What would the world be like if the Reformation never occurred, and every Protestant Church was Catholic?

[Contarini]

I think if Christendom had remained unified under the Catholic Church, the Church would have eventually liberalized and/or reformed on its own.
OR (and this is perhaps more likely) most people would basically become cultural Catholics.

Regardless of what the elite think, its not feasible for a theocracy to keep the masses fanatically devoted indefinitely.

1. Medieval Christendom was not a theocracy, though the Popes at times tried to make it one;
2. The “masses” were never fanatically devoted, except perhaps for brief moments such as the People’s Crusade. In fact, the Church hierarchy in many ways feared popular fanaticism more than they encouraged it.

 

[hn160]

What do you make out of this article on the death of Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini ?

ROME – The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favoured by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favour of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

More than 200,000 people filed past Martini’s body lying in state in the soaring gothic cathedral over the weekend, underling the love and respect in which he was held in Italy’s business capital,where he was archbishop for more than 20 years.

Milan’s Corriere della Sera newspaper said those paying tribute “did not all believe in God but certainly believed in the cardinal.”

 

[joe370]

What do you make out of this article on the death of Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini ?

ROME – The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favoured by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favour of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

More than 200,000 people filed past Martini’s body lying in state in the soaring gothic cathedral over the weekend, underling the love and respect in which he was held in Italy’s business capital,where he was archbishop for more than 20 years.

Milan’s Corriere della Sera newspaper said those paying tribute “did not all believe in God but certainly believed in the cardinal.”

I agree with Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini. As per scripture, the Devil and company will never stop trying to destroy Jesus’ Mystical Body, the church of which Jesus is the Head and Savior, therefore His church leaders must be forever vigilant in stemming the attack from within especially…

 

[JonNC]

What do you make out of this article on the death of Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini ?

ROME – The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favoured by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favour of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

More than 200,000 people filed past Martini’s body lying in state in the soaring gothic cathedral over the weekend, underling the love and respect in which he was held in Italy’s business capital,where he was archbishop for more than 20 years.

Milan’s Corriere della Sera newspaper said those paying tribute “did not all believe in God but certainly believed in the cardinal.”

I. OTOH, like Pope Benedict. He has proven himself fair-minded towards lutherans and others. As for the conservative v. progressive argument, I am reminded that(metaphorically) it took Nixon to go to China.

Jon

 

[AngryAtheist8]

1. Medieval Christendom was not a theocracy, though the Popes at times tried to make it one;

2. The “masses” were never fanatically devoted, except perhaps for brief moments such as the People’s Crusade. In fact, the Church hierarchy in many ways feared popular fanaticism more than they encouraged it.

That’s kind of my point.
Its neither possible nor even desirable to keep the populace in a state of extreme religious fervor.

 

[Izdaari]

What do you make out of this article on the death of Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini ?

ROME – The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favoured by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favour of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

More than 200,000 people filed past Martini’s body lying in state in the soaring gothic cathedral over the weekend, underling the love and respect in which he was held in Italy’s business capital,where he was archbishop for more than 20 years.

Milan’s Corriere della Sera newspaper said those paying tribute “did not all believe in God but certainly believed in the cardinal.”

I agree with Cardinal Martini. And if there had been no Protestant Reformation, and if the Catholic Church lacked that competition and source of ideas? It might be 600 years out of date instead of 200.

 

[minion]

I agree with Cardinal Martini. And if there had been no Protestant Reformation, and if the Catholic Church lacked that competition and source of ideas? It might be 600 years out of date instead of 200.

What issues did the Church flip on?

 

[Izdaari]

What issues did the Church flip on?

I didn’t have anything specific in mind. But how long would it have taken to stop selling indulgences if Luther hadn’t made such a big stink about it? And would Vatican II have happened at all?

 

[Contarini]

I didn’t have anything specific in mind. But how long would it have taken to stop selling indulgences if Luther hadn’t made such a big stink about it? And would Vatican II have happened at all?

Something like it might have happened hundreds of years earlier. Erasmus’ ideas were very popular in the early sixteenth century, and he had a lot of support in the papal Curia (in fact, the Pope and cardinals often protected him against the university theologians who were the diehard conservatives of that day–sort of the reverse of how things are now). But Erasmus was discredited once his ideas were linked to Protestantism. For centuries such things as lay Bible reading and vernacular liturgy were resisted by the Catholic hierarchy because they were seen as “Protestant.”

Counterfactuals can’t be proven. But I think it’s at least as likely that many of the reforms of Vatican II would have happened much sooner if there had been no major schism than that they would never have happened at all.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I agree with Cardinal Martini. And if there had been no Protestant Reformation, and if the Catholic Church lacked that competition and source of ideas? It might be 600 years out of date instead of 200.

I have never been impressed with the metaphor of being “out of date.” I have never been convinced that it says anything meaningful, except perhaps about the person using it (but charity makes me hesitate to draw that latter conclusion).

Truth and falsehood I understand, a little. Good and evil I understand, a little. Love and hate I understand, a little.

