What's a "man's" work duty?

[EasterJoy]

Yes.

Polluted, you keep doing what you’ve been doing, you’re going to keep getting what you’ve been getting. As a guy says, “How’s that working for you?”

That’s not being mean or judgy, that’s just reality.

And yeah, it is possible to have sexual self-control outside and inside of marriage. It’s not that hard to find people on CAF who never had sex before marriage and have never used birth control during marriage. I’ve been married 18 years and with the exception of a few weeks where I had to be on birth control pills to control some gynecological symptoms after a miscarriage, I’ve never used birth control. I’ve been pregnant four times and have 3.0 kids.

There’s no possibility of long-term happiness without self-control.

Chastity is not something reserved for the unmarried. Self-control in sexual matters is as essential as self-control in every other aspect of life.

I have been told often that those who find sexual continence difficult are well-advised to practice fasting and abstinence, the abstinence chosen from those things they are most likely to run to when they are stressed. Sexual self-mastery is not achieved in isolation from other kinds of self-mastery. It is something you develop, just like physical endurance, power, and balance. You get it by training for it, not by expecting yourself to have it and then beating yourself up when you did not get it by seeing how valuable it is and wishing for it.

 

[Polluted]

Some of you have actually posted positive insight and a glimpse of understanding of where I sit and my world view and advice that works with such an outlook…not just secular regurgitation with a Catholic paint job. Thank you.

 

[Xantippe]

Some of you have actually posted positive insight and a glimpse of understanding of where I sit and my world view and advice that works with such an outlook…not just secular regurgitation with a Catholic paint job. Thank you.

I think you make too big a distinction between “secular” and “Catholic.”

We’re all living in the same world, with the same basic realities. A lot of what you deem “secular” values are just basic traditional human values. In countless traditional cultures, weddings are a big whooptydo–just as are baptisms, confirmations, quinceaneras, funerals, etc. It is a very natural human impulse (not just secular materialist wickedness) to celebrate those milestones in a substantial, memorable way. And I think I can say–without fear of contradiction–that that is particularly the case in Hispanic culture. While things can get out of hand, there is a very positive human instinct in play.

Even in the Bible, the celebration of the wedding at Cana got Our Lord’s help in making sure there was enough wine. And if heaven is supposed to be the wedding feast of the lamb, perhaps it would be a good idea to make an effort beyond coffee and cake at our earthly weddings if we possibly can?

Beyond that, it’s not hard to find exhortations in the Bible to work (“If any one will not work, let him not eat”), support our families (“If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”), to avoid debt (“the borrower is slave to the lender”), to plan for the future (“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?”), cause and effect (“whatever a man sows, that he will also reap”). and many other seemingly “worldly” pieces of advice.

Again, we’re all living in the same world, dealing with the same realities, and being “spiritual” does not mean entirely abandoning common sense and the concept of cause and effect.

 

[Polluted]

I think you make too big a distinction between “secular” and “Catholic.”

We’re all living in the same world, with the same basic realities. A lot of what you deem “secular” values are just basic traditional human values. In countless traditional cultures, weddings are a big whooptydo–just as are baptisms, confirmations, quinceaneras, funerals, etc. It is a very natural human impulse (not just secular materialist wickedness) to celebrate those milestones in a substantial, memorable way. And I think I can say–without fear of contradiction–that that is particularly the case in Hispanic culture. While things can get out of hand, there is a very positive human instinct in play.

Even in the Bible, the celebration of the wedding at Cana got Our Lord’s help in making sure there was enough wine. And if heaven is supposed to be the wedding feast of the lamb, perhaps it would be a good idea to make an effort beyond coffee and cake at our earthly weddings if we possibly can?

Beyond that, it’s not hard to find exhortations in the Bible to work (“If any one will not work, let him not eat”), support our families (“If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”), to avoid debt (“the borrower is slave to the lender”), to plan for the future (“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?”), cause and effect (“whatever a man sows, that he will also reap”). and many other seemingly “worldly” pieces of advice.

Again, we’re all living in the same world, dealing with the same realities, and being “spiritual” does not mean entirely abandoning common sense and the concept of cause and effect.

