What's a good reason to avoid having kids?

[JackieMom]

In my opinon this is where the Church has left us high and dry. EVERY other grave circumstance and sin we are given criteria. For instance it is always wrong to murder or steal. It is wrong no matter what. The Church has no economic criteria for sin. Murder in uganda for a loaf of bread to feed your family is just as damnable as murder in New York for a millioinaire’s estate. Morality is timeless and governmentless. What constituted sexual sin in 1850 constitutes sin now.
In all cases except this. NFP is a rather new method and the modern western idea of “poverty” is also a modern standard we apply.
So, it strikes me as odd that one family may decide that a vacation to hawaii is reason to avoid while another may be living in objective poverty and morally decide to have children.
I can think of no other sin this applies to. And It has always confused me.

That’s because NFP is not a sin like murder is. The Church has not left us “high and dry.” She gives couples permission to use NFP if they think it’s prudent.

 

[russet1]

That’s because NFP is not a sin like murder is. The Church has not left us “high and dry.” She gives couples permission to use NFP if they think it’s prudent.

Right and that I understand. But married couples are called to be open to life. Married couples can abuse NFP and there are different standards for different people. That is not consitent with any other moral decision.
It is wierd. And it is something that Idon’t understand. I trust the Church in this matter but I feel as if in this day and age of materialism and with europe and the US being so anti child compared to times past you would think the Church would guide the flock with this matter.
Also it does not explain the timeless principle of morality. That we now have NFP and a church approved way to control births it does not apply to those who in this day and age do not have the education of NFP or in past times did not have the methods of NFP.
It does not make logical sense to me but we don’t try to avoid anyway so the question I have is not one of my own marriage but rather just on general moral guidlines for any moral circumstance. It just does not seem to jive.

 

[JackieMom]

Right and that I understand. But married couples are called to be open to life. Married couples can abuse NFP and there are different standards for different people. That is not consitent with any other moral decision.
It is wierd. And it is something that Idon’t understand. I trust the Church in this matter but I feel as if in this day and age of materialism and with europe and the US being so anti child compared to times past you would think the Church would guide the flock with this matter.
Also it does not explain the timeless principle of morality. That we now have NFP and a church approved way to control births it does not apply to those who in this day and age do not have the education of NFP or in past times did not have the methods of NFP.
It does not make logical sense to me but we don’t try to avoid anyway so the question I have is not one of my own marriage but rather just on general moral guidlines for any moral circumstance. It just does not seem to jive.

What are the other options - to tell couples they MUST have intercourse when the woman is fertile? To say a woman must not get to know her body so as never to make a conscious choice to not have sex when she could get pregnant?

The Church has validated the goodness of having a family, but has never taught that we all need to max out on kids or that there is only some dire criteria that a couple must meet for NFP to be okay. NFP is always okay, because it is open to life and does not separate the marital act from the procreative one.

How could the Church come up with definitive criteria anyway? I have hyperemesis when pregnant. It has not been life-threatening for me and I can control it somewhat with medication. Still, it is miserable and depressing, and makes it so that I cannot fully care for my other kids. Some may say it’s a great reason to avoid, others may disagree because it is temporary and manageable.

 

[underacloud]

In my opinon this is where the Church has left us high and dry. EVERY other grave circumstance and sin we are given criteria. For instance it is always wrong to murder or steal. It is wrong no matter what. The Church has no economic criteria for sin. Murder in uganda for a loaf of bread to feed your family is just as damnable as murder in New York for a millioinaire’s estate. Morality is timeless and governmentless. What constituted sexual sin in 1850 constitutes sin now.
In all cases except this. NFP is a rather new method and the modern western idea of “poverty” is also a modern standard we apply.
So, it strikes me as odd that one family may decide that a vacation to hawaii is reason to avoid while another may be living in objective poverty and morally decide to have children.
I can think of no other sin this applies to. And It has always confused me.

The parallel that I see is with financial support of the Church (and related charities). The Church teaches that we are obliged to support, but not how much. Each person and family makes sensible and generous decisions appropriate to their circumstances. The Church does not expect us to give beyond our means, but doesn’t really provide clear specific criteria. Likewise, couples are called to be sensible and generous in having children, but not beyond reasonable means.

