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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I’ll go and check it out. Litcrit’s blog also.
- Status
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Being a mother is like being baptised, or perhaps like being ordained. You can be really really bad at it and forsake your mission to the point that you scandalize everyone who knows what you are, yet you still are what you are. The mark is indelible. That’s the tragedy. Motherhood, like baptism, is the greatest of gifts, yet it is possible to treat either one as if they were a burden or an impossible demand. That is what makes it so hard on the children…they know who their mother is. It is their mother who doesn’t know who she is, or forgets that she must always act according to who she is. The children know, though, and they don’t forget.That makes me so sad. Truthfully? She never got a “Mommy Button” in the first place, so you can’t take it back. She gave birth, that’s all. Mommies don’t act like that, or say things like that to their children.
Mommamaree, you do not need your mother’s “Mommy Button” rattling around in your drawer. That is a mark on her soul, not yours, and it will be hers at the judgement, too, whether that be for condemnation or merely regret and grief. You have a “Mommy Button” of your own to see to. May God help you make it into a crown worthy to be thrown at the foot of his Holy Throne, when the day comes, and may your children praise you.
Seek consolation and healing for the ways in which your mother has failed you and wounded you, but do not take anything upon yourself that belongs to your mother’s work to cope with. You can leave that to her to deal with. Do not try to be everything she was not, for example. Be what you were made to be, yourself alone!
It is OK. You are right: her work with you, such as it was, is done, not because there is no work left to do but because that gate needs to close, for your sake. None of us get an infinite number of opportunities. If she comes to her senses, there is good left in the world for her to do. You can leave her to do that, and with a good conscience on your part. For your own sake, though, leave that piece of hardware back on her doorstep, and be free of it. Grieve what it was not, yes, but leave it behind. See your own place as a mother as a very special opportunity, too–as the gift that it is. She did not know what she had, we don’t know why, but by the grace of God, you do know what you have. Give thanks…and allow yourself to still be a human being. Crowns that are actually worn show wear. Keep that in mind, OK?
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I’ve been reading the NPD blogs and keep wondering about something. How did you convince people that your experience was true? Because people don’t believe me. I am not the melodramatic type. I don’t make stuff up. But still, even people who know me well don’t really believe me. I’m going home for a 2 week visit in exactly a month and I am already dreading the questions. Has he been in touch? Will you contact him? What do you plan to do about this situation? And even worse, the comforting comments: don’t worry darling, he will come to his senses and everything will be ok. I get this every time I go home. I try to explain that I am done with my dad but I am not taken seriously. People seem to think that I am just hurt and offended and that this will pass. It is truly infuriating. Any advice on how to handle this is most welcome.
L
Litcrit
Guest
Oh, dear CM! That’s a tough one! Many of us have found that most people from imperfect, but loving families can’t or won’t understand and believe that it is possible for parents to not love their children and not want the best for them.
This is a constant cause of strife with my ILs. They’re warm, nice people who genuinely love us, but they can’t wrap their minds around my assertion that my NF is simply incapable of love and thus does not love me or his grandchildren and should not be trusted.
I have come to the point where, having received a confirmation of my father’s diagnosis from a psychologist who knows him well, and validation from those who understand online, and the support of my husband and aunt, I don’t need to convince others in my life. I didn’t want to believe this myself when I first suspected it - Liberanosamalo here opened my eyes (thank you if you’re still around) - and it’s not something people like to believe. People like to believe that all parents love their children, all doctors practice ethically, all teachers are fair, etc.
Sending virtual hugs and prayers. I seem to recall we come from the same part of the world and family is sooo important here and no one seems to mind their own business, so your upcoming trip sounds daunting.