Ya sadly I’m not gonna play Bible Pokemon with ya. I could cherry pick bible quotes to back ideas even more radical than my own but I’ll spare ya the fun. Take it however ya want my friend but I provide and give all that I have. I’m not gonna work myself into a stroke or sell out my own sanity for anyone least I actually do lose my marbles and do require psychological intervention.

At this present moment and for the last few years I couldn’t barely buy myself some coffee and cake. How on earth are you going to support any size wedding/celebration when I should be using every cent to rationally support us in between our “soon to be” welfare checks?

 

[pianistclare]

You wanna know what I think? I THINK you guys are angry. Really it’s not me you are scolding but yourselves. Trying to bash down that young man inside you who choose misery and unhappiness. Maybe ya did it because others told you to do it…Maybe take just didn’t have the courage to make a change. But regardless now you find yourselves in an unhappy job and/or marriage, practicing and supporting the things your own faith condemns but you do it in the name of “well I have a family to support and need to keep my suburban life”.

You might own a home, but truth be told you have not felt at “home” in a long while. Cowardice is a Sin folks…remember that. Now someone point me to the nearest welfare office

Oh please. I’d expect that from a 10 year old. But from a guy who has kids?
Stop pretending you know what everyone else’s life is like, because you can’t possibly know, and it has zero to do with YOUR situation.

Someone asked what you want from this thread?
A please to rant and rave?
If that’s all you want, and you want to say that everyone else in the world is crazy except YOU, than none of us would have posted or offered advice in the first place. You’ve gotten GREAT advice from many different people.
But no…you have a lock on all the answers.

Definitely out this time.

 

[Xantippe]

Ya sadly I’m not gonna play Bible Pokemon with ya.** I could cherry pick bible quotes to back ideas even more radical than my own but I’ll spare ya the fun. **Take it however ya want my friend but I provide and give all that I have. I’m not gonna work myself into a stroke or sell out my own sanity for anyone least I actually do lose my marbles and do require psychological intervention.

At this present moment and for the last few years I couldn’t barely buy myself some coffee and cake. How on earth are you going to support any size wedding/celebration when I should be using every cent to rationally support us in between our “soon to be” welfare checks?

Which is why we aren’t supposed to be homebrewing our own Catholicism–as a number of people have suggested, talk to a good priest about your concerns.

I have to add that there’s this big see-saw in your posts.

On the one hand, you have all you need, so you don’t need to work or earn more than the minimum and it’s OK for you to quit a job without lining up another one and you can get married right away and you have no concerns about family planning.

On the other hand, you’re broke, have no car, can’t afford to rent your own place, and you can’t buy yourself a cake or coffee.

Either point of view is defensible, but you keep swerving between those two positions. Pick a lane.

 

[AdamP88]

You wanna know what I think? I THINK you guys are angry. Really it’s not me you are scolding but yourselves. Trying to bash down that young man inside you who choose misery and unhappiness. Maybe ya did it because others told you to do it…Maybe take just didn’t have the courage to make a change. But regardless now you find yourselves in an unhappy job and/or marriage, practicing and supporting the things your own faith condemns but you do it in the name of “well I have a family to support and need to keep my suburban life”.

You might own a home, but truth be told you have not felt at “home” in a long while. Cowardice is a Sin folks…remember that. Now someone point me to the nearest welfare office

It’s also a sin to mooch off welfare when you could work. It sounds to me like you don’t care what people say. You have your “inner young man” to nurture. It may sound odd to you but most mature adults actually prefer a mature adult life to living like the eternal teenager.
What you’re suggesting is not courage. It’s immaturity.

 

[Polluted]

It’s also a sin to mooch off welfare when you could work. It sounds to me like you don’t care what people say. You have your “inner young man” to nurture. It may sound odd to you but most mature adults actually prefer a mature adult life to living like the eternal teenager.
What you’re suggesting is not courage. It’s immaturity.

Where did I ever say my plan is to mooch off welfare and not work? Now you folks are just painting me as you want to see me. Where did I say I want to live like a teenager and milk uncle same?

 

[AdamP88]

Where did I ever say my plan is to mooch off welfare and not work? Now you folks are just painting me as you want to see me. Where did I say I want to live like a teenager and milk uncle same?

Read your previous posts. You must be messing?!!

 

[Polluted]

Read your previous posts. You must be messing?!!