So it is sinful for a wealthy Catholic to fail to suppport the Church finacially, while it is sinful for a couple to use NFP without serious reasons.

 

[nodito]

"MomtoEandM:

Cruise lines will not let you sail once you are past 24 weeks pregnant. They will turn you away if you try to board when visibly pregnant, unless you have a doctor’s note stating you are less than 24 weeks… We had saved for two years to go on that cruise, and my older daughter had been counting down the days. If we had to cancel, we would have lost a substantial amount of money, and our whole family would have been very disappointed. For some, that is not a serious reason to avoid, but for us, it would have been.

Point taken. I probably should not have mentioned a cruise specifically. In my mind, I was envisioning someone who wanted to postpone pregnancy so they’d look good in a bathing suit. (Though I’m sure someone will take exception to this reason as well).

The Church has validated the goodness of having a family, but has never taught that we all need to max out on kids or that there is only some dire criteria that a couple must meet for NFP to be okay.

This is true.

NFP is always okay, because it is open to life and does not separate the marital act from the procreative one.

This is not true. In general, the act of practicing natural family planning (or abstaining from intercourse for certain periods) is morally neutral. And the marital act is never inherently disordered the way contraceptive sex is sinful because, as you say, it maintains the integrity of its unitive and procreative poroperties. But if it were truly impossible to abuse NFP, then Pope Paul VI would not have qualified use of NFP by saying one’s reasons must be “serious.” Not dire, not extreme, but serious. And this suggests that there are reasons that are not serious that would make NFP use selfish or illicit (and, hence, sinful).

I understand the hesitation to name these particular “unserious” motives, because, as I’ve discovered on this thread, any potentially trivial reason can be serious to some under certain circumstances. And we need to avoid judging individual couples and the reasons they’ve discerned for practicing responsible parenthood. But that doesn’t translate into a blanket statement like, “couples can always morally use NFP if they want to postpone children for whatever reason.”

 

[Phil_Marinus]

From what I know, Church teaching is that a couple has to have a good reason to actively avoid having children, but what qualifies as a “good reason”? Is being in school an acceptable reason, or if both would-be parents work nights, or what?

A Good enough reason would be that you choose not to have children.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

If you get married with the permanent resolution to never have children, you are not validly married. A valid marriage must be open to the possibility of life (and, yes, infertile couples can contract valid marriages because their inability to produce offspring isn’t their fault).

 

[SBryndy729]

Here is my issue: I dread having a large family, like DREAD it. I have a 12 month old whom I of course love, but I can’t enjoy him because I keep thinking “I have to have 8 more of these?!” I struggle with anxiety, and I have been consumed by this since getting married. I haven’t even been married two years and I am already 4 months pregnant with our second. At this rate, I’ll have 7 kids at least by the time I’m 40 and the thought depresses me to no end.

I never wanted a large family, I didn’t even really want kids but of course “I fell and love” and thought I could do anything for my husband I love so much. I wasn’t even familiar with the no contraception mentality until I met my husband…I guess I didn’t really ponder it enough because now that I’m living it, I’m almost questioning if I got my vocation wrong.

Unfortunately, my husband is a pretty awesome Catholic and I am trying…I really am. I pray about this issue almost everyday and ask God to please help me to love motherhood, but nothing yet. Again, I love my son but I spend my days looking forward to alone time and times when people don’t need me…and I only have one kid so far!

So what then? Am I just selfish or is it possible not every woman has this innate desire to be a mother? My husband asked me not too long ago if there is any part of me that wants a big family and I answered no; more confidently than I have ever answered anything in my life. I am fairly obedient and understand the vow I took when I got married, so I will do my best to be as open to life as possible…but if I’m miserable along the way, is that really what’s best for my family?

 

[JackieMom]

Point taken. I probably should not have mentioned a cruise specifically. In my mind, I was envisioning someone who wanted to postpone pregnancy so they’d look good in a bathing suit. (Though I’m sure someone will take exception to this reason as well).

This is true.

This is not true. In general, the act of practicing natural family planning (or abstaining from intercourse for certain periods) is morally neutral. And the marital act is never inherently disordered the way contraceptive sex is sinful because, as you say, it maintains the integrity of its unitive and procreative poroperties. But if it were truly impossible to abuse NFP, then Pope Paul VI would not have qualified use of NFP by saying one’s reasons must be “serious.” Not dire, not extreme, but serious. And this suggests that there are reasons that are not serious that would make NFP use selfish or illicit (and, hence, sinful).

