Whats it like to be born again?

[Contarini]

You’re saying that the Good Thief – in the process of rebuking the Bad theif for his attitude – was doing a good work to gain His personal salvation?
Performing a ‘good work’ to gain salvation – would be a person Purposefully doing ‘something’ for the sole purpose of gaining entrance to heaven.

Fine. Then we can all agree that no one is saved by “performing a good work to gain salvation.”

With that silly straw man out of the way, let’s talk about the actual Catholic understanding, which is that the Holy Spirit works in believers, breathing love into their hearts and thus causing them to do good works and making them the kind of people who can be happy in God’s presence.

We clearly see this in the case of the thief.

There is much less difference between Protestant and Catholic perspectives on this point than most Protestants think.

Edwin

 

[Della]

teachccd

I Should have included Scripture passages – will do that Now – from NKJ Romans 10:9 & 10 “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Also – Ephesians 2 : 8 & 9 “For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God., not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
vs. 4"But God, who is rich n mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
vs. 19 “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.”
Another passage in John 20: 27 "Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.-- And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

And they’re all fine, each its own context. But again, you ignore all the verses pertaining to baptism saving us. Look them up, too.

A comment to ‘cathoholic’
You’re saying that the Good Thief – in the process of rebuking the Bad theif for his attitude – was doing a good work to gain His personal salvation?
Performing a ‘good work’ to gain salvation – would be a person Purposefully doing ‘something’ for the sole purpose of gaining entrance to heaven. Because the person doesn’t believe that God’s grace is sufficient – that Jesus Christ’s shed blood isn’t Really enough – that somehow God Needs our assistance to getting us to heaven. That for Some reason God’s power to raise Jesus Christ from the dead – that Jesus’s raising Lazarus from the dead – that He Still needs Our help – is – well – saying that God is Not omnipotent (all-powerful).

No, St. Dismas did not earn his salvation by doing a good work. Good works are what we do by the power and grace of God to advance his kingdom on earth. They are the fruit of God’s free gift of grace. Faith is also a gift of God’s grace, so it’s all God’s grace and not our good works that save us.

We must cooperate with God’s grace in order to receive saving grace. Even Baptists believe one must repent of sin in order to be saved. Is that doing a good work? No, it’s cooperating with God’s grace. That is what the Catholic Church teaches, that we cooperate with God’s grace by accepting his grace, which transforms us into the image of Christ, making us holy as our heavenly Father is holy. It’s all God’s doing, and none of our own.

 

[crochet_lady]

Della

Okay – here are the verses that the concordance of my NKJ lists for baptism
Matthew 21:25 Luke 12:50 Romans 6:4 Eph. 4:5 Colo. 2:12 1Peter 3:21

Baptisms Heb 6:2

Baptize Matt 3:11

Baptized Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3 1 Corinthians 12:13 Galatians 3:27

I didn’t include verses that teach baptism saving us because I don’t believe that it Does.

But there are also difference Kinds of baptism. Part of what happens at the moment Of salvation is our soul being ‘baptized’ into the body of Christ. and Water baptism – what we do/ baptism by immersion/ shows others that we have accepted Jesus Christ as personal savior. Meaning that we have accepted Jesus death, burial and bodily resurrection as Personal – He died and rose again for Me. When a person comes up out of the water – we are showing others around us that we are Now ready to live our life for Christ. Because we believe that what He did for us on the cross was sufficient to give us New Life in Christ.

The Romans 6:3 & 4 passage says exactly that " Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

The 1 Peter 3:21 is more the kind of verse you’re referring to.

Galatians 3:27 "vs 26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ”

Closing this with Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady, you quoted:

10:9 & 10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Are you saying you believe this verse the way you quoted it? (By the way, I believe it the way you quoted it, but I am just asking if YOU believe it)

Do you HAVE TO “confess with your mouth” too like St. Paul says?

If you do affirm that you MUST “confess with your mouth”, you too are affirming a “work”.

The reasons many people see this of “working” and “salvation” as being mutually exclusive, is they were never taught to see Jesus as WORKING in us and through us.

They wrongly conclude that because Jesus said “It is finished” that the fruits of all of Jesus justifying work was done on Calvary (to see otherwise see Romans 4:25).

They also wrongly equate natural works with “grace works”.

Jesus worked on Calvary to be sure, but Jesus CONTINUES to work in us and through us. He CONTINUES to give us grace.