This being out of date I do not understand at all.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I have never been impressed with the metaphor of being “out of date.” I have never been convinced that it says anything meaningful, except perhaps about the person using it (but charity makes me hesitate to draw that latter conclusion).

Truth and falsehood I understand, a little. Good and evil I understand, a little. Love and hate I understand, a little.

This being out of date I do not understand at all.

Edwin

Chronological snobbery.

GKC

 

[AngryAtheist8]

What issues did the Church flip on?

The issue of Italy for one.

Link to source:
npr.org/2011/03/17/134602534/a-divided-italy-prepares-for-unification-anniversary

 

[minion]

The issue of Italy for one.

Link to source:
npr.org/2011/03/17/134602534/a-divided-italy-prepares-for-unification-anniversary

Question was meant in regards to Catholic faith and morality.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Question was meant in regards to Catholic faith and morality.

The Catholic Church excommunicated the 1st king of Italy for claiming that title.
How is public excommunication not a matter of faith?

 

[minion]

The Catholic Church excommunicated the 1st king of Italy for claiming that title.
How is public excommunication not a matter of faith?

I suppose I should’ve been more clear. Matters of faith concerning the beliefs of Catholic doctrine and morality, which have changed. Such as the Church’s position on abortion, or the divinity of Christ.

So in terms of Excommunication, I mean how has the nature of Excommunication changed from how it was before (see newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm for an in-depth explanation of excommunication).

The fact that Excommunication is abused, I won’t deny. Joan of Arc was unjustly excommunicated, and she became a Catholic Saint.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I suppose I should’ve been more clear. Matters of faith concerning the beliefs of Catholic doctrine and morality, which have changed. Such as the Church’s position on abortion, or the divinity of Christ.

So in terms of Excommunication, I mean how has the nature of Excommunication changed from how it was before (see newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm for an in-depth explanation of excommunication).

The fact that Excommunication is abused, I won’t deny. Joan of Arc was unjustly excommunicated, and she became a Catholic Saint.

If Popes are imperfect when it comes to matters of excommunication (which is very important with regard to an individual’s soul, at least according to the Church), why should we assume their perfect in any other area?

 

[minion]

If Popes are imperfect when it comes to matters of excommunication (which is very important with regard to an individual’s soul, at least according to the Church), why should we assume their perfect in any other area?

If a teacher says 1+1 = 2, then makes a mistake in an equation later, or the teacher rapes a student, it doesn’t mean 1+1 no longer equals 2.

More on excommunication:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=156179

Excommunication is harsh, but it is not a sentence that consigns someone to hell. It’s not like the Pope can read your heart, only observe your actions, and publicly condemn it.

How would you, personally, deal with dissidents undermining and confusing your faithful’s beliefs? You have to do something, you can’t just let the error spread.

Say, you led an Atheist organization, and some pedophile was a member, and kept promulgating the belief, “rape is okay, rape is okay, it helps make reluctant women reproduce.” Then, some more members started to believe it. Then, people started thinking all atheists believed it. Then, some atheists started raping women. What do you do? Probably, a secular form of excommunication. But, if you have an alternative (beyond just murdering him), please share.

 

[benjohnson]

I suppose I should’ve been more clear. Matters of faith concerning the beliefs of Catholic doctrine and morality, which have changed. .

I think it would be fair to say that Pope John XXII taught an idea of Beatific Vison that was rescinded later. Though, as I understand it, The Catholic church teaches that Pope John’s sermons were not official promulgation.

 

[Adonai_saves]

This question was bouncing around my brain lately, and I’ve been hearing things like the Crusades and the Inquisition really weren’t as bad as they were made out to be, due to revisionist history, etc…

And, after passing by three different Protestant denomination churches while driving, I resolved to post my question online.

So, would the World be a better place, and more unified? Or would the centralization of power and influence in the Church corrupt high ranking officials, and make current affairs still bad, just in a different way?

I truly believe if people would get off the subject of denominations and seek out God’s love to engulf their entire life, we would than be about the work here on earth that Yeshua wanted us to be doing.

Feeding the poor, taking care of the sick and homeless…sharing the Gospel. These are the things that Yeshua told us to do and what he did. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[spbill]

In order to answer the question one has to start from what the world looks like today that would be different.

There have been 53 million abortions in the USA. It is probably safe to say that would not be the case.

It is also probably safe to say that there would not be homosexual marriages, doctor assisted suicide, etc., if the secular governments were not in the business of legislating morality, or immorality.

Jesus commanded unityu of His Church. The thousands of denominations is disobedience to the Lord. The consequences of disobedience are severe.

I could make an argument that the world wars would not have happened if the Church were united. The consequences of the enlightenment are a world drenched in blood at the hands of secular civil states untethered by a moral voice, or their own moral voices…

I don’t pretend to be a scholar, although I study and pray. With the weight of John 17 it is important to take this desire for unity. Although there is the historical precedence of 2000 years, we should pray the Spirit moves in today’s Christians and leaders and seek for unity here. As we conform to Christ, seeking first …, we should be drawn to unity.