Whats it like to be born again?

[jmcrae]

Della

Okay – here are the verses that the concordance of my NKJ lists for baptism
Matthew 21:25 Luke 12:50 Romans 6:4 Eph. 4:5 Colo. 2:12 1Peter 3:21

Baptisms Heb 6:2

Baptize Matt 3:11

Baptized Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3 1 Corinthians 12:13 Galatians 3:27

I didn’t include verses that teach baptism saving us because I don’t believe that it Does.

Wait - so even if it’s in the Bible that Baptism saves, you won’t believe it?

But there are also difference Kinds of baptism. Part of what happens at the moment Of salvation is our soul being ‘baptized’ into the body of Christ. and Water baptism – what we do/ baptism by immersion/ shows others that we have accepted Jesus Christ as personal savior.

Wrong. The Apostles said, “We believe in ONE BAPTISM for the forgiveness of sins.” (emphasis added.)

The Romans 6:3 & 4 passage says exactly that " Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Right. One baptism. Not “different kinds of baptisms.”

The 1 Peter 3:21 is more the kind of verse you’re referring to.

It’s in the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. Why do you disagree with it?

Galatians 3:27 "vs 26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ”

Even a little baby is putting on Christ when she is baptized.

Closing this with Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

He was speaking to adults. Adults who come to the Catholic Church seeking Baptism must go through a process of RCIA in which they are taught what the Apostles taught, and come to repent of their sins.

Infants have no personal sins to repent of, so they can come to the waters of baptism without all of that.

 

[M1Garand]

I suspect you are asking about more than Baptism you are asking maybe what is it like to feel the redemption of Christ. As for that God can fall upon you like a thunder bolt. You are instantly changed. This is probably more a massive infusion of grace or the awakening to the reality of Christ beyond intellectual understanding. For me a life long addiction vanished over night. Many things of life became unimportant and the sweetness of life poured out like a fountain. I think this is also very much like Buddhist enlightenment or what some evangelicals call being slain in the Spirit. My old self truly passed away during that experience. I am still a sinner but I can no longer sin and live with it or ignore it. It now tortures me to no end. I can also approach God without fear when I do sin. Even my sin seems to draw me closer to him. Scripture makes sense like it has not in the past. Mass is beautiful to me now. I have very little if any fear of death. However torments of satan become worse at times but when you recognize them for what they are you ask for help and it passes.

 

[Cathoholic]

Michael Mayo

Yes, that is the Catholic teaching as in:

CCC 1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

Thanks for the clarification:thumbsup:.

 

[crochet_lady]

cathoholic

As you’ve realized I’m Not Catholic, my understanding is that Anyone can take part in this Forum. And I Am Baptist. Have been all my life. But my parents started out as Presbyterians. While in the Air Force, they were invited to a Bible study. When they realized that God’s Word taught baptism by immersion, they felt led to change to being Baptists.

I’ve always held God’s Word as my authority. After all it Is God’s Word to mankind. So we have HIS truth. So I don’t recognize salvation as being Denominational in nature. So there is no Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian or Lutheran ‘salvation’. It’s the way God has chosen, made our being able to be in heaven / New Jerusalem with Him in the future eternity. And That is described in the last chapter or so in Revelation.

Your comment about Ephesians 2:8 & 9 ’ For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, ----- obviously we disagree about the thought about ‘faith’ because it IS by faith Alone, NO Works on our part are involved. It is by God’s Grace shown towards mankind. Romans 4:1-8 vs 2 - 4 – Abraham was justified before God because he believed in God.