Far from Catholics denying Jesus’ power it is the sola fide follower who fails to see Jesus as being powerful enough to work in and through a person in a saving manner (along with that faith and hope He gave us).

You would agree with that concept but limit if to the gift of faith.

The Church and the Bible teaches Jesus’ power goes beyond giving us faith, and ALSO gives us hope, and charity.

This is WHY these virtues are called THEOLOGICAL or SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity.

• Supernatural Faith (Can’t do it on your own. It is a GRACE)
• Supernatural Hope (Can’t do it on your own. It is a GRACE)
• Supernatural Charity (Can’t do it on your own. It is a GRACE)

YOUR works cannot save you, but Jesus’ work IN US is Salvific (along with supernatural faith and hope). If you would like I can give you the Bible verses to back this up.

CCC 1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

The “merit” here in CCC 1813 is from God’s working in us, not us at all in a sense, and not us on our own in another sense (if you want I can back that up too but I thought I’d state it because “merit” is so often misconstrued by much of the Protestant community).

CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

 

[Cathoholic]

I didn’t include verses that teach baptism saving us because I don’t believe that it Does.

Please think about this.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady, you stated:

You’re saying that the Good Thief – in the process of rebuking the Bad theif for his attitude – was doing a good work to gain His personal salvation?

No. I specifically said otherwise.

I think ALL of this man’s gifts (his faith, hope, and charity, as well as his humility and EVEN his repentance) were GRACES.

I’m saying that all of this is God’s grace.

The Good Thief’s FAITH is a grace, the Good Thief’s HOPE is a grace, the Good Thief’s Charity (or CHARITABLE WORK) is a grace, the Good Thief’s REPENTANCE is a grace.

You can’t “earn” Heaven with your works.

Do you think YOU can “earn” Heaven with your faith?

You are concerned about people denying Jesus’ power. They deny the power of Jesus (as you correctly pointed out) . . . .

Because the person doesn’t believe that God’s grace is sufficient

I agree with this concept:thumbsup:.

The problem is some of the sola fide adherent’s denial that God’s GRACE is sufficient to not merely give this guy faith but give him MORE.

The problem is (some of) the sola fide followers denial that God’s GRACE is sufficient to not merely give this guy faith; but give him more saving graces including hope and charitable works in the context of salvation as St. Paul has taught.

Why do they reduce God’s Saving Graces like this??

This is likely because the sola fide foundation often teaches salvation as a mere moment ALONE, instead of a moment followed by a lifelong PROCESS.

Also the sola fide follower is taught to see the grace of Christ as mere “favor” and/or a dunghill covering or a covering ALONE, instead of favor, a covering, AND an interior INFUSED transformation.

Which leads to seeing our righteousness in Christ as God’s declaration ALONE, instead of seeing this a God’s declaration AND infusing us with His righteousness (because we don’t have it on our own).

Also the sola fide follower is taught to see all works as natural works ALONE, instead of a working of man, that BY the GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST gets animated, imbued, and completed by the work of Jesus Christ our personal Lord and Savior.

Some sola fide followers look at God as Judge ALONE, instead of Judge AND Father (Which may be why you see the Courtroom here as opposed to the Heavenly Court–and yes I read the book–and it served to reaffirm why I am Catholic).

This all leads the sola fide follower to think (in contrast to what the Bible teaches) that we are justified by . . . . . faith ALONE.

And these are some of the reasons WHY in the Protestant traditions, you tend to see “Covenant” as a mere “Contract” instead of a Sacred Family Bond, as Dr. Scott Hahn points out, and why “Being born again” or “Being born of water and the Spirit” is a mere human “work” in many of the Protestant traditions as well.

 

[Della]

Della

Okay – here are the verses that the concordance of my NKJ lists for baptism
Matthew 21:25 Luke 12:50 Romans 6:4 Eph. 4:5 Colo. 2:12 1Peter 3:21

Baptisms Heb 6:2

Baptize Matt 3:11

Baptized Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3 1 Corinthians 12:13 Galatians 3:27

I didn’t include verses that teach baptism saving us because I don’t believe that it Does.

But there are also difference Kinds of baptism. Part of what happens at the moment Of salvation is our soul being ‘baptized’ into the body of Christ. and Water baptism – what we do/ baptism by immersion/ shows others that we have accepted Jesus Christ as personal savior. Meaning that we have accepted Jesus death, burial and bodily resurrection as Personal – He died and rose again for Me. When a person comes up out of the water – we are showing others around us that we are Now ready to live our life for Christ. Because we believe that what He did for us on the cross was sufficient to give us New Life in Christ.