I understand the hesitation to name these particular “unserious” motives, because, as I’ve discovered on this thread, any potentially trivial reason can be serious to some under certain circumstances. And we need to avoid judging individual couples and the reasons they’ve discerned for practicing responsible parenthood. But that doesn’t translate into a blanket statement like, “couples can always morally use NFP if they want to postpone children for whatever reason.”

The Catechism teaches that sex between married persons needs to be procreative and unitive. That’s it. “Selfish” and “frivolous” people use contraception. I tend to agree with the studies that show upwards of 95% of self-identified Catholics use contraception. Only a tiny minority are faithful to The Church and in this day and age, it takes a HUGE leap of faith to entrust family planning only to God’s approved mechanisms.

If a couple discerns that it is not the right time for another baby, and uses NFP to avoid (with the understanding that if a baby comes anyway, it will be warmly accepted), I simply do not think it is possible to label that choice as selfish or wrong. They are putting in the work, making the sacrifice and following God’s laws. If it were just about “Oh, I don’t want to give up soft-serve ice cream for nine months” - that is not someone who is going to put in the time, sacrifice and energy to use NFP.

 

[allhers]

This site will be helpful:

It has lots of links to help out too. (with why you can, when you can and how you can use natural family planning, etc…)

all.org/article/index/id/OTAyNw/

 

[nodito]

If a couple discerns that it is not the right time for another baby, and uses NFP to avoid (with the understanding that if a baby comes anyway, it will be warmly accepted), I simply do not think it is possible to label that choice as selfish or wrong. They are putting in the work, making the sacrifice and following God’s laws. If it were just about “Oh, I don’t want to give up soft-serve ice cream for nine months” - that is not someone who is going to put in the time, sacrifice and energy to use NFP.

I agree with you here, and I think our opinions on this are more closely aligned on this than they appear to be. I absolutely want to avoid labeling any particular couple’s motivation to use NFP as selfish or wrong. I think you’re starting with the typical NFP couple and saying, “Look, they’re following Church teaching. NFP requires self-sacrifice and discipline. We really shouldn’t and can’t judge them.” I agree with that. I’m starting from the perspective of a couple that has not yet discerned whether they can licitly use NFP. In other words, they want to be faithful to the Church teaching. They have already decided not to commit the sin of contraception. They want to make sure that they’re living their vocation to holiness. But perhaps they don’t really yearn for a child right now. Maybe they’re ambivalent. Maybe there’s a bit of a disagreement. Or maybe they aren’t even married yet. But they’re trying to decide whether they have serious reasons to postpone pregnancy or not. And I think it is inaccurate to tell this couple that they can use NFP for any reason at all. I think we need to tell them that their reasons must be “serious,” because that is the language that the Church uses.

So then the couple asks, “well, what is serious?” I’ve always maintained that the couple has to discern this for themselves. But I do believe that some reasons are not serious. And I think forums like this one can be helpful. It can be helpful to hear other couples flesh out what they consider to be serious and frivolous reasons. I think it helps form our consciences.

I found myself in this position prior to getting married. I had been terrified that I’d get pregnant on my honeymoon. This was for several reaons, but the two dominant ones were that I didn’t want to gain a lot of weight and lose my figure so soon after getting to have sex for the first time, and I was writing a thesis at the time on natural family planning and I worried that people would laugh at me if I got pregnant. Like, “ha ha, there’s goes the pregnant NFP girl.” I discerned that my reasons for wanting to use NFP in my situation were not serious, and so we didn’t. I would never have used contraception regardless. But I did find it useful to discuss with others what the Church meant when she said couples must have serious reasons for spacing or postponing children.

God bless.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Here is my issue: I dread having a large family, like DREAD it. I have a 12 month old whom I of course love, but I can’t enjoy him because I keep thinking “I have to have 8 more of these?!” I struggle with anxiety, and I have been consumed by this since getting married. I haven’t even been married two years and I am already 4 months pregnant with our second. At this rate, I’ll have 7 kids at least by the time I’m 40 and the thought depresses me to no end.

