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spockrates
Guest
And why do you suppose the virtue you choose the greatest of them all?
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Julian0404
Guest
The very question cannot be debated without immediately encompassing, limiting and debaseing God by making Him less than God.
To assume that we as human can grade or evalute any aspect of God in terms of greater or lesser is atheistic by its nature.
If you wish to come out of the catholic closet and embrace your understanding of God, do not attempt to lead with your intellect, lead with your love.
To assume that we as human can grade or evalute any aspect of God in terms of greater or lesser is atheistic by its nature.
If you wish to come out of the catholic closet and embrace your understanding of God, do not attempt to lead with your intellect, lead with your love.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, Julian, you might be right that I am walking a fine line between offending God and trying to understand Him better. But I assure you that my motives are similar to those of Saint Paul the Apostleâs:
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christâthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
(Philippians 3:8-11)
Is not answering the question, âWhat is Godâs greatest virtue?â one way to know Christ and to become more like Him?
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spockrates
Guest
Or do you think it is possible to love someone and yet not try to know the one one claims to love?
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Katholish
Guest
God doesnât have virtues. Virtues are good habits of action which implies a temporal succession of actions.
God has attributes, but these attributes are not actually distinct in God neither are they distinct from His essence. In other words, He IS His attributes. Thus, asking which attribute is greatest is silly because they are all identical with His nature and with each other.
God has attributes, but these attributes are not actually distinct in God neither are they distinct from His essence. In other words, He IS His attributes. Thus, asking which attribute is greatest is silly because they are all identical with His nature and with each other.
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spockrates
Guest
Well said! It appears I was unclear. Let me rephrase the question:
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Which attribute of God is the greatest virtue for me to pursue for myself, and why?**
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spockrates
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Anyone?
Anyone?
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1holycatholic
Guest
Your question doesnât make sense.
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LilyM
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Thatâs an entirely different question - and I donât think anyone on here can give a sensible answer. It requires great knowledge of you, your strengths and weaknesses. Nor do I think one particular virtue is better than the others objectively speaking.
One pointer though - if thereâs a particular fault or failing that you think youâre particularly susceptible to, the thing to do is to try to cultivate its opposite virtue(s).
For example, if youâre prone to gluttony (that is, unduly catering to your own material desires to your detriment), then cultivate the virtues of charity (ie concentrate on doing as much as you can for others) and temperance (consciously choose a few small acts of self-denial each day, which can be something as simple as leaving the sugar out of your coffee or the salt and pepper off your food, or a short time under a cold shower, and build from there).
If youâre prone to sloth (laziness), cultivate the virtue of diligence. Reflect on the fact that your time is a gift from God, and that like the servants with the talents, you will be called to account to God for how well or poorly youâve âinvestedâ it. So when you feel like sleeping all day but donât need the sleep, then make yourself wake up and perhaps give that extra time straight to God by using it in prayer or spiritual reading or the like. When you settle down in front of the TV or to surf the internet, set a time limit (half an hour or an hour) and determine to do something productive - even if itâs prayer again - once that time is up. Set an alarm if need be to remind you. And stick to it.
Iâm sure you can find ways that will work for you in regard to other faults and failings as well.
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spockrates
Guest
To put it another way: What is the greatest virtue? What is the most good thing that I can ever try to do?Your question doesnât make sense.
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spockrates
Guest
I suppose Iâm still failing to articulate what I mean, Lily. Perhaps your answer to this question will help me more clearly express myself: What do charity, temperance and diligence all have in common? What one word describes them all?
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LilyM
Guest
Theyâre all virtues, all ways in which we can imitate Christ, and all attributes every Christian should strive to cultivate in themselves.
I thought I understood your question well enough - you said âwhat is the greatest virtue, what is the most good thing I can ever try to doâ. And Iâm telling you that there IS no one virtue or one good thing that is objectively superior to all the others.
To ask such a question makes as little sense as asking âwhat is the best colour?â - thereâs no such thing as a âbest colourâ in general. If you narrow the question - âwhat is the best colour to paint my house?â âwhat is the best colour to dye my hair?â then we could get at least somewhere towards an answer.
And to GET an answer weâd still need more detailed information, about what type of house you have, what colours you prefer as far as houses go, what colours your neighbouring houses are. Or with the hair colour question Iâd ask what colour your hair, skin and eyes are.
Same goes in regard to your questions about what is the âgreatestâ virtue, or what is the âmost goodâ thing you can do. There is no objectively greatest virtue, but simply the one that would be best for you to cultivate and pursue in your individual circumstances - which depends on things like your own strengths and weaknesses as I said before.
As to what is âthe most goodâ thing you can do - again, the answer to that question depends on your situation. Are you young or old? A student or a worker? A spouse and parent or single? And much more detailed questions besides.
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spockrates
Guest
But you have not answered my question, yet, Lily. For I ask, âWhat do all of these virtues have in common?â and you answer, âTheyâre all virtues.â This I already know! What Iâm asking is what is the one trait that all of these virtues have in common? What is it that makes them all virtues?