YOU or that other guy were the ones who said I’m doomed to a lifetime of welfare in all its forms if I follow Church teaching on birthcontrol.

The only thing I ever said is I don’t want a job that requires an unrealistic work week with ZERO days off. I’m sorry folks but thats NOT that much to ask. Heck I’ll put in overtime even. Just not 70+ hours of overtime and not a single day off. If it means my sons eat “Frosted Flats” for breakfast instead of the name brand stuff so be it!

 

[Xantippe]

Where did I ever say my plan is to mooch off welfare and not work? Now you folks are just painting me as you want to see me. Where did I say I want to live like a teenager and milk uncle same?

I think one of the things that’s going on here is that pretty much everybody responding to you has a better idea of what a husband’s and a father’s responsibilities look like than you do. (And a wife’s and a mother’s, too, but we’re not talking about that.)

I’m not being mean here–I’m just pointing out that (as you yourself have said) you haven’t had great role models from either of your parents, so you really don’t know what a decent family looks like or how it works.

I think you could really benefit from finding a mentor in real life, maybe at a Catholic men’s group. Don’t be trying to figure this out all on your own.

 

[Xantippe]

YOU or that other guy were the ones who said I’m doomed to a lifetime of welfare in all its forms** if I follow Church teaching on birthcontrol.**

The only thing I ever said is I don’t want a job that requires an unrealistic work week with ZERO days off. I’m sorry folks but thats NOT that much to ask. Heck I’ll put in overtime even. Just not 70+ hours of overtime and not a single day off. If it means my sons eat “Frosted Flats” for breakfast instead of the name brand stuff so be it!

…and don’t either work harder or practice self-control or work harder AND practice self-control.

Where do you think your family would be headed with a large family if you can’t keep one kid in name brand breakfast cereal right now?

 

[Polluted]

…and don’t either work harder or practice self-control or work harder AND practice self-control.

Where do you think your family would be headed with a large family if you can’t keep one kid in name brand breakfast cereal right now?

…a bigger welfare check , priority section 8 housing, and more food stamps

 

[DarkLight]

Buddy, I’ve been on welfare, it ain’t the easy life people think it is.

 

[Irishmom2]

…a bigger welfare check , priority section 8 housing, and more food stamps

Oh, glad to see you have a plan…

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

…a bigger welfare check , priority section 8 housing, and more food stamps

Grow up and get a freaking job: you’re college educated, you can do it. My dad and I haven’t always been on the best terms, but he made sure that his five children never had to wonder where their next meal was coming from. That’s a terrible father who will quit his job without a backup in place to make sure his children have some semblance of stability.

You made mistakes, and now you need to own them. Stop blaming your fiancé and Katy Perry for your problems, and accept some responsibility.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Have you started jobhunting? I don’t judge you for leaving a job without another job as I’ve done it twice myself (admittedly under different circumstances and discussing it with people) and not wanting a 70 hour week but it sounds like there is no reason for you not to be in full time work.

You are lucky to be able to live with these people but your luck could run out so you really need a job and a plan to get your own place. It’s not many women’s dream to be with a guy and still live with her parents.

 

[Polluted]

Have you started jobhunting? I don’t judge you for leaving a job without another job as I’ve done it twice myself (admittedly under different circumstances and discussing it with people) and not wanting a 70 hour week but it sounds like there is no reason for you not to be in full time work.

You are lucky to be able to live with these people but your luck could run out so you really need a job and a plan to get your own place. It’s not many women’s dream to be with a guy and still live with her parents.

I have thrown out a few applications, just to get the ball rolling. I managed to save up enough money from my last job to stay on top of my bills for the next 2 months. I have zero doubt I can find another pizza job if I had too…quickly as well. So until I pull that trigger I’d like to see what other opportunities present themselves. Like I said I have zero problem folks with full-time work. Heck I’ll work 55 hours a week and some change! I’ll even…I’ll EVEN go back to 1 day a week off if I had to.

