What's better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

[fakename]

What’s better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

Here’s an interesting situtation:

My parents are asking me to do the dishes but I want to focus on spiritual improvement/solving moral dilemmas. The dishes don’t need to be done because they aren’t taking up space or disgusting, while at the same time, it seems that moral improvement and learning about first principles is good for itself and so objectively better so that, the cost-benefit being calculated, I should learn stuff on the computer rather than cooperate with my household “duties”.

Is that a correct moral calculation or did I get something wrong?

 

[Nate13]

Obedience to parents trumps. Look to Padre Pio for an example.

 

[Bookcat]

The moral theology would tell you to do the dishes …or ask for a delay from your parents.

 

[edward_george]

Do the dishes, get them done quickly, then go about your research. It’s not like putting off your academic pursuits for a few minutes (if it’s not that many dishes) is really going to throw you off track in your thinking. Besides, some of my best work has come from long dish-washing sessions–it’s amazing how well hot water releases our thinking power, so it seems.

-ACEGC

 

[bmullins]

There is no commandment of ‘thou shalt look up moral theology’, but there is a commandment to honor your father and mother. Interestingly enough it’s the first commandment with a promise attached to it.

[bibledrb]ephesians 6:1-2[/bibledrb]

Take care of the dishes now and you’ll have plenty of free time later to learn. Besides, do the dishes in a way that allows you to pray at all time without ceasing. Use the time you are doing dishes to reflect on what you are learning. Do them as if they were God’s dishes (for in truth they are). Take time to get them clean, and to put them away with care. The whole time can be a moment of prayer and contemplation if you let it.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Go wash the dishes. Read some Catechism after you ask your parents if they need any other help.

 

[fakename]

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

 

[Bookcat]

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

It is not unreasonable for your parents to tell their son to wash the dishes. A son need not see the ‘reason’ behind a parent telling them they are to do the dishes. They are to obey their parents here.

One is under their authority as parents. So they need to do the dishes. They can ask for a delay etc but in the end they need to do the dishes there and then if such is what they are directed to do.

Now if the son where told to go and steal money from his employer…well then it would be sinful to obey.

 

[bmullins]

You’re missing the call to serve others. Our calling is not to do what ‘we’ want to do at all times, but to do what God asks of us and to serve others. You’re premise is “I want to do something else, and because it doesn’t inconvenience anyone to ignore their request, then my something trumps their something.”

I hardly see your parents request as unreasonable. You live in the house. You are part of the family. You should indeed help out.

 

[chevalier]

What’s better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

Here’s an interesting situtation:

My parents are asking me to do the dishes but I want to focus on spiritual improvement/solving moral dilemmas. The dishes don’t need to be done because they aren’t taking up space or disgusting, while at the same time, it seems that moral improvement and learning about first principles is good for itself and so objectively better so that, the cost-benefit being calculated, I should learn stuff on the computer rather than cooperate with my household “duties”.

Is that a correct moral calculation or did I get something wrong?

You can’t become moral in the abstract. You improve by doing, not only by learning and improving your knowledge of what’s right and what’s wrong. I’d be careful with the quotation marks on your duties, too.

Also, whether the dishes are taking up space or not or disgusting or not is more up to your parents to judge than it is to you and, in fact, even though you’re close to adult as I understand you to be, your parents are still responsible for your spiritual and other growth and their choices can be binding on you. You also need to honour them, which means you can’t really second-guess them, put your own judgement above theirs, submit their requests (let alone “direct orders”) to your own judgement of what’s more expedient or what would be more perfect etc. It may in fact be more perfect for you to give up on some of the moral theology reading in order to humbly and down-to-earthly wash the dishes for your mother. You can also rearrange your schedule. Five minutes of dish-washing doesn’t matter much, really. If the dish-washing really takes up significant time, you could take it from e.g. the time you spend reading for pleasure or playing computer games or playing sport (all which, by your logic, should be inferior to reading about moral theology ). And remember that moral theology reading can be put off. It’s a different thing to read it and to be reading it right here and now.

And be very careful with temptations of pride where the perfection stuff is concerned or where you’re making judgements, especially if they involve whatever your parents or teachers want you to be doing.

As a practical solution to similar problems, you can try and develop the habit of picking up after yourself immediately or doing what needs to be done in advance (complying preemptively, so to say ), so you can read without being disturbed. Or perhaps ask your parents what needs to be done now so you could focus on reading later.

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

It’s not clear we don’t have to do what’s unreasonable, actually. In fact, you’d need to remember that the judgement of what’s reasonable will be your parents’ here rather than yours, and even if they weren’t particularly reasonable, as long as what they required weren’t evil or “go outside and stand on one leg for 2 hours” unreasonable, you’d normally obey. Perhaps you need to rekindle the love you have for your parents a bit. It’s not about mushy feelings but mushy feelings actually help. Think of your mother carrying you around in her belly, stroking your head as your were born, your father watching, both of them working their hands off to feed you and clothe you.

 

[fakename]

It is not unreasonable for your parents to tell their son to wash the dishes. A son need not see the ‘reason’ behind a parent telling them they are to do the dishes. They are to obey their parents here.

One is under their authority as parents. So they need to do the dishes. They can ask for a delay etc but in the end they need to do the dishes there and then if such is what they are directed to do.

Now if the son where told to go and steal money from his employer…well then it would be sinful to obey.

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.
The problem here is determining how reasonable a particular contingent matter is -it is in practice impossible to do w/o sound science and yet science is based on particular experiences…

 

[fakename]

You’re missing the call to serve others. Our calling is not to do what ‘we’ want to do at all times, but to do what God asks of us and to serve others. You’re premise is “I want to do something else, and because it doesn’t inconvenience anyone to ignore their request, then my something trumps their something.”

