What's better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

[chevalier]

well perhaps I’m just expecting too much from the forums?

In anycase, thanks for the advice y’all it really helps. But this thread is not over, I would esp. like to hear the difference b/t unreasonable and contrary to reason.

Nothing special really, I just meant to say in simple terms that what we see as unreasonable isn’t the same as what theology sees as contrary to reason. If your mother asked you to make her tea, then sent you back for sugar, then again for lemon, then apologetically requested that you go bring some cookies, she’d hardly be being reasonable but nothing in it would merit the “contrary to reason” that is sometimes used as an except from the obligation to follow laws or commands.

And you shouldn’t be overanalysing things so much, especially in juridical terms, especially without proper training (yet). Don’t make simple things into complicated ones, either, that’s not good. Generally simplicity is good (and is a virtue), unnecessary complication is not. Make sure you can follow your own logic and don’t get lost in your own language.

You probably need to make some adjustments to the advice I gave you above since you aren’t a 15-17 year old, as it has turned out. The role of the parents in your life is different at this stage. Still, it’s their house, you live with them and so on. Also, once again, please quit the lawyering. Your mum put aside a lot of good things, many times, to deal with her little son’s needs, few of which must have seemed reasonable in adult terms (and I don’t mean to bring you down with this but she woke up at night to change the diapers, too, as a young woman). Find some heart for her!

For the record, parents can’t just choose to ignore their children’s respective ages and insist that under their roof there’s no difference from cradle to college. But asking you to wash the dishes isn’t treating you like a toddler. In fact, most husbands are older than their wives and they are supposedly heads of families and still get told to wash the dishes (and right now if you want to see supper on your plate at all). Most of them shut up, suck it up and wash the dishes. Most are quite happy about it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Say WHAT???



He isn’t 15-17???



Then his mama needs to kick his lazy ungrateful little arse out of the house! ASAP!

Go buy your own dishes, son, pay your own rent, leave your dishes as long as you want! See ya!

 

[maryjk]

Just humor your silly parents and do the dishes!



You can chat on FB with your friends about how badly you are oppressed and get a lot of mileage out of it.

If your dignity is truly offended, study law so you can argue for the rights of others and get a lot of money for doing it.

This is a funny thread.



My 18 year old son still argues with me from time to time, but now I win because he can’t drive the car unless he does what I tell him. Ha ha on him!

And I was thinking, bet me kid, I control the electricity in your bedroom. Want to argue about “insert chore here”, I can shut down the electric to your room.

 

[tafan]

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.
The problem here is determining how reasonable a particular contingent matter is -it is in practice impossible to do w/o sound science and yet science is based on particular experiences…

No, The only time you are excused from obeying your parents is if they tell you to do something that is immoral. It makes no difference if it is reasonable to you or not. A parent telling you to wash the car that was already clean may seem unreasonable to you, but it is certainly not immoral. Therefore, you must obey your parents, or you are sinning by not doing so.

And your analogy is not applicable anyway, as you do not say that the dishes were clean, only that they are “not disgusting”. Two different things.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

The dishes not being done was making your parents annoyed. Don’t annoy them, they feed you. They didn’t ask you for something unreasonable or abusive. Did they give you dinner (or meal)? It’s appreciative to help them.

You could listen to a moral theology recording (Fulton Sheen is available on line) as you work.

 

[Catholic90]

Did you get the dishes done yet?

If you are an adult living at home, it is even more imperative you do things on your parent’s time schedule, not yours, as you are really imposing on them! If you don’t like their rules, move out and get your own place. Then you can keep it as you wish.

 

[FaithByProxy]

This has to be one of the best excuses to try and get out of doing the dishes I’ve ever seen!

You can look up the particulars of moral theology any time, but your parents want you to do the dishes now. Come on, if you’re living with them that’s the least you can do.

 

[Barbkw]

What’s better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

Here’s an interesting situtation:

My parents are asking me to do the dishes but I want to focus on spiritual improvement/solving moral dilemmas. The dishes don’t need to be done because they aren’t taking up space or disgusting, while at the same time, it seems that moral improvement and learning about first principles is good for itself and so objectively better so that, the cost-benefit being calculated, I should learn stuff on the computer rather than cooperate with my household “duties”.