But zero days off and 70+ hours a week? Grow up! I’m not a freakin machine nor do I live under the iron curtain during ww2. I have every right for a sane work week and lifestyle that allows me to actually see my kids, practice my faith, and cook myself a decent meal. Anyone who acts like I’m asking for far too much if it means I can’t afford a 4 bedroom house for my fiancé And 2 kids can go suck a lemon. And if this lady of mine expects or demands it of me as well…she either needs to realize she shouldn’t marry me, or let me move us all to Idaho where we can actually AFFORD such a luxury with my crazy demands

 

[chevalier]

It paints a beautiful picture doesn’t it? A MAN working all the time and sacrificing his life for the good of his family! But where’s the limit?

The limit certainly falls before the man puts his life and health in danger, which actually jeopardizes his ability to work at all. People dead at 40 from a stroke go to the grave, not to work. It also falls a good deal before the man starts being a miserable quarreller or drunk for taking the stress out on his family and making them miserable. Children need a living breathing father and women need a leaving breathing husband more than they need the extra cash. Whether they realize that is a different story, but I would think they do.

Long story short i just quit a Job and was working 7 days a week with some weeks clocking in at 70+ hours! I couldn’t do it. I’m sorry but there was no joy, no ability to even relax or function.

I know full-well where you’re coming from.

I was starting to miss my second son grow up and couldn’t even cook myself healthy meals!

Yup.

Now I have my fiance and her family essentially silently shaming me.

Life’s too short to overthink it. My advice would be to tell them in as friendly a way as you can make it (some comic relief could help, I guess, and a sense of humour always does, for which St Thomas More is the patron to pray) that you realize, of course, the financial hit, and you’re certainly not in denial about it, but you had reasons that became too pressing — including a son that needed to have a father when growing up. Tell them you understand what it may look like from their point of view, but you’d ask them to also understand what it may look like from yours, all in good cheer and remembering that you’re family (and are stuck with each other ).

Sure the money was good and ya maybe other males in her family did the same for many years but I refuse to stay at a job with pure misery and ZERO free time!

I guess that’s part of our lot in life, losing the free time, but with exactly zero free time a person can’t live. It destroys the mind, it crushes the soul.

Are those a man’s choices? Poverty or being a slave? Is there no middle ground?

Yes, there is. You could start a business or become an independent contractor and pick your own hours and size of workload. It isn’t easy, and some people eventually decide to have a physical office that’s not home because telling the family that dad is physically here but is also at work and shouldn’t be disturbed doesn’t exactly meet with full understanding. In any case, once you get some measure of independence, enough to decide on your workload and workflow, you at least have more power to regulate the traffic.

Screw that folks I choose poverty and thank the good Lord I live on American soil where “poverty” means I get a flat screen TV and a smart phone

Of course, and you didn’t even mension owning a car (and possibly the house already, depending on mortgage status), and probably not an altogether bad one, because it was completely obvious to you, the pauper that you are.

Am I some type of monster here?

Of course not.

Keep in mind my Church attendance and prayer life was practically non existent during this time. That kind of gave me Gods view on this lifestyle. Or so I think.

The third commandment isn’t only about worship, it’s also about rest. The two are somehow, mysteriously, combined. Work, on the other hand, is man’s lot on this earth, as both punishment for and (partial) remedy to problems caused by Original Sin, but a man works to live rather than living to work. The latter is more like a calling. Doesn’t look like your previous job was your calling, now does it?

 

[chevalier]

Oh, and just to be sure: freelancers, practitioners, independent contractors, sole-proprietors etc. can be very, very miserable. The lot habitually struggle with work-and-life balance. It clearly isn’t for everybody. But 1) it’s theoretically viable, you might as well try it; and 2) you kinda seem like someone for whom it might work. You aren’t afraid to think outside the box, you aren’t completely inhibited by what others think of you, and you’re a courageous sort of guy, might as well be entrepreneurial to round out the set. No shame if it doesn’t work for you. You would, however, have to mind work-and-life balance right from the beginning. It would affect all sorts of things — planning, organization, business model, prices etc. If you want a civilized amount of free time and not too much sweatshop drudgery, then at this day and age you probably need to focus on quality stuff for customers who have the mind (and the resources, but the mind may well be more important) to appreciate it. Then you have fewer customers than the ‘hire me! hire me! I’m cheap!’ crowd, but you make about as much money as they do, putting much less time in. When more customers eventually come for your quality pampered stuff, you at least have some real money to show for it. At which point you put up an out-of-office notice on your auto-responder and take a long holiday.