The Romans 6:3 & 4 passage says exactly that " Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

The 1 Peter 3:21 is more the kind of verse you’re referring to.

Galatians 3:27 "vs 26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ”

Closing this with Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, these verses clearly teach that baptism is more than a mere sign of faith. You’ve been taught that it’s merely a sign and that’s how your pastors interpret baptism, but this is not what baptism is nor what is does. No one believed that baptism is merely a sign of acceptance of Christ until after the reformation–that’s 1500 years after the founding of the Church. Most of the reformers themselves did not believe that. Baptism from the beginning was more than a sign of faith, it is the sacrament that initiates us into the body of Christ by removing the stain of original sin. If you read the early Church Fathers and the Didache (an early Church document), you would see that they all held that the sacraments confer actual grace, and are not mere signs, although they are signs, but that’s not all they are.

 

[LegoGE1947]

That’s pretty definitely not the “water” the Gospel of John is referring to

Moving and powerful as your testimony is, your interpretation seems to be taken primarily from the human traditions of evangelical Protestantism rather than from God’s Word.

Edwin

I’ve heard this also in an effort to explain away what Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve heard this also in an effort to explain away what Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus.

This is not the interpretation I was taught growing up (I was taught to read the “water” spiritually, but I definitely got the impression that this was one of those “difficult passages”). I first encountered it in the book Surprised by Truth and was disgusted because I thought that the Catholic convert in question was taking a bizarre interpretation almost no one held and presenting it as if it were normal. I’ve since realized that it’s actually quite common.

Edwin

 

[crochet_lady]

Ephesians 2:8 & 9 'For by Grace you have been saved through FAITH , and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT Of GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest anyone should boast."

Acts 16:31 Paul and Silas in prison – there was an earthquake and the doors of the prison were open and Paul Could have escaped but he didn’t. Anyway - the result of them having stayed put was that the guard asked them 'what must I do to be saved?" vs 31 “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your house.”

A comment had been made that the thief on the cross who accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior – that he was doing a ‘good work’ when he rebuked the other thief who was rejecting Christ.
It IS a good example of 'believing in your heard and confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, thou shalt be saved"
While they were Both on those crosses – Jesus was assuring him that Indeed , he Would be with Jesus in Paradise. BECAUSE Scripture Also says that for the believer – at the moment of death, we are with Christ.
Someone was challenging me about whether I really believed what that one verse said – believing with your heart and confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus. All I know, for Sure, is that for some time – when I was young, I wasn’t really sure I WAS saved. I had a great Head knowledge, but realized that it wasn’t a Heart acceptance – so – a pastor told us during a church service, that if a person wasn’t really certain they Were saved. That right there where we’re sitting – we can talk to God about it – and I Did. I told Him what I believed – Him and Him alone. That I realized that nothing I could do on my own could get me to heaven. That I was accepting His gift of salvation and thanked Him for it.
God’s Word told me that If I did That , then I was a child of God. And I Was peaceful inside. No more doubts. And some time After that – a few months – I was baptized.

There is Also a difference between the good works a person Wants to do as a believer – simply because we have a desire to do things for God. And the ‘good works’ a person Thinks they Need to do in order to be accepted by God for complete salvation.

The blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross is what God ‘sees us through’. What can wash away our / my sins/ nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh, precious is the blood that makes me white as snow., etc. "

There ARE those who believe that salvation is like someone throwing a life preserver out to a person drowning in water. The preserver has to actually land around the person’s shoulders for him to be ‘saved’ If the person has to reach for the preserver to hang onto it, he is doing a ‘work’ for his salvation from drowning.

In THAT concept – the Jews were not to do any physical labor on the Sabbath – they were to Only worship God. Do Everything the day before – clean, fix meals, No work. Going to the Extreme – a ‘work’ would be getting out of bed – lifting the arm to get food to your mouth – walking to where ever the ‘rest room’ was.
So - to what degree to we take bodily movement / talking to be a ‘good work’ – is that really saying that Jesus shed blood Isn’t truly sufficient? There Is Power in the Blood. God’s Power / ALL Powerful. All the Power that is Needed.

 

[Della]

Dear crochet lady…In the Catholic faith we have the real body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. Every Sunday we make an “altar call” to a real altar to receive the Real Presence of Christ, receiving his real body and blood:

Jn. 6:1.[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Trust me, we know all about the power of Jesus’ blood.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

The op only asked what it feels like, not for a technical theological/biblical definition.

