What would the world be like if Jesus was never here?

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Considering that it was his church (the Catholic church) that built and saved western civilization, there is no doubt that we would still be in the Dark Ages if it were not for Jesus. People these days don’t realize how much they owe the Christian Church for current civilization as we know it. Yet despite this and the numerous advancements in technology which enable convenient ways for us to learn more about the world and its past, people still bash the church as an enemy of progress (a lie that has been long debunked and yet continues to be spoken today). :rolleyes:
 
Personally, I think it would not have been that different, in one sense. If I may speak non-theologically, the rise of Christianity was not due to simply to Jesus- but the Romans and Greeks were looking for a new and decent system of value and understanding the life and the world.

I think if the neo-Platonism of Plotinus, of the theistic Stoicism of Epictetus, or even Hellenized Judaism, had filled the void created by the failing Classical Paganism, things wouldn’t be all that different. I mean, our ideas of right and wrong would probably be much the same.

As it is, we have Christianity, but wars still take place, there are still rich and poor, people still marry and have children. I don’t think the message of Jesus has shaped our society much at a fundamental level. The world still rules its own.
 
Religion? culture? history? morallity? etc.

What do you think the world would be like?

What would be different?
Since there are people who believe Jesus never existed, I would argue the world would be no different from the world we see. As an agnostic I would argue that whether or not Jesus existed is irrelevant to the world we see. Either way we all see the same world.
 
As it is, we have Christianity, but wars still take place, there are still rich and poor, people still marry and have children. I don’t think the message of Jesus has shaped our society much at a fundamental level. The world still rules its own.
I can’t say much on theistic stoicism, or the other philosophies you mentioned. However I do wonder why Greeks and Romans among the poor didn’t find themselves connecting to these religions before Christianity became dominate in Rome. In any case, just because rulers go against the strict perfection of what Jesus states doesn’t mean society was not shaped by it, especially at a fundamental level.
Since there are people who believe Jesus never existed, I would argue the world would be no different from the world we see. As an agnostic I would argue that whether or not Jesus existed is irrelevant to the world we see. Either way we all see the same world.
I’d say that it doesn’t matter if you’re agnostic or even atheist. You can still observe that Christianity had an effect on how the world was molded after the Fall of Rome. Also isn’t it rather shallow to simply figure that because some people believe Jesus didn’t exist that 2000 years worth of important figures brought up in Christianity also thought in that way?

The faith of a person does in fact change who they are and what actions they take. A pagan Charlemagne would have many differences to the historical Catholic one both with unique good and bad traits/actions.
 
Personally, I think it would not have been that different, in one sense. If I may speak non-theologically, the rise of Christianity was not due to simply to Jesus- but the Romans and Greeks were looking for a new and decent system of value and understanding the life and the world. .
So Constantine did’nt actually ‘believe’ in Jesus, but rather used the ‘idea’ of christianity to establish a new system…?
 
Since there are people who believe Jesus never existed, I would argue the world would be no different from the world we see. As an agnostic I would argue that whether or not Jesus existed is irrelevant to the world we see. Either way we all see the same world.
We all see the same world but we interpret the world in very different ways - as children of the same Father or strange freaks of nature related solely due to an accident of birth.
 
Religion? culture? history? morallity? etc.

What do you think the world would be like?

What would be different?
Itullian:

Kind of pre-last-and-final-Covenant-like. IOW, Old Testament-like.

God bless,
jd
 
Do you mean if Jesus was never coming? The world would not exist at all. Period. St. Pio said the earth would be more likely to exist without the sun than without the mass. No Jesus, no mercy. God, without having decided to redeem us, would have destroyed the world the moment Adam sinned.
 
I can’t say much on theistic stoicism, or the other philosophies you mentioned. However I do wonder why Greeks and Romans among the poor didn’t find themselves connecting to these religions before Christianity became dominate in Rome. In any case, just because rulers go against the strict perfection of what Jesus states doesn’t mean society was not shaped by it, especially at a fundamental level.

I’d say that it doesn’t matter if you’re agnostic or even atheist. You can still observe that Christianity had an effect on how the world was molded after the Fall of Rome. Also isn’t it rather shallow to simply figure that because some people believe Jesus didn’t exist that 2000 years worth of important figures brought up in Christianity also thought in that way?

The faith of a person does in fact change who they are and what actions they take. A pagan Charlemagne would have many differences to the historical Catholic one both with unique good and bad traits/actions.
No, the continuation of commercial society, class structures, power structures, etc., all indicate the Jesus’ teachings have NOT formed society at a fundamental level. Sure, there are many people who live their life according to the Gospel- but these are the exceptions, not the rule, the saints, the hermits, the missionaries, monks, the Amish (maybe) etc.