I guess I’d repeat clinical information about NPD and why emotionally involving oneself with a narcissistically disordered person is futile and can be dangerous, especially when children are involved. Would they let their kids around, say, a psychopath or a sociopath? “Narcissism” sounds benign compared to these, but that’s only because so much popular use of the word has turned it into something meaning “kind of selfish and self-centered,” when it’s really much more than that. People without empathy are dangerous and not to be trusted.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Say this: “The situation is still very painful. I’ve tried to explain myself, but no one seems to believe me. I’m going to quit explaining and just get to the bottom line: I am done with Dad. No one gets an infinite number of opportunities, and he’s used all of his up. That’s it, that’s all, case closed, and there is nothing to discuss. The question period is over.” If they don’t believe you, well, that doesn’t make you heir to Cassandra’s curse. Let them remain ignorant.
You may need to repeat “I said that’s it, and there’s nothing to discuss, and I did mean That Is It. No discussion! No nothing! That’s it!” until they give up, but at some point, you can give them a look that says “English is the only language we’re both fluent in, so I give up” and ignore further questions on the topic.
B
Bill_7154
Guest
Hi,
I read your OP a while back and think I made a post as well. Since then I have skimmed this thread from time to time.
Are you sure your mom is a socio-path? Socio-paths typically don’t drive people crazy or cause upheaval in their lives based on their emotional interactions with them. In fact sociopaths are some of the most adaptive disfunctional people out there. Serial killers are socio paths. So are some CEO’s and other highly financially successful poeple in the business world. They are able to put on or adopt social behaviors that are quite adaptive, even charming and making people want to be around them.
So if you think your mom is still a socio-path I suggest you reconsider and get some (name removed by moderator)ut from someone who knows how to differentiate between different personality disorders or other forms of mental illness.
More importantly, how the relationship impacts you and how you cope is what is really important.
There are several different groups here on this forum devoted to different peple in different circumstances (coping with PTSD, disfuctional families, et) where people post their problems and issues and are with others who have similar problems and issues. I am not ashamed to say I belong to several.
But I would suggest you consider letting go of diagnosing your mom as a socio-path, figure out what type of personality disorder she actually does have, and then from there work to learn how to cope with people who have that disorder (or cluster of symptoms that fit her disorder or sub-group of personality disorders that are similar to one another).
Just like a doctor correctly identifying what a patients ailment is is important in treating him (don’t want to treat a person with a broken leg for diabetes) it’s important to correctly identify what sub group of personality disorders your mom falls into, and from there learning coping strategies on how to successfully cope with dealing with that.
Things like setting boundaries can be very important and very helpful. It’s not helpful to get caught up in the worldwind of someone else’s crisis and winding up a wreck youself. I know abou that all too well.
I left home to move into a homeless shelter b/c I was raised in a very abusive home and was the family scapegoat. As such, whenever anything went wrong with anyone in the family, I was automatically to blame. And since this manifested over a period of a couple decades there were thinking patters and behaviors I engaged in as part of this disfunctional family that I did not even realize I was doing. It took me getting OUT Of there in order for me to get help. The family tried to pull me back in as without me there they had to face their own problems rather than having me as the scapegoat to focus on and blame. My mom was actually angry at me for insisting that I walk to counseling myself rather than having her take off from work, drive me there, take off from work to pick me up and drive me home, and then go back to work. This was a manifestation of her being co-dependent and using me to focus on. When I started to engage in a healing process independent from the family it turned the family on it’s head. They all got extremely, extremely anxious. It upset the family system, the disfunctional system. And disfuctional family systems don’t want to be disrupted any more than functional family systems want to be disrupted with DISFUNCTION.
So I think your main issue (again I only skimmed) is to figure out a way to separate (either figuratively or literally, emotionally or litrerally) to improve your ability to cope with the stresss. Your not going to cure your mother. And at a certain point focusing on the problems and issues of another family member, particularly when it is causing US emotional upheaval and distresss, is counter productive for ourselves and is not helping the family member either.
And again, I recommend you check into the groups offered here at this site, as it seems your issue is ongoing so you could benefit from being around others with similar issues to post and read posts of, it would be a more focused way of getting help with this issue form this site.
And by honing in on what the issue is/issues are you will be better able to receive quality support and services.
God Bless,
Bill
I read your OP a while back and think I made a post as well. Since then I have skimmed this thread from time to time.
