What's a clear, charitable "come-back" for protestants?

[FredSmith]

I would just say something like “technically, we worship the same God, but without following our traditions, you cannot be saved or please Him in any way.”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

I have read all of the posts and suggestions and as a born again christian who goes to a non-denom church the only effective response is the one CAT offered.

All of the other responses will be perceived as arrogant and condescending.

Thanks CAT

 

[Philthy]

"No Father, we belong to a non-denominational church… But in the end, we both worship the same God. Right?"

My hope and prayer is that we do! But Jews and Muslims claim to “worship the same God” as well, no? Certainly Who we worship is critically important - God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but so is how we worship. God deserves to be worshipped in the manner He passed on to his Apostles and their successors for the benefit of all the faithful, yes? My prayer is that you continue to follow Him and that you come to worship Him in the fullness of Spirit and Truth as the Church has done since the beginning. And in this way may we all be one as Jesus and the Father are one. God bless you and keep you!

 

[jmcrae]

I would just say something like “technically, we worship the same God, but without following our traditions, you cannot be saved or please Him in any way.”

This isn’t really true - Protestants can please God in many ways - they read the Bible (and if they are without serious sin from the time of their baptism, they could even receive a partial Indulgence for doing so); they pray as best they know how; and they do many works of charity.

In theory, a Protestant who had no way of knowing about the Catholic Church, and who did not commit any sin after his baptism, could go ahead of a great many Catholics into Heaven, without having to experience Purgatory. (Of course, how realistic is that? But it is technically possible.)

But they would certainly please God better, if they were in His Church and worshipping Him in fullness and in truth.

 

[FredSmith]

This isn’t really true - Protestants can please God in many ways - they read the Bible (and if they are without serious sin from the time of their baptism, they could even receive a partial Indulgence for doing so); they pray as best they know how; and they do many works of charity.

Right! I forgot about the partial indulgence. Just like it talks about in verse…um, which verse was that again?

In theory, a Protestant who had no way of knowing about the Catholic Church, and who did not commit any sin after his baptism, could go ahead of a great many Catholics into Heaven, without having to experience Purgatory. (Of course, how realistic is that? But it is technically possible.)

Since there is no such thing as Purgatory, I’d say it’s about as realistic as you can get.

No one can go without committing sin. That’s why we have to have the righteouness of Christ imputed to us.

But they would certainly please God better, if they were in His Church and worshipping Him in fullness and in truth.

I’m already in “His church” and am worshipping Him in fullness and in truth.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with the person who said to offer to give them a blessing. Priestly blessings were a very powerful element in my own conversion journey. I especially remember one African priest who really went out of his way, and prayed by name for every aspect of my life, even though I had never met him before.

It was like he could read my soul, and knew exactly what I needed from God. It was a very powerful experience, and I felt very loved, at that moment.

There were also the priest who made a regular practice of giving me a blessing - the consistency of every day, he would lay his hands on my forehead and bless me (especially if he did so after we had had a big huge fight over some point of doctrine) was very moving, to me; I was made to know that I was loved unconditionally, and that was a very precious experience for me, at the time.

 

[jmcrae]

Right! I forgot about the partial indulgence. Just like it talks about in verse…um, which verse was that again?

II Maccabees 12:45.

No one can go without committing sin. That’s why we have to have the righteouness of Christ imputed to us.

We don’t have Christ’s righteousness “imputed to” us. God is truth and light; there is no shadow of lies or darkness in Him. Above all, He does not lie to Himself, nor pretend any thing to be true that is not actually true.

Rather, we are made to be as clean and sinless as Christ, by the washing of Christ’s blood on our souls. Our sins don’t just get covered up; they actually get washed away, and the wounds of them are fully healed.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

You are a priest, right? You are Christ’s representative on this earth.

Here is my suggestion. Answer, “Yes we do,” since after all, theologically, they are correct. You will not be disavowing the Catholic Church to admit that Protestants are correct in some of their views.

Then offer to bless them.

If they hesitate, ask them if they’ve read Pastor Gary Smalley’s book, The Blessing. (You might want to get hold of this book and read it yourself first.)

Gary Smalley was my pastor in the church I grew up in and he is accepted by evangelical Protestants as a paragon of solid Biblical truth.

His book The Blessing is all about the importance of Christians blessing each other, as outlined in the Scriptures. Offering a blessing to someone is a very “Biblical” thing for Christians to do. It is not some wierd “Catholic” ritual.

So if they refuse the blessing, suggest that they read Pastor Smalley’s book, and then smile and say your goodbye. Please say a private prayer for them, though.

But hopefully your Protestant friend will say yes to your request to bless them.

So do your priestly work and give them a blessing.

They will be extremely touched, and believe me, they will never, ever forget it. Your touch and your words of blessing will stay in their hearts and minds forever.

Protestants have very few “tangibles” in their practice of Christianity to cling to, and when they do have contact with a “tangible”, it is very meaningful to them. I believe that many Protestants are absolutely starved for the “tangibles,” which not only include the seven sacraments (especially Eucharist), but also tangibles like human touch, blessings, the Sign of the Cross, Rosaries, Holy Water, candles, art work, etc.