Is that a correct moral calculation or did I get something wrong?

Honor your Mother and Father. You’re using “moral improvement” as a way to slack out of doing the family household chores.

 

[fakename]

user "St. Francis":

Fakename,
I am seriously amazed that you haven’t run across the injunction to obey those in authority over you in your studies on moral theology!

No one ever got to Heaven by studying moral theology unless they put it into practice. But even poor illiterate people have gotten into Heaven through their willing obedience, sometimes to unreasonable but still moral commands. I have heard it put prompt, cheerful, and well-done obedience.)

don’t worry I did them and I don’t have many chores right now, so I’m just going to comment on this since I think it’ll be profitable.

Now this is one of the differences b/t me and most people on these forums: I do know to obey those in authority but I always thought that it was implied that it was “reasonable” authority since a person who follows morality is “wise” and wise people don’t do things outside of reason. Now it would seem that there is no fault in doing unreasonable things until you realize that human nature is essentially to be rational. So doing unreasonable things seems to betray your own humanity.

Also, it is obvious that studying morality is important since the intellect commands the will so you can only be as good as what you know. This is too platonic but it is correct as far as it goes; that the only sin is ignorance and the only virtue is knowledge. That being said, I don’t know why certain uneducated people became wise men. Perhaps there is some other wisdom that is higher than normal wisdom.

But I’m just talking theoretically -I’m in no mood for starting arguments or getting people angry. I guess what I am asking is "why and I so different "?

 

[Barbkw]

Now this is one of the differences b/t me and most people on these forums: So doing unreasonable things seems to betray your own humanity.

What’d they make you do, clean out the cat box?

 

[fakename]

user "Barbkw":

What’d they make you do, clean out the cat box?

ha! well no but I’m just going by the definitions of things as I see them.

Actually I’ve come to realize that if morality is a science, then there must be some good logical reason why people should just obey things w/o knowing the reason why. I’m sure it’ll come to me if I just look hard enough.

But yeah, the ought of logic is different from the ought of morality and yet connected to it.

I don’t feel like bothering anyone further so I’m just going to think more on this issue. Thanks for the help.

 

[tafan]

don’t worry I did them and I don’t have many chores right now, so I’m just going to comment on this since I think it’ll be profitable.

Now this is one of the differences b/t me and most people on these forums: I do know to obey those in authority but I always thought that it was implied that it was “reasonable” authority since a person who follows morality is “wise” and wise people don’t do things outside of reason. Now it would seem that there is no fault in doing unreasonable things until you realize that human nature is essentially to be rational. So doing unreasonable things seems to betray your own humanity.

…

Perhaps, If we could all trust our own reason when it pertains to our actions, there would be no need for authority or obediance. Alas, we are fallen creatures, so we need to just blindly submit sometimes. Its good for the humility.

Your a kid at home, obey your parents; pretty much end of story. Try to reason yourself out of it all you want, if your dad ends up knocking you upside the head, don’t say you weren’t warned on the CAF,

 

[Angela77]

It is not unreasonable for your parents to tell their son to wash the dishes. A son need not see the ‘reason’ behind a parent telling them they are to do the dishes.

I think the son DOES have the right to see the reason. If one doesn’t question what others ask them to do, then it’s easy to fall into a moral trap. If one just blindly follows commands, when the command is immoral, s/he won’t see that it’s wrong. I think it’s important even to question parents. They’re right 99 percent of the time, but even adults aren’t perfect. For example, sometimes my mom tries to talk me out of going to Mass. But I don’t listen to her in this circumstance.

 

[asd72]

don’t worry I did them and I don’t have many chores right now, so I’m just going to comment on this since I think it’ll be profitable.

Now this is one of the differences b/t me and most people on these forums: I do know to obey those in authority but I always thought that it was implied that it was “reasonable” authority since a person who follows morality is “wise” and wise people don’t do things outside of reason. Now it would seem that there is no fault in doing unreasonable things until you realize that human nature is essentially to be rational. So doing unreasonable things seems to betray your own humanity.