Are you sure your mom is a socio-path? Socio-paths typically don’t drive people crazy or cause upheaval in their lives based on their emotional interactions with them. In fact sociopaths are some of the most adaptive disfunctional people out there. Serial killers are socio paths. So are some CEO’s and other highly financially successful poeple in the business world. They are able to put on or adopt social behaviors that are quite adaptive, even charming and making people want to be around them.
So if you think your mom is still a socio-path I suggest you reconsider and get some (name removed by moderator)ut from someone who knows how to differentiate between different personality disorders or other forms of mental illness.
More importantly, how the relationship impacts you and how you cope is what is really important.
There are several different groups here on this forum devoted to different peple in different circumstances (coping with PTSD, disfuctional families, et) where people post their problems and issues and are with others who have similar problems and issues. I am not ashamed to say I belong to several.
But I would suggest you consider letting go of diagnosing your mom as a socio-path, figure out what type of personality disorder she actually does have, and then from there work to learn how to cope with people who have that disorder (or cluster of symptoms that fit her disorder or sub-group of personality disorders that are similar to one another).
Just like a doctor correctly identifying what a patients ailment is is important in treating him (don’t want to treat a person with a broken leg for diabetes) it’s important to correctly identify what sub group of personality disorders your mom falls into, and from there learning coping strategies on how to successfully cope with dealing with that.
Things like setting boundaries can be very important and very helpful. It’s not helpful to get caught up in the worldwind of someone else’s crisis and winding up a wreck youself. I know abou that all too well.
I left home to move into a homeless shelter b/c I was raised in a very abusive home and was the family scapegoat. As such, whenever anything went wrong with anyone in the family, I was automatically to blame. And since this manifested over a period of a couple decades there were thinking patters and behaviors I engaged in as part of this disfunctional family that I did not even realize I was doing. It took me getting OUT Of there in order for me to get help. The family tried to pull me back in as without me there they had to face their own problems rather than having me as the scapegoat to focus on and blame. My mom was actually angry at me for insisting that I walk to counseling myself rather than having her take off from work, drive me there, take off from work to pick me up and drive me home, and then go back to work. This was a manifestation of her being co-dependent and using me to focus on. When I started to engage in a healing process independent from the family it turned the family on it’s head. They all got extremely, extremely anxious. It upset the family system, the disfunctional system. And disfuctional family systems don’t want to be disrupted any more than functional family systems want to be disrupted with DISFUNCTION.
So I think your main issue (again I only skimmed) is to figure out a way to separate (either figuratively or literally, emotionally or litrerally) to improve your ability to cope with the stresss. Your not going to cure your mother. And at a certain point focusing on the problems and issues of another family member, particularly when it is causing US emotional upheaval and distresss, is counter productive for ourselves and is not helping the family member either.
And again, I recommend you check into the groups offered here at this site, as it seems your issue is ongoing so you could benefit from being around others with similar issues to post and read posts of, it would be a more focused way of getting help with this issue form this site.
And by honing in on what the issue is/issues are you will be better able to receive quality support and services.
God Bless,
Bill
C
Cerne
Guest
Contra Mundum;9852744:
You need to understand this, the subtleties of psychological violence will go over most peoples head.
Have a look at this page for a list of reasons why family members, friends, bystanders, colleagues or whoever, will fail to understand your point of view-
bullyonline.org/workbully/bystand.htm
The above site deals mainly with dealing with someone with a personality disorder in the workplace but it is applicable to any setting, including a family setting.
Two important points I would take from this page are-
• work colleagues (or family members) often have no understanding or experience of bullying, manipulation, psychological violence, etc
• unlike assault and harassment, bullying is subtle and comprises hundreds, perhaps thousands, of incidents which out of context and in isolation are trivial - thus bystanders can’t see the full picture
People not believing you is incredibly common. In fact it happens in almost all cases when one is dealing with someone with NPD. That is why the person with NPD can get away with it for years, often for decades.