I believe this is one reason why Protestants “church hop.” They are searching for substance, for something “real,” and they think they can find it by being more “spiritual.” They don’t realize that it is in the physical that God reveals Himself and works in us. They haven’t connected this with the Incarnation of Jesus and His physical coming and dwelling and dying among us. Instead, they have the incorrect idea that the “physical” is of this world and therefore, should be avoided. So they continue to starve and continue to wander about seeking a place “to be fed.”

I and my husband were starved for all these tangibles, and when we started attending the Catholic Church, we felt like we had stumbled into a castle full of rich treasures.

Our daughter, who is a professional stage manager, feels the same way. Long before she decided to become Catholic, she said that all the other churches are just “pageants,” while the Mass is the real thing.

I believe your powerful blessing, offered as Christ’s representative, will continue to work in their lives and eventually bring them home to the Catholic church.

God bless you as you witness in love to those outside of the Catholic Church!

Dear Cat,
Yours is not only a beautiful and charitable response but also a moving witness. Being a lifelong Catholic, I love the smells and bells of Church. The incense, the candles. Whenever I enter any Catholic church, that same smell makes me feel like I’ve come home.

Bless you for coming up with a nonconfrontational, charitable, and practical answer that is totally what priests do!

 

[teadough]

Perhaps something like:
“Yes, praise to Him - our God who is always working to draw us closer to Himself in truth.”

Nita

Thanks Nita

Speaking the Truth with Love is your only chance of having a clear conscience and allowing a Protestant to experience a sense of Love from the Church. As someone who is still in RCIA I can see why and how so many protestants feel the way they do towards a lot of Catholics.

 

[FredSmith]

II Maccabees 12:45.

I mean in the Bible.

We don’t have Christ’s righteousness “imputed to” us.

Then you need to be born again because if you don’t have Christ’s righteousness imputed to you, your righteousness ain’t going to do it.

Rather, we are made to be as clean and sinless as Christ, by the washing of Christ’s blood on our souls. Our sins don’t just get covered up; they actually get washed away, and the wounds of them are fully healed.

I see. So then, you no longer sin?

 

[CentralFLJames]

This isn’t really true - Protestants can please God in many ways - they read the Bible (and if they are without serious sin from the time of their baptism, they could even receive a partial Indulgence for doing so); they pray as best they know how; and they do many works of charity.

In theory, a Protestant who had no way of knowing about the Catholic Church, and who did not commit any sin after his baptism, could go ahead of a great many Catholics into Heaven, without having to experience Purgatory. (Of course, how realistic is that? But it is technically possible.)

But they would certainly please God better, if they were in His Church and worshipping Him in fullness and in truth.

True “in concept” jmcrae. But the truth is that without receiving the Eucharist and routinely confessing and praying even for our venial sins most of us would fall into mortal sin. Most people just don’t get it that Jesus was not kidding when He said that unless one eats the Bread of Life they do not have life in them. So many people (including Catholics who do not routinely go to confession) are absolutely clueless that they are very likely living in mortal sin. All it takes is a lustful thought, falling into despair about a life condition and not trusting in God, or masturbation, or so many other of the 7 deadly sins.

God sets high standards for His Children - but he also gives us incredibly powerful graces and sacraments to help us when we fall or make very predictable human mistakes. He made us and he knows our weaknesses. But it is up to us to draw on those and use them - routinely. Jesus was not kidding when He told us how to pray to God with The Our Father; “And give us this day our daily bread”. That sets the standard - we need to pray daily and even more. Mass and a celebration of the Eucharist is available in most parishes daily too. Praying in front of the blessed sacrament gives extra special graces as well.

I pray for Protestants since I see so many very fine “morally” inclined people that just are not getting the message that there are enormous spiritual gifts in the Catholic Church that are waiting for them here. Offering prayer to God in private or at an assembly is nice - but its not true worship. We Catholics offer not only prayers, and personal sacrifices but we also offer obedience to Jesus’ full teaching and most importantly we offer up the one perfect and acceptable sacrifice to God in daily masses from east to west. That sacrifice is Jesus’ suffering, His body, His blood, His soul and His Divinity to God. This is perfectly pleasing to God.

James

 

[jmcrae]

I mean in the Bible.

It’s in the Bible that Jesus used. That’s good enough for me.

Then you need to be born again because if you don’t have Christ’s righteousness imputed to you, your righteousness ain’t going to do it.

I become righteous when God makes me so, by the blood of Christ on the Cross, which pours out over me through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (in much the same way that water from the river pours into my kitchen sink through the taps).

Not under my own power.

I see. So then, you no longer sin?

That is my goal. If within this lifetime I have not broken the habits of sin, then I will go to Purgatory and God will faithfully complete the work that He began. Then, I will be able to enter into Heaven, where there is no sin whatsoever. (Not even under any snowcovered dunghills).

 

[FredSmith]

It’s in the Bible that Jesus used. That’s good enough for me.

Really? Which Bible is that?

I become righteous when God makes me so, by the blood of Christ on the Cross, which pours out over me through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (in much the same way that water from the river pours into my kitchen sink through the taps).