What is your Scriptural foundation for mortal / immortal sins? Isn’t sin, sin? Mankind catagorizes sin – some people commit horrific ‘crimes’ against other people and some just tell a small, white, harmless lie. The question is asked 'does this dress look okay on me?" Actually it Doesn’t, but the husband is tired of shopping and he just wants to get out of the store, so he says ‘sure it does’ – when it really Doesn’t. So – maybe a harmless ‘little’ lie, but it’s a lie just the same. In GOD’s eyes – sin is Sin. And on Some level everyone realizes that. And 1 John 1:9 says “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

As far as the terminology of needing to be ‘born again’ – looking at John 3:3 Jesus Christ has been talking with Nicodemus – vs. 3 - 6. He is confused about What it meant to be ‘born again’. A person can’t be Physically born twice. The bag of water breaking is necessary for physical birth – Spiritual birth is from the Holy Spirit. So in both vs 3 & 7 Jesus is telling Nicodemus that “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” vs 7 “Ye must be born again” – I believe that Someone said that that term is not Scriptural. But it certainly Is.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that who so ever Believeth on Him, will not perish but have everlasting life.”

1 Peter 1:Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to the living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,-----who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

In closing – Matthew 16:18 The context goes back several verses – vs. 15 "He said to them, But who do you say that I am?. vs16 “Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. vs 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail againsts it "
Peter is acknowledging that He, Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. And it is Jesus Christ who is the foundation of the Church. Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone
Matthew 21:42 "And Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures “The stone which the builders rejected, Has become the chief cornerstone This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.”
Jesus’s mission on this earth was to point mankind to His Father. Christianity = Jesus Christ’s bodily resurrection from the dead. The Living Savior. When He ascended back to the Father in heaven, He told the disciples it was Needed. Because Then the Holy Spirit could come and indwell Every believer. Up until then, Jesus Christ could only be at one place at a time to minister. So He was telling them, it was Better for the Holy Spirit to come and abide in Everyone at the same time.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady. You stated:

As you’ve realized I’m Not Catholic, my understanding is that Anyone can take part in this Forum.

I affirm this. I am glad you are here crochet lady. Seriously. Perhaps I should have said: “Welcome” earlier. I will say it now: “Welcome!”

You said (with bold mine),

Your comment about Ephesians 2:8 & 9 ’ For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, ----- obviously we disagree about the thought about ‘faith’ because it IS by faith Alone, NO Works on our part are involved.

Can you please show me ONE verse where the Bible says we are “justified by faith” with the word “ALONE” in the verse (instead of adding the word “ALONE” to it in your comments).

You just saying, “Because it IS by faith Alone” is not going to be authoritative, or convincing to Bible-believing Catholic Christians. I want a Bible verse please.

Here is what Protestants like the ones in my own family like to think Ephesians 2:8 says (but it doesn’t say this).

**
NOT EPHESIANS 2:8 (Phantom Verse)** 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ALONE; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . .

Here is what the verse really says:

EPHESIANS 2:8 (RSV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . .

Again, Catholic Christians affirm we are justified by faith.

Here are a couple of Baptists who are now Catholic who discusses this concept. Here is one. Here is the other. Please consider listening to them.

The “NO Works on our part” I have already addressed.

I asked earlier if you could articulate the Catholic position on works (because I don’t think you understand it).

If you don’t understand the Catholic (and Biblical) position on this, that is my fault for not articulating it well (and I will try again).

I have had plenty of Baptist and Traditional Protestant teaching growing up and I know most of those people can’t articulate the Catholic view to you correctly. So it’s not a big deal if you cannot express it (as I said, I will just try again).

I think it is important that you can, so I know you at least understand what we are saying (I’m not asking you to believe it, I am just asking you understand what we are asserting so we can have the discussion).

You also stated:

Romans 4:1-8 vs 2 - 4 – Abraham was justified before God because he believed in God.

I am glad you brought up the sola fide/Abraham issue. I’ll post more on the Abraham issue and what the Protestant teachers taught to us (later) and why they were wrong. (Hint: Abraham WAS justified by faith . . . . but the Bible never says by faith ALONE. Men teach that but not the Bible).

What is your Scriptural foundation for mortal / immortal sins? Isn’t sin, sin?