You need to understand this, the subtleties of psychological violence will go over most peoples head.
Have a look at this page for a list of reasons why family members, friends, bystanders, colleagues or whoever, will fail to understand your point of view-
bullyonline.org/workbully/bystand.htm
The above site deals mainly with dealing with someone with a personality disorder in the workplace but it is applicable to any setting, including a family setting.
Two important points I would take from this page are-
• work colleagues (or family members) often have no understanding or experience of bullying, manipulation, psychological violence, etc
• unlike assault and harassment, bullying is subtle and comprises hundreds, perhaps thousands, of incidents which out of context and in isolation are trivial - thus bystanders can’t see the full picture
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Litcrit, Easter Joy and Cerne,
thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Cerne, I will check out the link about bullying. I normally try to find a way of explaining my story to my friends in a credible way. I admitted I went to councelling because he was the source of constant anxiety and panic attacks and I couldn’t cope. Even this is not enough to convince people. The fact that he started bullying my husband is not proof enough. The fact that he started using my children to manipulate me is not enough. Whenever they engage me in a conversation about this I always end up telling them about isolated incidents as examples. I choose juicy material in order to make my point, but it is true, they are just trivial examples of nastiness for my friends, not enough to justify my decision to cut him off. This refusal to believe me is so cruel, and I swear that made me suffer more than the actual separation from my NF.
Litcrit, you are so right about this having a lot to do with culture. You understand exactly what my context is and what the implications are. People say “I understand that you went through a lot of crazy stuff, but he is your father.” And my favourite: “He gave you a lot of money. That made thing possible for you. Surely he is not all bad.” End of story. It is not his nastiness that deserves condemnation but my desire to stand up for myself and to protect myself from further bullying. For several years I used to dream about moving back home with my family, but now I know that there is no way I could do that. This realisation breaks my heart but it is for the best.
Easter Joy, I think I will use that as a response. Verbatum
I must stop explaining myself and simply repeat that I am dealing with a person who has a serious psychological problem and that by not being in contact I am protecting myself and my family. I hope that maybe in 10 years time people will tire of asking me about this and let it be.
What a mess. I tried so hard for many years to have some kind of a relationship with my NF, one of the reasons being that I was aware people would condemn me for cutting contact. But he then crossed the line in such an insane way that I couldn’t put up with it anymore. Me walking away was not planned, it just happened after that last argument. As I was walking home I was thinking: “This is it. I’m done. I’m so done with this freak.” I still can’t believe this is happening, that this is the reality of my family life.
thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Cerne, I will check out the link about bullying. I normally try to find a way of explaining my story to my friends in a credible way. I admitted I went to councelling because he was the source of constant anxiety and panic attacks and I couldn’t cope. Even this is not enough to convince people. The fact that he started bullying my husband is not proof enough. The fact that he started using my children to manipulate me is not enough. Whenever they engage me in a conversation about this I always end up telling them about isolated incidents as examples. I choose juicy material in order to make my point, but it is true, they are just trivial examples of nastiness for my friends, not enough to justify my decision to cut him off. This refusal to believe me is so cruel, and I swear that made me suffer more than the actual separation from my NF.
Litcrit, you are so right about this having a lot to do with culture. You understand exactly what my context is and what the implications are. People say “I understand that you went through a lot of crazy stuff, but he is your father.” And my favourite: “He gave you a lot of money. That made thing possible for you. Surely he is not all bad.” End of story. It is not his nastiness that deserves condemnation but my desire to stand up for myself and to protect myself from further bullying. For several years I used to dream about moving back home with my family, but now I know that there is no way I could do that. This realisation breaks my heart but it is for the best.