And then you sin again and become unrighteous.

That is my goal. If within this lifetime I have not broken the habits of sin, then I will go to Purgatory and God will faithfully complete the work that He began.

No Purgatory. Straight to Hell.

 

[jmcrae]

James;

Everything that you have said is true.

Nevertheless, it is not true that Protestants “cannot” please God “in any way.” They have certain opportunities. Whether they take advantage of them is a whole other story. But they could.

But yes, I certainly agree with you and believe that it is best to be a Catholic who makes frequent use of as many of the Sacraments as possible, and who has a full and rich life of prayer and service. There is no doubt that this is the best scenario of them all.

 

[jmcrae]

Really? Which Bible is that?

The same one that has a Book of Isaiah that says, “A virgin will conceive and bear a son …” - this is found only in the version that contains the Books of the Maccabees and the other “deuterocanonicals.”

The one that has only 39 of the books says “A young woman shall conceive and bear a son …”

And then you sin again and become unrighteous.

And if I don’t repent and go back to the Sacraments; that is, back to Jesus, then I remain unrighteous, and as you say, I would go straight to Hell.

If I were to say, “I don’t have to do anything. Jesus did it all.” No. Jesus opened the door. I still have to walk through the door, and walk in the Way of Christ. If I don’t walk in the Way, then I will most certainly go to Hell.

Purgatory is not a second chance for the forgiveness of sins. It is only for those who are already without sin, but need to be healed of the habit of sin, or the tendency/desire to want to commit sin. Jesus commands us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect. He was not kidding around.

 

[FredSmith]

And if I don’t repent and go back to the Sacraments; that is, back to Jesus, then I remain unrighteous, and as you say, I would go straight to Hell.

Sacraments can’t save you.

If I were to say, “I don’t have to do anything. Jesus did it all.” No. Jesus opened the door. I still have to walk through the door, and walk in the Way of Christ. If I don’t walk in the Way, then I will most certainly go to Hell.

If you believe that you do anything to earn your salvation, then you are, in effect, denying Christ’s finished work and will go to Hell.

Purgatory is not a second chance for the forgiveness of sins. It is only for those who are already without sin, but need to be healed of the habit of sin, or the tendency/desire to want to commit sin. Jesus commands us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect. He was not kidding around.

The Bible says that no one is without sin and that when we die, we either go to Heaven or to Hell, depending on whether or not we died in Christ or died in our sins.

There is no Purgatory.

 

[jmcrae]

Sacraments can’t save you.

Not by themselves, of course. No more than taps can carry water, if they are not connected at both ends; one end to the river, and the other end to the sink.

It would be a mistake to trust in the Sacraments apart from Christ.

We would then be like the poor desert dwellers in the old story - they came for the very first time into a city, and stayed in a hotel. They were amazed to turn on the taps and see water coming out of them. But, not understanding the nature of a tap, they decided to steal the plumbing out from the hotel. They were, of course, mightly disappointed when they got it back into the desert, and no water came out of it. They didn’t realize that it had to be connected to a river or lake, or some other source of water. By itself, it could do nothing. But, when connected up to a source of water, it is literally life-giving - people with access to running water in their homes live twice or even three times as long as people who do not.

The Sacraments connect the blood of Christ, shed on the hill of Golgotha on March 25th 33 AD, to the souls of all people at all times. They are just the “taps” but without the Sacraments, it is much more difficult to gain access to Christ’s grace poured out on the Cross.

If you believe that you do anything to earn your salvation, then you are, in effect, denying Christ’s finished work and will go to Hell.

We don’t “earn” our salvation. There is no “work” involved in participating in the Sacraments, or in saying our prayers, etc. It is all from Jesus.

The Bible says that no one is without sin and that when we die, we either go to Heaven or to Hell, depending on whether or not we died in Christ or died in our sins.

That’s very true.

Christ acts through the Sacraments of the Church. It is Christ who gave them to us, and commanded us to use them. They are not “works of man;” they are gifts from God.

 

[FredSmith]

Not by themselves, of course. No more than taps can carry water, if they are not connected at both ends; one end to the river, and the other end to the sink.

It would be a mistake to trust in the Sacraments apart from Christ.

It is blasphemy to trust in them at all.

We don’t “earn” our salvation. There is no “work” involved in participating in the Sacraments, or in saying our prayers, etc. It is all from Jesus.

The Bible defines a “work” as a religious ritual used to gain favor with God. By that definition, your sacraments are works and are utterly useless in the pursuit of salvation.

 

[jmcrae]

The Bible defines a “work” as a religious ritual used to gain favor with God.

It does? Where? Jesus’ last commandment to the Apostles was “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Those sound like “religious rituals,” to me.

By that definition, your sacraments are works and are utterly useless in the pursuit of salvation.

Well, it would. But the thing is, I don’t know of any ban on religious rituals in the Bible. Even St. Paul preached and baptized people.

 

[FredSmith]

It does? Where? Jesus’ last commandment to the Apostles was “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Those sound like “religious rituals,” to me.

No, preaching the Gospel is not a religious work.