I hardly see your parents request as unreasonable. You live in the house. You are part of the family. You should indeed help out.

My point was that the very fact that it doesn’t inconvenience anyone, proves that it’s natural. And what is natural should not bother anyone including parents.

 

[gelsbern]

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.
The problem here is determining how reasonable a particular contingent matter is -it is in practice impossible to do w/o sound science and yet science is based on particular experiences…

There is no release from following an unreasonable order from your parents, only unlawful and immoral ones. Since washing a clean car is neither illegal nor immoral, your duty under the commandments is to wash the car. The same thing for the dishes, there doesn’t need to be reasons.

 

[fakename]

You can’t become moral in the abstract. You improve by doing, not only by learning and improving your knowledge of what’s right and what’s wrong. I’d be careful with the quotation marks on your duties, too.

Also, whether the dishes are taking up space or not or disgusting or not is more up to your parents to judge than it is to you and, in fact, even though you’re close to adult as I understand you to be, your parents are still responsible for your spiritual and other growth and their choices can be binding on you. You also need to honour them, which means you can’t really second-guess them, put your own judgement above theirs, submit their requests (let alone “direct orders”) to your own judgement of what’s more expedient or what would be more perfect etc. It may in fact be more perfect for you to give up on some of the moral theology reading in order to humbly and down-to-earthly wash the dishes for your mother. You can also rearrange your schedule. Five minutes of dish-washing doesn’t matter much, really. If the dish-washing really takes up significant time, you could take it from e.g. the time you spend reading for pleasure or playing computer games or playing sport (all which, by your logic, should be inferior to reading about moral theology ). And remember that moral theology reading can be put off. It’s a different thing to read it and to be reading it right here and now.

And be very careful with temptations of pride where the perfection stuff is concerned or where you’re making judgements, especially if they involve whatever your parents or teachers want you to be doing.

As a practical solution to similar problems, you can try and develop the habit of picking up after yourself immediately or doing what needs to be done in advance (complying preemptively, so to say ), so you can read without being disturbed. Or perhaps ask your parents what needs to be done now so you could focus on reading later.

Good advice.

 

[Bookcat]

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.

Look we are not talking about such out of the very ordinary moments that one could imagine could take place.

Ordinarily the kid is to simply do task assigned. He is not ordinarily to start trying to evaluate the direction of the parent to wash the car.

(heck in that case the parent may be teaching him a lesson he does not see yet)

 

[Nate13]

My point was that the very fact that it doesn’t inconvenience anyone, proves that it’s natural. And what is natural should not bother anyone including parents.

If we are only obedient when it makes sense to us is that really being obedient, or is it just doing what makes sense anyways regardless of what someone tells us to do?

 

[fakename]

There is no release from following an unreasonable order from your parents, only unlawful and immoral ones. Since washing a clean car is neither illegal nor immoral, your duty under the commandments is to wash the car. The same thing for the dishes, there doesn’t need to be reasons.

But why?

I mean if I gave an order to my kids: affirm each side of a contradiction, I don’t think that they would be obliged to affirm. That would just be a reductio ad absurdum.

 

[graceandglory]

What’s better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

Here’s an interesting situtation:

My parents are asking me to do the dishes but I want to focus on spiritual improvement/solving moral dilemmas. The dishes don’t need to be done because they aren’t taking up space or disgusting, while at the same time, it seems that moral improvement and learning about first principles is good for itself and so objectively better so that, the cost-benefit being calculated, I should learn stuff on the computer rather than cooperate with my household “duties”.

Is that a correct moral calculation or did I get something wrong?

To obey is better than sacrifice.
To everything there is a season.
Children, obey your parents. For this is right.

You, my son are morally obligated to obey your parents.

 

[chevalier]

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.
The problem here is determining how reasonable a particular contingent matter is -it is in practice impossible to do w/o sound science and yet science is based on particular experiences…

1. There’s a difference between “contrary to reason” and “unreasonable”. A lot of small favours parents could ask of you could be defined as unreasonable but definitely not as contrary to reason. Chances are by the time you’re 30 you’ll love doing those unreasonable things for your mother or father. You like will love doing them for your wife and your own children too.
2. Again, parents’ judgement ranks above the kid’s judgement when it comes to thinks like reasonability, expediency, experience-based reasoning etc. Much like with a boss at work. Try arguing about the rational way of flipping burgers.
3. “Sound science” is not something a minor is an expert in, no offence. But I’m sure you understand this. By the way, when I was a kid I knew all sorts of things “better” than the adult world around me. I changed many of those opinions a couple of years later. Sound science is about a decade away.
4. At any rate, simple parental requests don’t have to stand up to some imaginary science/management/economy/sound government analysis by the child. Actually, even if a child would know how to run such an analysis than his parents do (on which I wouldn’t count but which is possible), the same can’t really be said about knowing how to run a house. I’m doing Ph.D., final year. I don’t know how to run a house.
5. Washing a clean car sounds like a fine idea of punishment. Besides, it would have to be shiny spotless clean to make a doubtless case of not benefitting from cleaning (“not needing cleaning” would be a tad too presuming). In which case the parents would need to be either cruel or mentally unstable (if not both), none of which you believe your parents to be, do you.

 

[graceandglory]

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

I would go so far to say that as long as those dishes wait, you are being lazy, and are not in God’s will or covered by grace. Your first responsibility is to obey the commandments.