Easter Joy, I think I will use that as a response. Verbatum
I must stop explaining myself and simply repeat that I am dealing with a person who has a serious psychological problem and that by not being in contact I am protecting myself and my family. I hope that maybe in 10 years time people will tire of asking me about this and let it be.What a mess. I tried so hard for many years to have some kind of a relationship with my NF, one of the reasons being that I was aware people would condemn me for cutting contact. But he then crossed the line in such an insane way that I couldn’t put up with it anymore. Me walking away was not planned, it just happened after that last argument. As I was walking home I was thinking: “This is it. I’m done. I’m so done with this freak.” I still can’t believe this is happening, that this is the reality of my family life.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
I feel sad that you have to put up with this, but I also feel so proud of you. It is an inspiration to hear that someone realizes that she has the blessing of Heaven to treat herself with dignity and to deny access to those who only assault her peace. It is such a blessing that you have learned to ignore rash judgment in order to be true to that which is true. They say that when someone suffers, everyone suffers. When someone is enslaved, no one is entirely free. I think, too, that when someone sets herself free, when someone claims her own dignity, when someone puts herself on the line to claim freedom for her family, the whole world is more free, because of her courage. It is a work of love to testify to the truth:Litcrit, Easter Joy and Cerne,
thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Cerne, I will check out the link about bullying. I normally try to find a way of explaining my story to my friends in a credible way. I admitted I went to councelling because he was the source of constant anxiety and panic attacks and I couldn’t cope. Even this is not enough to convince people. The fact that he started bullying my husband is not proof enough. The fact that he started using my children to manipulate me is not enough. Whenever they engage me in a conversation about this I always end up telling them about isolated incidents as examples. I choose juicy material in order to make my point, but it is true, they are just trivial examples of nastiness for my friends, not enough to justify my decision to cut him off. This refusal to believe me is so cruel, and I swear that made me suffer more than the actual separation from my NF.
Litcrit, you are so right about this having a lot to do with culture. You understand exactly what my context is and what the implications are. People say “I understand that you went through a lot of crazy stuff, but he is your father.” And my favourite: “He gave you a lot of money. That made thing possible for you. Surely he is not all bad.” End of story. It is not his nastiness that deserves condemnation but my desire to stand up for myself and to protect myself from further bullying. For several years I used to dream about moving back home with my family, but now I know that there is no way I could do that. This realisation breaks my heart but it is for the best.
Easter Joy, I think I will use that as a response. Verbatum
What a mess. I tried so hard for many years to have some kind of a relationship with my NF, one of the reasons being that I was aware people would condemn me for cutting contact. But he then crossed the line in such an insane way that I couldn’t put up with it anymore. Me walking away was not planned, it just happened after that last argument. As I was walking home I was thinking: “This is it. I’m done. I’m so done with this freak.” I still can’t believe this is happening, that this is the reality of my family life.
Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?” John 18:23
There is more dignity, respect, and peace in the world because of what you’re doing. Keep at it, and God bless you!!
M
mamaslo
Guest
I have been out of pocket for a few days and I am glad this topic is still ongoing. I read earlier in this thread about how narcissists are master manipulators and how they even fool counselors. I have experienced this! I would get so frustrated and hurt that no one was “getting” what I was saying about the situation. Until my daughter went to a counselor who specializes in adolescence. She pointed it out right away. I asked her later, how she knows when my STBE wasn’t there. She heard the stories from my DDs perspective and my counselor told me she spent the first 5 years of her career counseling women in abuse shelters. So she is very sensitive to narcissism and the kind of abuse that goes with it.
I saw my STBE yesterday at our son’s race and the race is about the kids running and the team. He hung real close, mind you he slapped me with divorce papers the week before I was laid off (he knew it too it was coming for two years, but I digress). All he could talk about was “I did this, and I did that…” Grrrr. then I spent the next day (today, just hiding out from people. I am in a bad way anyway right now but that had to be a trigger. I thought to myself when he was waxing poetically about his list of accomplishments at our son’s race, “why do you keep telling about you when it is our son’s race and his team’s race?” Still walking around as if he is so gracious. blech!