Christianity, by its very nature, is always excluded from the mainstream of the World:
“If you were of the world, the world would love you. But because my choice withdrew you from the world, the world hateth you.”
 
I don’t think Islam would exist. Muhammad was influenced a lot by his Christian relatives and friends, particuarly his wife’s cousin [apparently a priest] who consoled him after his “visions”. If Muhammad had not had that Christian cousin, he probably would have killed himself or kept his nonsense to himself.

I wonder seriously about whether or not Paganism would have allowed for any higher form of learning and science to evolve. But the Aztecs were pretty advanced, albeit brutal. However, I wouldn’t rule it out, as some of the Greek thinkers were quite clever at coming up with philosphies - and some boardered on atheisim and agonostic thinking.

I’d wager that we’d be a good few centuraries behind where we are now technologically. Or we’d all be a bunch of atheists as if someone said “well, actually the tides and tsunamis are caused by this, and not Posideon, and lightening is not caused by Zeus, and child birth infections are not caused by Hathor slacking off” no one’s going to continue worshipping pagan gods associated with natural occurances when those natural occurances are now solved by science. Of course, there could be the mindset of well “why do we need to know hwo lightening works because Zeus is in control and investigating could annoy Zeus”.

If the Jews were around, I’d say we’d more than likely be that.
 
Since there are people who believe Jesus never existed, I would argue the world would be no different from the world we see. As an agnostic I would argue that whether or not Jesus existed is irrelevant to the world we see. Either way we all see the same world.
Do you know how chaotic it was after Rome’s fall? With the return of trial of ordeal, the decline in learning (few people except the clergy learned to read and write), the lack of central authority (government), the disappearance of urban life, constant warring and economic turmoil, western civilization suffered a breakdown in every area of life and culture. People lived in fear and uncertainty. No one cared about learning, business or entertainment, they cared for survival. For the people during these times, it wasn’t about next week and next month but today and tomorrow. With the collapse of civilization during the Middle Ages, it was the strength and organization of the Christian Church that gave form and unity to Europe.

The church was the leading institution in medieval society. Not only was it responsible for spiritual matters, it also assumed the powers and responsibilities that were given to the government. Though society and government were fragmented, the Christian church stood strong admist the chaos and was the bond that united the Christian people. The educated clergy were often the only able men capable of managing the administration of the rapidly deteriorating cities. Nearly everyone in medieval Europe sought comfort in the Church and viewed it as the guardian and interpreter of religious truth. Priests administered the sacraments, gave advice, taught people the rules of right and wrong and helped the sick and the needy. Local churches were centers of village life where families gathered for worship and to celebrate Church festivals.

Christian monks and nuns made important contributions to medieval society. They taught new methods of farming, carpentry and weaving skills to the people which led to advancements in knowledge. Convents and monasteries also established hospitals, libraries, orphanages, schools, provided shelter for travelers and were centers of learning. Monks preserved classical learning by reading and writing Latin (Latin was in danger of disappearing) and Greek (knowledge of Greek had practically disappeared in Europe!). Determined to preserve a heritage they viewed as “too precious to be lost”, they studied all surviving ancient manuscripts and copied them by hand (these copies are what we have today).

Schools were headed by the church from early monastic schools, to cathedral schools (which started emerging with the rise of the first cities), to the universities (you would be surprised on how exceptional Catholic education was and the many notable progenies it gave birth to).* “Catholic thinkers were willing to explore every aspect of reality because of their commitment to rational analysis and their confidence in human reason. For them, the intellect was the highest faculty of the soul and the truth it discerns could not possibly contradict the truths of Faith because God was the author of both.”* The church promoted learning and progress in all fields. They funded and encouraged the sciences, gave papal charters to universities in protection and support of academic freedom.

It was Catholic thought that dominated the middle ages that led to the emphasis on education, progress, virtue and social justice in society (see the idea of chivalry or the mondus operandi of medieval guilds for examples on virtue and social justice). It was also Christian monks who tutored Barbaric rulers, rulers who gave birth to a royal lineage of kings of different realms.

The Catholic Church not only saved Western civilization, it built it and to deny this would show how ignorant you are of Medieval history. Without the church, we would be living in a very primitive and superstitious world. 😃
 
yes, this is the kind of stuff i was trying to get at. the enormity of the impact He had on the world. you really have to ponder on it to realize it all.
 