I never wanted a large family, I didn’t even really want kids but of course “I fell and love” and thought I could do anything for my husband I love so much. I wasn’t even familiar with the no contraception mentality until I met my husband…I guess I didn’t really ponder it enough because now that I’m living it, I’m almost questioning if I got my vocation wrong.

Unfortunately, my husband is a pretty awesome Catholic and I am trying…I really am. I pray about this issue almost everyday and ask God to please help me to love motherhood, but nothing yet. Again, I love my son but I spend my days looking forward to alone time and times when people don’t need me…and I only have one kid so far!

So what then? Am I just selfish or is it possible not every woman has this innate desire to be a mother? My husband asked me not too long ago if there is any part of me that wants a big family and I answered no; more confidently than I have ever answered anything in my life. I am fairly obedient and understand the vow I took when I got married, so I will do my best to be as open to life as possible…but if I’m miserable along the way, is that really what’s best for my family?

Maybe i had not read every post… but why do you say you want to have a total of 9 children ?

 

[SBryndy729]

Maybe i had not read every post… but why do you say you want to have a total of 9 children ?

I never said that…I wa just using 9 as a number because that’s a really large number.

 

[VivienneJ]

Somehow there seems to be a perception that being open to life means having a large number of children. If a couple prayerfully discerns the prudent spacing of their children and leaves the rest to God it may well be that some end up with a large number of children, others, just as open to life may end up with a much smaller family, perhaps even with just one child.

 

[thewanderer]

Here is my issue: I dread having a large family, like DREAD it. I have a 12 month old whom I of course love, but I can’t enjoy him because I keep thinking “I have to have 8 more of these?!” I struggle with anxiety, and I have been consumed by this since getting married. I haven’t even been married two years and I am already 4 months pregnant with our second. At this rate, I’ll have 7 kids at least by the time I’m 40 and the thought depresses me to no end.

I never wanted a large family, I didn’t even really want kids but of course “I fell and love” and thought I could do anything for my husband I love so much. I wasn’t even familiar with the no contraception mentality until I met my husband…I guess I didn’t really ponder it enough because now that I’m living it, I’m almost questioning if I got my vocation wrong.

Unfortunately, my husband is a pretty awesome Catholic and I am trying…I really am. I pray about this issue almost everyday and ask God to please help me to love motherhood, but nothing yet. Again, I love my son but I spend my days looking forward to alone time and times when people don’t need me…and I only have one kid so far!

So what then? Am I just selfish or is it possible not every woman has this innate desire to be a mother? My husband asked me not too long ago if there is any part of me that wants a big family and I answered no; more confidently than I have ever answered anything in my life. I am fairly obedient and understand the vow I took when I got married, so I will do my best to be as open to life as possible…but if I’m miserable along the way, is that really what’s best for my family?

If having lots of children is stressing you out and putting stress on your marriage or affecting your parenting that can be a very legitimate reason for postponing children for a while. Catholic women do not have to get pregnant as often as they can financially afford it. They need to take their own emotional and mental health into account as well, for the good of the family. So right now, don’t worry about having lots of kids. Take it one day at a time. Right now you have two children and your job is to take care of them and nurture your relationship with your husband. Focus on that. From there you can start thinking about having one more child. Are you currently able to handle one more? If not, thats ok, talk to your husband about it and abstain as needed. Continue like this, one day at a time, and maybe one day you will find that you can handle another child, at which point have at it and repeat the whole process again. If you end up with a large family of 8-9 kids you won’t get there suddenly, it will be a slow process where each day you determine what you can handle and work with that. Congratulations on your pregnancy, by the way.

 

[thewanderer]

sorry, I just realized this is an old thread.

 

[Country_Gal]

From what I know, Church teaching is that a couple has to have a good reason to actively avoid having children, but what qualifies as a “good reason”? Is being in school an acceptable reason, or if both would-be parents work nights, or what?

Because they will drain the last ounce of life from your body and soul?

Sincerely, mother of six.

 

[moon1234]

Oh and I met someone recently who had a baby at 45…

You seem shocked? As if 45 is somehow beyond possible to raise a child? I know at least three women who all had children naturally over the age of 50. My mother-in-law is over 50 and has monthly cycles like clockwork, according to my wife (who want to know when she hit menopause).