Keep on talking folks. I needed the affirmation that it wasn’t just me when I had people, tell me “at least he is bringing the kids to church” then he would sit there and not participate, and had a nasty look on his face with arms crossed and all the drama he could muster while he filed out of the pew to loiter along the wall, while he “graciously” let all the communicants stroll by as he waved them through…I got so tired of the phrase “at least he…” whatever it was. No one wanted to really take time to understand. Well I can’t say “no one” very few. The priests though, and some folks saw his insincerity. Although, they too I think were hoping he would wake up. But, I don’t think they do…often.
anyway, thank you for continuing the thread. It has been a long and painful journey. the latest I had to tell him to leave my friend alone. He was pulling him away from youth group planning, after the races, and after the show of graciousness with me, told him how we forced him outof his home, and we lie about his behavior. My daughter ended up in the ER with an anxiety attack due to the situation and it is us lying and forcing him out? Thankfully, the friend knows me well enough to defend me while I am not there. But he also tried to call my husband to task about his solution to not change but divorce us…I had to tell my husband to leave my friend alone. my friend would not tell him “no” he would try to be his friend and brother and help…eventhough, it is only manipulation he gets in return.
thanks for listening. Not too many will…they are usually duped into believing he is so nice.
I saw my STBE yesterday at our son’s race and the race is about the kids running and the team. He hung real close, mind you he slapped me with divorce papers the week before I was laid off (he knew it too it was coming for two years, but I digress). All he could talk about was “I did this, and I did that…” Grrrr. then I spent the next day (today, just hiding out from people. I am in a bad way anyway right now but that had to be a trigger. I thought to myself when he was waxing poetically about his list of accomplishments at our son’s race, “why do you keep telling about you when it is our son’s race and his team’s race?” Still walking around as if he is so gracious. blech!
Keep on talking folks. I needed the affirmation that it wasn’t just me when I had people, tell me “at least he is bringing the kids to church” then he would sit there and not participate, and had a nasty look on his face with arms crossed and all the drama he could muster while he filed out of the pew to loiter along the wall, while he “graciously” let all the communicants stroll by as he waved them through…I got so tired of the phrase “at least he…” whatever it was. No one wanted to really take time to understand. Well I can’t say “no one” very few. The priests though, and some folks saw his insincerity. Although, they too I think were hoping he would wake up. But, I don’t think they do…often.
anyway, thank you for continuing the thread. It has been a long and painful journey. the latest I had to tell him to leave my friend alone. He was pulling him away from youth group planning, after the races, and after the show of graciousness with me, told him how we forced him outof his home, and we lie about his behavior. My daughter ended up in the ER with an anxiety attack due to the situation and it is us lying and forcing him out? Thankfully, the friend knows me well enough to defend me while I am not there. But he also tried to call my husband to task about his solution to not change but divorce us…I had to tell my husband to leave my friend alone. my friend would not tell him “no” he would try to be his friend and brother and help…eventhough, it is only manipulation he gets in return.
thanks for listening. Not too many will…they are usually duped into believing he is so nice.
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Thank you so much, what a kind thing to say. Knowing that I am not crazy and that there are (unfortunately) other people who have experienced the same makes all the difference. I really hope that people who read threads such as this one will benefit from it and find a way forward.
M
mommamaree
Guest
No, I have already expressed my difficulty understanding what is wrong with her.
The blue high-lighted segment of this statement completely contradicts the next couple of sentences. I’d say serial killers are the most crazy-making, upheaval-causing people out there. Also, sociopaths are not successful and popular. They are HUMAN PREDATORS. We should not congratulate them for how charming they are or how successfully they use other human beings.
I have already said that I am going back to my counselor to get help with this.
If your first statement here is true, then why is it important for me to be absolutely certain of her diagnosis before acting to protect myself?
I am not attempting to diagnose my mother at all. This whole thread is about what I should do. I need to figure out how to protect myself from a mother who has mistreated me for a lifetime.
continued below due to length
M
mommamaree
Guest
continued from above due to length
Mommamaree
I have set boundary after boundary after boundary. I have explained my boundaries every single time. My mother will look me in the face and IMMEDIATELY begin pushing back against my boundaries. I tell her not to talk to me about her sex life. So she proceeds to tell me intimate and hellish details about her sex life. I tell her to stop criticizing me. So she immediately begins to tear me down. I set the boundaries, and she IMMEDIATELY violates those boundaries. I am not left with many options but going no contact here.