Do you know how chaotic it was after Rome’s fall? With the return of trial of ordeal, the decline in learning (few people except the clergy learned to read and write), the lack of central authority (government), the disappearance of urban life, constant warring and economic turmoil, western civilization suffered a breakdown in every area of life and culture. People lived in fear and uncertainty. No one cared about learning, business or entertainment, they cared for survival. For the people during these times, it wasn’t about next week and next month but today and tomorrow. With the collapse of civilization during the Middle Ages, it was the strength and organization of the Christian Church that gave form and unity to Europe.

The church was the leading institution in medieval society. Not only was it responsible for spiritual matters, it also assumed the powers and responsibilities that were given to the government. Though society and government were fragmented, the Christian church stood strong admist the chaos and was the bond that united the Christian people. The educated clergy were often the only able men capable of managing the administration of the rapidly deteriorating cities. Nearly everyone in medieval Europe sought comfort in the Church and viewed it as the guardian and interpreter of religious truth. Priests administered the sacraments, gave advice, taught people the rules of right and wrong and helped the sick and the needy. Local churches were centers of village life where families gathered for worship and to celebrate Church festivals.

Christian monks and nuns made important contributions to medieval society. They taught new methods of farming, carpentry and weaving skills to the people which led to advancements in knowledge. Convents and monasteries also established hospitals, libraries, orphanages, schools, provided shelter for travelers and were centers of learning. Monks preserved classical learning by reading and writing Latin (Latin was in danger of disappearing) and Greek (knowledge of Greek had practically disappeared in Europe!). Determined to preserve a heritage they viewed as “too precious to be lost”, they studied all surviving ancient manuscripts and copied them by hand (these copies are what we have today).

Schools were headed by the church from early monastic schools, to cathedral schools (which started emerging with the rise of the first cities), to the universities (you would be surprised on how exceptional Catholic education was and the many notable progenies it gave birth to).* “Catholic thinkers were willing to explore every aspect of reality because of their commitment to rational analysis and their confidence in human reason. For them, the intellect was the highest faculty of the soul and the truth it discerns could not possibly contradict the truths of Faith because God was the author of both.”* The church promoted learning and progress in all fields. They funded and encouraged the sciences, gave papal charters to universities in protection and support of academic freedom.

It was Catholic thought that dominated the middle ages that led to the emphasis on education, progress, virtue and social justice in society (see the idea of chivalry or the mondus operandi of medieval guilds for examples on virtue and social justice). It was also Christian monks who tutored Barbaric rulers, rulers who gave birth to a royal lineage of kings of different realms.

The Catholic Church not only saved Western civilization, it built it and to deny this would show how ignorant you are of Medieval history. Without the church, we would be living in a very primitive and superstitious world. 😃
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the original question or my response to it.

Are you suggesting that I have somehow denied the church’s role in the building of our civilization or that I am ignorant of medieval history?

I give the Catholic Church due credit for it’s role in building our civilization. Without the Catholic Church, the world today would certainly be a very different place. But that has nothing to do with the original question of what the world would be like if Jesus never existed. As I see things it is entirely possible that the Catholic religion was built on a myth, which makes the existence of an actual historical “Christ” figure irrelevant to the world we see today.
 
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the original question or my response to it.

Are you suggesting that I have somehow denied the church’s role in the building of our civilization or that I am ignorant of medieval history?

I give the Catholic Church due credit for it’s role in building our civilization. Without the Catholic Church, the world today would certainly be a very different place. But that has nothing to do with the original question of what the world would be like if Jesus never existed. As I see things it is entirely possible that the Catholic religion was built on a myth, which makes the existence of an actual historical “Christ” figure irrelevant to the world we see today.
if Christ never came where would the myth come from?
 
I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the original question or my response to it.

Are you suggesting that I have somehow denied the church’s role in the building of our civilization or that I am ignorant of medieval history?

I give the Catholic Church due credit for it’s role in building our civilization. Without the Catholic Church, the world today would certainly be a very different place. But that has nothing to do with the original question of what the world would be like if Jesus never existed. As I see things it is entirely possible that the Catholic religion was built on a myth, which makes the existence of an actual historical “Christ” figure irrelevant to the world we see today.
If the Catholic religion were built on a myth where would the noblest moral teaching the world has known have come from? Your solution raises more problems than it solves!
 
If the Catholic religion were built on a myth where would the noblest moral teaching the world has known have come from? Your solution raises more problems than it solves!
What is the “noblest moral teaching the world has ever known”? The answer is subjective and open to opinion. Christianity is no more noble or moral than any other religion.
 
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