Also, it is obvious that studying morality is important since the intellect commands the will so you can only be as good as what you know. This is too platonic but it is correct as far as it goes; that the only sin is ignorance and the only virtue is knowledge. That being said, I don’t know why certain uneducated people became wise men. Perhaps there is some other wisdom that is higher than normal wisdom.

But I’m just talking theoretically -I’m in no mood for starting arguments or getting people angry. I guess what I am asking is "why and I so different "?

I think there is a danger in blindly following authority, experiments have shown that many people will do things that normally they would consider wrong if told to by someone they consider an authority figure.

In your case, your parents asked you to do the dishes. I think you can safely deduct that doing the dishes is not a morally wrong action, so you should do as you are asked, or better yet help out without being asked.

 

[Bookcat]

I think the son DOES have the right to see the reason. If one doesn’t question what others ask them to do, then it’s easy to fall into a moral trap. If one just blindly follows commands, when the command is immoral, s/he won’t see that it’s wrong. I think it’s important even to question parents. They’re right 99 percent of the time, but even adults aren’t perfect. For example, sometimes my mom tries to talk me out of going to Mass. But I don’t listen to her in this circumstance.

It will be nice to see you with your children asking for reasons for everything you ask them to do something

(see my other posts for more detail)

 

[Barbkw]

… or better yet help out without being asked.

And if that doesn’t motivate you, think about yourself in 30 years.

Complete with a job, a house, a wife, a computer and a kid who doesn’t want to do his household chores cuz he’s busy looking up stuff about moral theology.

 

[Leegal]

You’re too kind.

But if you’re just joking then:

I wasn’t joking. Those with your skills are probably needed as advocates. Though I find your reasoning on the dishes to be off-base, it’s okay. You are young. As you learn to reason, you have a skill and a head on your shoulders – just a bit misplaced right now.

Work on your negotiation skills too. Eventually, you will see the need.

 

[St_Francis]

I think the son DOES have the right to see the reason. If one doesn’t question what others ask them to do, then it’s easy to fall into a moral trap. If one just blindly follows commands, when the command is immoral, s/he won’t see that it’s wrong. I think it’s important even to question parents. They’re right 99 percent of the time, but even adults aren’t perfect. For example, sometimes my mom tries to talk me out of going to Mass. But I don’t listen to her in this circumstance.

I think there is a danger in blindly following authority, experiments have shown that many people will do things that normally they would consider wrong if told to by someone they consider an authority figure.

In your case, your parents asked you to do the dishes. I think you can safely deduct that doing the dishes is not a morally wrong action, so you should do as you are asked, or better yet help out without being asked.

I do not think that people need to understand the reasoning behind an order before obeying it. That puts the subordinate person, who is supposed to obey, in the position of obeying only when he is convinced of the reasonableness or whatever of the order. This is not what God wants us to do. He wants us to obey 1. any moral order from 2. any lawful authority.

So, if the order is moral, we must obey. If a police commander orders his aide to deliver a message, the aide does not need to be convinced of the reasonableness of the order (why me, why not your other aide who isn’t doing anything? Why now, when I’m in the middle of doing something else? Why does it have to be delivered, why not mailed? Can’t you just fax it over?) and the aide does not need to know the contents of the message, the task of the recipient, and everything else to ensure the morality of the act. God does not expect the impossible. If the commander tells the aide to deliver the envelope, that is in and of itself a moral act. That is all the aide needs to know.

Now, those experiments showed not that obedience is a bad thing, but that the nature of obedience and morality were unclear to the students. The students were being asked to perform an immoral act, and they should have resisted. Moreover, the authority was not a lawful one, merely an employer for an hour. The employment was voluntary, the students could have walked away at any time.

The Catholic view of obedience is one that requires an individual to think as well as to obey. The individual must ask if the authority is lawful and if the command is moral. This requires that the individual maintain his individuality at the same time he maintains his willingness to serve.

 

[vera_dicere]

Stop being lazy. Do the dishes.

 

[upbeatjonm]

Reminds me of a great quote from PJ O’Rourke (former national lampoon writer turned conservative).

He said “everyone wants to save the world, but no one want to help Mom with the dishes”. That always struck me as simultaniously funny and profound.