I am sorry about this situation for you. It sounds horrible.
I do not want to cure my mother. I want to decide what I should do about me and my family. Plus, I needed feedback that these things are not normal/healthy and that I am right to be aghast at these behaviors.
Are you saying that this thread has no place here, or are you just suggesting that another place might be more helpful. See, I can’t figure out what your agenda is with this post. It certainly seems like you are trying to undermine the perspective of having no contact with abusive parents. I don’t care what my mother’s label is. Although some resources used the term sociopath as applied to the behavior my mother exhibits, sociopath is a common-use term, not a modern psychological one. Also, I and others have clarified here before that serial killers are psychopaths, the most violent manifestation of sociopaths. And about 5% of the population are estimated by psychologists to be SOCIOPATHIC and that most people are likely to have at least one of those people in their lives. If you want to help, great. Obviously you have family history that gives you perspective that would be helpful to many of us. But please do not quibble about the lingo. Fact is, our parents are cruel to us, they refuse to stop, and they DO NOT CARE how it affects us. Many of us also have children to protect.
Thank you, God bless you, too.
Mommamaree
M
mommamaree
Guest
Contra Mundum,Litcrit, Easter Joy and Cerne,
thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Cerne, I will check out the link about bullying. I normally try to find a way of explaining my story to my friends in a credible way. I admitted I went to councelling because he was the source of constant anxiety and panic attacks and I couldn’t cope. Even this is not enough to convince people. The fact that he started bullying my husband is not proof enough. The fact that he started using my children to manipulate me is not enough. Whenever they engage me in a conversation about this I always end up telling them about isolated incidents as examples. I choose juicy material in order to make my point, but it is true, they are just trivial examples of nastiness for my friends, not enough to justify my decision to cut him off. This refusal to believe me is so cruel, and I swear that made me suffer more than the actual separation from my NF.
Litcrit, you are so right about this having a lot to do with culture. You understand exactly what my context is and what the implications are. People say “I understand that you went through a lot of crazy stuff, but he is your father.” And my favourite: “He gave you a lot of money. That made thing possible for you. Surely he is not all bad.” End of story. It is not his nastiness that deserves condemnation but my desire to stand up for myself and to protect myself from further bullying. For several years I used to dream about moving back home with my family, but now I know that there is no way I could do that. This realisation breaks my heart but it is for the best.
Easter Joy, I think I will use that as a response. Verbatum
What a mess. I tried so hard for many years to have some kind of a relationship with my NF, one of the reasons being that I was aware people would condemn me for cutting contact. But he then crossed the line in such an insane way that I couldn’t put up with it anymore. Me walking away was not planned, it just happened after that last argument. As I was walking home I was thinking: “This is it. I’m done. I’m so done with this freak.” I still can’t believe this is happening, that this is the reality of my family life.
With sincere compassion, might I suggest that it is time to find some new friends? People who won’t be so nosy and insist upon their way in your life?
Sometimes people truly cannot imagine the pain and the struggle of having a cruel parent. Or they just assume that a person must accept the cruelty just by virtue of the fact that it is coming from the parent. Why is it acceptable for a person to leave a cruel spouse, but not acceptable to have no contact with a cruel parent? I don’t get the disconnect.
M
mommamaree
Guest
:console:
(((HUGS))) mamaslo. It is so hard when we are confronted with triggers that put us back in that painful place again. Praying that God will lift you up again in His love.
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I don’t understand their reasoning either. I guess some people think that the parent is above all. I will see what happens on this trip and if I’m roped into uncomfortable conversations yet again I will just tell the person to drop it or else.