 

[Della]

The op only asked what it feels like, not for a technical theological/biblical definition.

I answered that point in my first post. You may wish to re-read it.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I saw it many years ago, or maybe it was a remake, but the story is familiar to me. However, again, Sadie was not “born again” as Our Lord meant it. She had an awakening to faith, which any baptized person may have throughout the course of his life. Sadie had probably been baptized as an infant, but she had abandoned her faith fairly early in life only to make a ruin of it. But she wasn’t the only one needing a conversion of heart/awakening to faith, IMHO. The minister needed to have one that would teach him how to love sinners instead of being a turn off to them. No on likes a sour saint, no matter how holy. I rather think Our Lord would have something to say to him about it.

Feelings usually don’t come into it because being “born again” is a reference to water baptism, and since most people are baptized as infants or small children, it isn’t applicable to them that we know of.

If Sadie was baptized it was then that she was born again? I don’t know. Many people are then “born again” and never have the spiritual awakening. They may be born of “water” but not of “Spirit”. Sadie? well who knows what she did with her life after that. Since she is fictional we can imagine her a saint. But the reformer guy, certainly baptized and therefor born again, and he had a good dose of Spirit but also some problems and a fatal moment of despair.

As you pointed out, “Born again” is what Nicodemus called it: "3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus spoke of being born from above: “3:7
Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

“Born of the Spirit” “born from above”. It seems that is critical for a holy life. It seems to me the awakening. It sounds as though baptism without awakening, while it removes Original Sin, does not inspire for the relationship with God that is The Good News".

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady. You said,

All I know, for Sure, is that for some time – when I was young, I wasn’t really sure I WAS saved. . . . .a pastor told us during a church service, that if a person wasn’t really certain they Were saved. That right there where we’re sitting – we can talk to God about it – and I Did. I told Him what I believed – Him and Him alone. That I realized that nothing I could do on my own could get me to heaven. That I was accepting His gift of salvation and thanked Him for it.

God’s Word told me that If I did That , then I was a child of God. And I Was peaceful inside. No more doubts. And some time After that – a few months – I was baptized.

God bless you & the gifts you had with this experience. And I don’t want to detract at all from what you felt that night or still feel.

I am not trying to remove that or push you to be Catholic OK?

But I do want you to know what the Church (and the Bible) teaches. That’s all. Then as your pastor told you, “(you) can talk to God about it”.

You pointed out the need to affirm Ephesians 2:8-9.

I affirm Ephesians 2:8-9 (and even 10). And I am glad you brought Ephesians 2:8-9 up a couple of times.

EPHESIANS 2:8-10 (RSV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We ARE saved through “faith”.

Catholics affirm this verse (and all the other verses too).

But our Church warns us against ADDING the word “ALONE” (even in our mind) to Ephesians 2:8-9 when “ALONE” is not there that’s all.

I want to be absolutely clear on this. I affirm Ephesians 2:8-9 as does the Catholic Church.

We ARE saved through faith . . . .the Bible says so. (But it does not say faith “ALONE”).

You also mentioned Acts 16:31.

ACTS 16:31 (KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

We MUST believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved.

I want to be absolutely clear on this too. I affirm Acts 16:31 as does the Catholic Church.

**
Do I understand your view of how you look at these verses? **

I think I do (but correct me if I am wrong as I do not want to misarticulate your view of salvation).

You’ve believed on the Lord Jesus and admitted you are a sinner and utterly incapable of saving yourself, and believe Jesus as True God who has taken flesh upon Himself and is thus now ALSO True man. Asked Jesus to come into your heart and bring the Holy Spirit with Him and save you through His work on Calvary. You had tremendous undeniable interior feelings associated with this as well and gave thanks to God for all of this. And the phrase the Baptists (and some other Protestants) use for this is “being born again”.

• Parts of this CORRECT
• Parts of this INCORRECT

And I want to affirm all of the emotional feelings you had associated with this event, and there are many other aspects of this which are profoundly correct too. (I won’t get into the aspects that are profoundly incorrect with this view on this post but I may later as that directly concerns the thread topic).

Do you understand my view on this topic?

But I want to make sure you can also articulate the Catholic position on this because this is associated with being “born again” in the Catholic faith (I am not asking you to believe the Catholic position, but merely articulate it). I want to see if I have made the position clear or not yet.