But I think you misunderstand. Imagine if you and I were viewing the Grand Canyon for the first time and I asked you, âWhat is the best attribute of this beautiful experience?â And you answered, âRed!â Iâd scratch my head. For I was not expecting you to say, âRedâ but instead, âThe color of the sun-lit rocks,â or âThe smell of the cactus flowers air,â or âThe sounds of the water flowing in the valley below,â or âThe feel of warmth of the breeze on my face and the sand in my hands.â
You see, what Iâd be asking you to tell me is whether the color, or the smell, or the sound, or the *feel *of the experience is what is best to you. I would NOT be asking what color, or what smell, or what sound, or what feel is best to you. And in the case of my query about virtue, the same is true. Iâm not asking for a specific example of virtue, but the category of virtue under which this example, and the other examples like it, belong. That one wordâa single word that describes all of the examples you gave of this one kind of virtueâthat is the one thing that I want to know is the best. Can you guess what that word is?
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LilyM
Guest
I told you much more than that. I added:
Those things are (part of, I didnât pretend to a complete answer or definition) what they have in common, and part of what makes them virtues.
But I think you misunderstand. Imagine if you and I were viewing the Grand Canyon for the first time and I asked you, âWhat is the best attribute of this beautiful experience?â And you answered, âRed!â Iâd scratch my head. For I was not expecting you to say, âRedâ but instead, âThe color of the sun-lit rocks,â or âThe smell of the cactus flowers air,â or âThe sounds of the water flowing in the valley below,â or âThe feel of warmth of the breeze on my face and the sand in my hands.â
You see, what Iâd be asking you to tell me is whether the color, or the smell, or the sound, or the *feel *of the experience is what is best to you. I would NOT be asking what color, or what smell, or what sound, or what feel is best to you. And in the case of my query about virtue, the same is true. Iâm not asking for a specific example of virtue, but the category of virtue under which this example, and the other examples like it, belong. That one word, a single word that describes all of the examples you gave of this one kind of virtueâthat is the one thing that I want to know is the best.
I understood what you wrote perfectly well, but you werenât asking that question!
Your question was not about my experience at all. If it was, you wouldâve phrased it in the following way - âwhat DO YOU THINK is Godâs best attribute, what is the best virtue YOU could cultivate, the best thing YOU could doâ.
Instead, you asked âwhat IS Godâs best attributeâ (there isnât one), and âwhat is the best virtue I (I being Spockrates) could cultivate, the best thing I (Spockrates) could doâ. In other words the questions were about yourself.
Of course I canât answer for you. I couldnât tell you what the best thing about viewing the Grand Canyon was for you, Spockrates, could I? Your experience of the Grand Canyon would be different to mine, and doubtless your âbestâ feature would be something different entirely to my âbestâ. I couldnât tell you âyes, the colour of it was what was best for youâ.
Youâd have to figure out for yourself whether in your experience the colour or smell or whathaveyou was best for you. And me telling you whatâs best about it for me wonât help you answer that question at all, because thereâs a huge difference between me and my experiences and you and yours.
So you have to figure out for yourself what the best virtue is for you to cultivate, and what the best thing is for you to do. And if youâre asking me anything else, for example about my experiences, then I donât care to answer.
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spockrates
Guest
I told you much more than that. I added:
Yes, sorry I missed that!
But Iâm still not sure I follow you. If you had to sum it up in one word what it means to imitate Christ, what would that word be?
For example, would it be justice? Are all of the acts you mentioned examples of judging sinners justly (as Christ will do)? Or would it be wisdom? Are all of the acts you mentioned examples of discerning the truth correctly (as Christ did)? Or is there some other word to describe the acts you tell me to adopt in order to imitate Christ?
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1holycatholic
Guest
The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists the cardinal virtues:
- prudence
- justice
- fortitude
- temperance
- faith
- hope
- charity
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spockrates
Guest
Holy Cow, Holy Catholic! Thank you.
I believe the CCC also lists wisdom as a class (or category) of virtue, does it not?
Yes, I think the classes of virtues are intellectual virtues, moral virtues and theological virtues:
newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm
Do you agree, Holy?
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spockrates
Guest
Lily:
I believe I see the one virtue which describes all of the virtues you mentioned in Holyâs list. Do you?
I believe I see the one virtue which describes all of the virtues you mentioned in Holyâs list. Do you?
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LilyM
Guest
No, itâs listed as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit -Holy Cow, Holy Catholic! Thank you.
I believe the CCC also lists wisdom as a class (or category) of virtue, does it not?
1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.
How, if youâve been reading the Catechism, did you miss this part -
1811 It is not easy for man, wounded by sin, to maintain moral balance. Christâs gift of salvation offers us the grace necessary to persevere in the pursuit of the virtues. Everyone should always ask for this grace âŚ
It is clear that we need to pursue ALL the virtues, and not just one of them.
Having said that, of course charity is described by St Paul (and the Catechism) as being the greatest of the virtues, but that doesnât mean it contains, describes or summarises the others. Nor does it mean that we can ignore the others or are excused from pursuing them.
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spockrates
Guest
Then it is both a divine gift, and an intellectual virtue?
newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm
I gather that wisdom is defined as âa habit perfecting the intellect to elicit with readiness acts that are good in reference to their proper object, namely, truth.â Thus,
wisdom = intellectual virtue
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