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mamaslo
Guest
I have also heard the argument that we are supposed to stay with the cruel spouse. Some do not believe in emotional abuse as valid reason…but when we end up on anti-depression medicine to keep us from suicide…something is killing us. Just because it is not physical doesn’t mean it isn’t worthy abuse.
i wish we could have a support group on this.
i wish we could have a support group on this.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
You know, though, some people are fortunate enough that this situation isn’t even in their sphere of comprehension. They’ve only known families with small quarrels that get blown out of proportion and everyone wishes later that they hadn’t been so hysterical. Their normal is “reach out, put your hurt feelings aside, you’ll wish you had later.” Sometimes, after all, that is the best for everyone. That sometimes just doesn’t fit you.
How hard it would be to believe that a tsunami could happen, if you didn’t understand the physics of water! A wave from hundreds of miles away that is 20, 30, or 40* meters* high? It is too fantastic to comprehend. Being raised by a parent with the kinds of disorders being talked about here is like that. It is a tsunami, it is an explosive fireball, it is an atomic bomb, it is Mt. St. Helens. It is the unleashing of destructive force that is rooted in nature and yet so far beyond the typical experience as to defy comprehension.
People feel very unsafe trying to comprehend such a thing happening to an innocent person and in a family and to a person that looks OK from the outside, so they want to refuse to believe it really exists. It is not right, but it is human nature. If they are good friends otherwise, you can consider just keeping them off this topic. If they do not disbelieve you or invalidate you otherwise, if it is just this thing that is so far beyond them that they are too thick to get, that might work, if you decide for that. It’s asking a lot of someone who is already carrying a lot. I’d only advise you do what is best for you, whether that means keeping them around or seeing a lot less of them. You’re carrying enough. Anyone who doesn’t help, needs to leave. If they are good supports in other ways, though, maybe…well, some people are a little slow, but they make up for it in other ways. If Contra Mundum decides to keep these friends, she could have her reasons, that’s all I mean. I wouldn’t take her to task for knowing her mind about when someone has pushed her too far and when they haven’t. (It goes without saying that I’d never take her to task for agreeing with you, though!!)
Some have not been through emotional abuse, and out the other side. Once that happens–that is, once you get out of that nightmare–you’d no more trap someone in that than you’d trap them in a burning building where they’d “only” die of smoke inhalation, and not from being burned alive.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I agree with this. People who have not experienced this kind of thing have no way of understanding it. Most of my frieds are like that, lucky them. And then there are those who have experienced it but have chosen to stay in the relationship. One of these persistent friends of mine falls into this group. She has struggled with her mother her whole life (she is about 55 now) and the way she deals with her is that she calls her maybe once a month and when mom says something that is out of line she hangs up on her and doesn’t call her for a few months. This is her solution. She thinks I must fix things with my dad and has offered her solution as an option. I’ve explained that I tried that but it didn’t solve anything, because I was still stressed out of my mind and very angry. Yet she refuses to accept that my solution to* my* problem is *mine alone *and that I’m not forcing her or other people to follow my example. I suspect that on some level she is envious that I had the guts to cut him off because she obviously could never do that. (I’m not suggesting for a moment that I deserve some kind of a medal and still believe that it is better to stay in contact if possible. I was pushed too far too many time and just snapped. I guess my friend never snapped, which made it possible for her to find a way of dealing with the problem.)
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I don’t think that such people understand boundaries. Normal rules of behaviour don’t apply to them because they feel superior to other people. They own the world and everyone in it. If your mother is like my father, then you are just something that belongs to her. No identity of your own, but a mirror of herself. If you are not a person in your own right then you can’t establish a boundary. At least I never managed with my NF. When he realised that the distance between us started to increase (when I realised what I was dealing with) he became worse. He behaved like a frustrated child that couldn’t get what he wanted. From what you’ve shared here it sounds like your mother does the same thing. My grandmother (paternal) was the same, a truly nasty piece of work. You know when she stopped with her crazy behaviour? The day she died. As you can see, I am not exactly optimistic about the possibility of such people changing. And you are right about not being interested in curing your mother. You can’t. You can only take care of yourself and leave her to God’s mercy.
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