So what do you think an informed Catholic would say concerning two things:

1. Are there any other gifts in addition to faith that the Bible teaches that we need for our salvation? What are some of these gifts and what are a few of these verses according to Catholics (just a small sample of verses would be OK)?
2. How can Catholics be required to do “works” when your own “works” cannot get us to Heaven?

Remember, I am not asking how a Baptist would answer these questions. I am asking what a Baptist such as yourself, would think regarding how an informed Catholic would answer these questions.

How do you think a Catholic (who has studied and understands their Catholic faith) would answer these two questions (because I want to see if you understand the Catholic view).

Incidentally, Catholics have no objection of asking Jesus into your heart. We call it a spiritual communion (and I and many Catholics do this daily). But we do take issue with this being called “born again” as this would be un-Biblical and would (and has) cause(d) other theological problems.

 

[Cathoholic]

Michael Mayo. I assume your articulating “Sadie” in post 52 is just looking at it from a Baptist perspective and you yourself realize that being “born again” or “being born anew” or being “born from above” is . . . .

. . . . . being born of water and the Spirit.

Am I correct?

The Catholic view of being “born again” is just what Jesus said: “you must be born of water AND the Spirit”.

The context of John 3 is Baptismal imagery.

Remember in John 1, Jesus goes down into the water, St. John the Baptist baptizes Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus. There were even supernatural signs that accompanied this such as in verse 32 ("And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.”).

John 1 = Water and the Spirit are discussed in the context of John’s Baptism of Jesus which among other things, prefigures Christian Baptism.

Jesus in John chapter 2 takes mere water and transforms it, which among other things, prefigures Christian Baptism.

When we are Baptized Jesus cleanses our “Temple” (see 1st Corinthians 3:16, 2nd Corinthians 6:16) and builds it into HIMSELF. We as “living stones” get incorporated into the fulfilled Temple, Jesus (see 1st Peter 2:4-5) not a mere Temple of stones and bricks.

Jesus in John 3:3, after tells Nicodemus that one must be born “anothen” (Greek for “again” or “anew” or “from above” and probably more correctly all “again” AND “anew” AND “from above”).

Nicodemus is confused in John 3:4.

Jesus in John 3:5 then clarifies and Jesus tells Nicodemus “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus would have known Ezekiel’s prophecy and Jesus’ clarification would point to . . .

EZEKIEL 36:25-26 25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Notice incidentally it is GOD who does the “sprinkling”.

Immediately after this event Jesus and His disciples went into Judea and Baptized (Christian Baptism begins).

Then in John 4, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that he will give her water of which she will never thirst of again at the well if she so desires.

John 3:3-5 is “sandwiched” by Baptismal contextual imagery.

And WHAT was John 3:5 again?

JOHN 3:3, 5 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” . . . 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

St. Paul gives us the same teaching in Titus 3:5.

TITUS 3:5 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

As Steve Wood says: “Remember John 3:5, Titus 3:5: John 3:5, Titus 3:5: John 3:5, Titus 3:5 John 3:5, Titus 3:5: John 3:5, Titus 3:5: John 3:5, Titus 3:5: John 3:5, Titus 3:5: . . . .”

Hebrews tells us the same thing:

HEBREWS 10:22 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The book of Acts teaches us the same thing:

ACTS 2:38 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said the same thing as recorded by St. Mark:

MARK 16:16 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

(adults who don’t “believe” are not going to get “baptized” and that’s why Jesus states this the way He does)

And WHAT occurred right after John 3:5?

JOHN 3:22 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.

When WE are Baptized, it is Jesus who transforms us. When we are Baptized it is not merely a man who Baptized you, but Jesus who is doing this work through men just as it was in the Gospels.

(This is part of the reason why it is not our MERE works incidentally–because it is JESUS’ WORK. Yet so many people deny Jesus on Calvary paid a perfect price and thus can apply His saving “work” in this way.

JOHN 4:1 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John . . . .

Was Jesus Baptizing disciples?

Yes. John 4:1 says so!

Was Jesus pouring the water (or sprinkling or immersing people)?

No! John 4:2 says so!

JOHN 4:2 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), . . .

Was Jesus Baptizing disciples?

Yes. John 4:1 says so!

We affirm ALL the verses.

Jesus Baptizes disciples through other people!

And this is WHY St. Peter can say:

1st PETER 3:20b, 21b . . . eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, . . . through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

• Baptism includes our 5 senses (water)
• Baptism goes beyond our mere 5 senses (The Holy Spirit)

 

[Cathoholic]

Michael Mayo,

Anabaptists came along and denied all of this, instituting a “tradition of men that nullifies the Commandments of God.”