I’m sorry but I am not going to go there on this thread. If you want to start a thread on it, let me know and I will be happy to address the issue there.

I am also not going to do the “What about Mary, Purgatory, The Saints, The Pope, etc. etc.” routine on this thread. If you want, I will address all of them on separate threads though as they are certainly worthy of discussion.

But I have a lot of Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal, and Charismatic Protestant as well as traditional Protestant friends (and Protestant family too) and have had enough discussions through the years to know the “birdshot routine” is a pretext to get off the subject being discussed and I try not to abide by it. I am not accusing them of doing this purposefully. But for whatever reason though, it happens when we do the “birdshot routine” we get off-subject fast.

The issue on this thread concerns being “born again”.

What did Jesus say about being “born again”? Did Jesus say it is being born of water and Spirit? Yes.

What DIDN’T Jesus say in John 3:5 (or anywhere else)? Jesus never talked about merely accepting Him into your heart as personal Lord and Savior–again as good as that is.

 

[jmcrae]

cathoholic

As you’ve realized I’m Not Catholic, my understanding is that Anyone can take part in this Forum. And I Am Baptist. Have been all my life. But my parents started out as Presbyterians. While in the Air Force, they were invited to a Bible study. When they realized that God’s Word taught baptism by immersion, they felt led to change to being Baptists.

I’ve been reading the Bible every day since I was five years old, but I have never found a verse that says, “Baptism by immersion is the only kind that saves.”

Jesus’ Baptism took place in the Jordan River, which in those days was about knee-deep. It’s unlikely that he was immersed.

It’s also unlikely that the 5,000 who were baptized on Pentecost Sunday in Acts 3, also in knee-deep water (at best), were immersed, either.

I’ve always held God’s Word as my authority. After all it Is God’s Word to mankind.

We know from John 1 that God’s Word is Jesus. The Bible is certainly a reliable transmitter of that Word, along with the Apostolic Tradition (which is what made the Bible possible) and the Church (which is what transmits both the Bible and the Apostolic Tradition to us here and now today).

Your comment about Ephesians 2:8 & 9 ’ For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, ----- obviously we disagree about the thought about ‘faith’ because it IS by faith Alone, NO Works on our part are involved. It is by God’s Grace shown towards mankind. Romans 4:1-8 vs 2 - 4 – Abraham was justified before God because he believed in God.

He was, but his belief in God was an action - when he realized that God is the Creator of the Universe, he didn’t say, “wow, that’s cool” and then roll over and go back to sleep - no. He got out of bed, went on a hunt, gathered the animals he needed, and made a sacrifice to God.

Without that action, his mental realization would have had no impact on his life whatsoever, and would not have resulted in faith.

As far as the terminology of needing to be ‘born again’ – looking at John 3:3 Jesus Christ has been talking with Nicodemus – vs. 3 - 6. He is confused about What it meant to be ‘born again’. A person can’t be Physically born twice. The bag of water breaking is necessary for physical birth – Spiritual birth is from the Holy Spirit. So in both vs 3 & 7 Jesus is telling Nicodemus that “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” vs 7 “Ye must be born again” – I believe that Someone said that that term is not Scriptural. But it certainly Is.

Jesus is describing Christian baptism.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that who so ever Believeth on Him, will not perish but have everlasting life.”

And again, belief is not just mental assent. Actions are required.

1 Peter 1:Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to the living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,-----who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Who is the “us” that he is referring to?

 

[crochet_lady]

jmcrae

James is a wonderful book – 1:22 "But be doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. vs 27 “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this ; to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” And the section vs 14 - 20. Faith without works is dead.
It brings out the difference between Faith that saves and the works that a person does as a Result Of their faith. Real / genuine Faith will result in a change in the person’s life.
The person who ‘walks the aisle’ or says they’ve accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior – but others don’t See/ Observe any positive difference in their life – there is reason to wonder – when a person becomes a Christian – the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell them – there are Fruits of the Spirit that should be evident. Love, joy, peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - Galations 5:22-23.

