there were as many Jews in the Mesopotamian areas in Christ’s time as there were in Palestine. It is no wonder we find him in the East. Perhaps this is the reason why scholars say Peter’s writings are strongly Aramaic in flavor, the type of Aramaic spoken in Babylon. Why of course! Peter was used to their eastern dialect.

At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows he was elsewhere. As previously mentioned there are many supposed historical accounts of Peter in Rome but none of them are first hand accounts and should not be put above the many accounts of The Bible.

We know from The Bible that the apostle Peter was not in Rome. There was a Simon Peter in Rome after the death of Christ but it is not the apostle Peter that was a fisherman from Jerusalem. Who is this Simon Peter that was in Rome during the middle of the first century? This is how the great false Church of Rome got its start; along with the first leader Simon Peter not the apostle Peter.*

Are you going to cite your source you got this from? I’ll try to take this point by point but itll take some time.
 
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