These traditions of theirs included denying Baptismal regeneration and thus led to the tradition (of men) of withholding Baptism from infants as well.

Anabaptist religious innovators gave their own followers these terrible traditions that result in great spiritual harm to their own followers.

Anabaptist religious innovators such as Nicholas Storch, Thomas Dreschel, and Markus Stübner (some of the so-called “Zwickau prophets”). Also the politician Thomas Müntzer (1489-1525) in Germany, and “the Swiss Brethren” (Felix Manz, Conrad Grebel, and ex-Catholic Priest George Blaurock) in Switzerland.

This tradition of withholding Baptism from infants was later reaffirmed by others like ex-Catholic Priest Menno Simons (inventor of the Mennonite religion), and ex-Anglican Priest John Smyth (inventor of the “Baptist” religion).

John Smyth (inventor of the “Baptist” religion) Baptized himself because he didn’t think anyone else was worthy to Baptize him. Smyth’s actions drew contempt even from fellow Anabaptists of his day including Amsterdam separatist, Richard Bernard who disparagingly nick-named Smyth a “Se-Baptist” (short for Self-Baptist”).

Smyth himself was eventually excommunicated from the Baptist religion he himself invented because he warmed up too much to the Mennonites and their theology.

This is just a sampling of the spiritual patrimony of the Anabaptist tradition.

And all the while Jesus entrusted the Bishops (sometimes called “overseers”) with God-given authority and protection to keep these teachings pure. . . . And they have kept them pure through the GRACE of Christ.

Yes the Bishops are sinners and we acknowledge that. So was Judas a sinner (one who ALSO held an Episcopal or Bishops “office”–see Acts 1:20).

Yet the official teachings are still protected.

This is WHY the book of Hebrews can tell us . . . .

HEBREWS 13:17 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

So we must be very careful with our definitions and re-definitions of being “born again” lest it mean something it was never intended to mean which has serious consequences.

 

[RPRPsych]

It was on TCM last night.

Sadie is a fluzie fugitive, drinkin and hagning with the guys on some south pacific island. A “reformer” arives evangelizing. They, of course, hava a fight but he has pull and can get her shipped back to the states. He is sturn with tuff love. No one but his wife likes him because he is so rigid. I would like to discuss his character with someone. Sadie is desperate but she actually has a conversion guided by and inspired by him. She is willing to go back to the states knowing she will go to prison. She is offered an opportunity not to but says she now wants to go to square herself, to repent. She has a total change of life style. She says she feels reborn and eager to start a new life even though it means prison.

Shall I spoil the ending for you or do you want to try and watch it?

A hit, Sir, a most palpable hit! (No, I’m not going to spoil it either, but the point is: though an inner sense of peace or tranquility - or any intense emotional experience, for that matter - may mean something, it can’t be taken as “confirmation” that one is saved. Think of the experiences that some people report when taking psychotropics, for example.)

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Michael Mayo. I assume your articulating “Sadie” in post 52 is just looking at it from a Baptist perspective and you yourself realize that being “born again” or “being born anew” or being “born from above” is . . . .

. . . . . being born of water and the Spirit.

Am I correct?

The Catholic view of being “born again” is just what Jesus said: “you must be born of water AND the Spirit”.

Yes, that is the Catholic teaching as in:

CCC 1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually **brings about the birth of water and the Spirit **without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

And Della has articulated the distinction between the sacrament and the “Awakening to faith”.

But my main reason for bringing Sadie into it was because of how beautiful her conversion seemed, her awakening. And I was also taken by the reformer’s uncompromising but effective outreach. Indeed, had he not been so inflexible and held to the deportation, leaving Sadie at the end of her rope, fully realizing the vanity and meaninglessness of her life, she would not have turned to God. And I think we all tend to look at him as too harsh, too judgmental. And yet Jesus also had his words for the “brood of vipers”, “Fools” and Hippocrates".

 

[Michael_Mayo]

A hit, Sir, a most palpable hit! (No, I’m not going to spoil it either, but the point is: though an inner sense of peace or tranquility - or any intense emotional experience, for that matter - may mean something, it can’t be taken as “confirmation” that one is saved. Think of the experiences that some people report when taking psychotropics, for example.)

Yes, salvation is in God’s hands, perhaps even for the reformer in Sadie’s story.