That’s because baptism by immersion Doesn’t save. It IS the outward action / baptism is complete immersion – there is nothing in Scripture mentioning Sprinkling. John 3:23 "Now John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

The passage you brought up is in Acts 2 not 3. And Acts 2:21 “And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 2:41 “Then those who gladly received His word were baptized, and that day about 3,000 souls were added to them.”
You say ‘it’s highly unlikely’ because at that time of year the water was only knee deep. That’s Your opinion. Some years ago we knew a father and his grown son who were reading Bible together and realized that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So they both did. Then they felt a need to be baptized. So they put water in their bathtub and took turns immersing each other in the bath water. And back some years ago I was involved with a woman’s prison ministry. The chaplain told us that a large tank – a Big bathtub container was kept available for those who wanted to be baptized. About knee-deep water. No doubt they sat in the tub and they were leaned back – their entire body was under the water – they were raised back up to sitting position – sitting in the water. That was their baptism.

The Bible is made possible / it’s God’s Word to mankind. He gave us His Word Through inspiration of the Holy Spirit to holy men of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21 “but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

“Us” means mankind. You and me and everyone else.

 

[crochet_lady]

cathoholic

One more comment regarding Ephesians 2: 8 & 9 "For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, NOT of WORKS refers back to Faith.
meaning faith Alone.

But also James talks about faith without works is dead. I was talking with another poster about that. James 2 – our faith should be Shown by our ‘works’. what we’re doing in our lives. But it’s not the ‘works’ /good things we do/ that Save us. The blood of Jesus Christ plus Nothing done by us. BUT as a Result of our faith – accepting Christ as Savior – the Holy Spirit puts the desire in our hearts to DO things that will please God.
And the Fruits of the Holy Spirit – Galatians 5? – love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, etc. are characteristics that come into our lives as a Result of our having accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior.

Walking an aisle Doesn’t Save a person. Going to church every Sunday – doesn’t save a person. Giving your tithe every week Doesn’t save a person. Those would be considered ‘good works’. But our actions After accepting Christ should Show a difference in us. The Holy Spirit puts a desire in our hearts to do good things pleasing to God.

 

[Della]

jmcrae

James is a wonderful book – 1:22 "But be doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. vs 27 “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this ; to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” And the section vs 14 - 20. Faith without works is dead.
It brings out the difference between Faith that saves and the works that a person does as a Result Of their faith. Real / genuine Faith will result in a change in the person’s life.
The person who ‘walks the aisle’ or says they’ve accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior – but others don’t See/ Observe any positive difference in their life – there is reason to wonder – when a person becomes a Christian – the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell them – there are Fruits of the Spirit that should be evident. Love, joy, peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - Galations 5:22-23.

Faith without works is dead. What does this mean? Does it mean that we are saved by good works? No, it doesn’t. It means that if one has no works one’s faith means nothing. Good works are the fruit of God’s grace, just as faith is. They are two sides of the same coin called grace. So, both are necessary because without God’s grace we can have neither faith nor good works. They work hand-in-hand with each other and are not opposed in any way to one another.

That’s because baptism by immersion Doesn’t save. It IS the outward action / baptism is complete immersion – there is nothing in Scripture mentioning Sprinkling. John 3:23 "Now John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Again, you have to ignore or negate plain Scripture to believe this. Certainly adults believed before baptism, but it wasn’t merely an outward show meaning nothing. Do you really think Our Lord commanded the Apostles to “go into the whole world baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” just as a mere sign that people had accepted him? No, it’s because baptism does what it says it does–it cleanses us of all sins–original sin as well as actual sins. It’s a one time sacrament since it marks the soul in an indelible way.

The Bible is made possible / it’s God’s Word to mankind. He gave us His Word Through inspiration of the Holy Spirit to holy men of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21 “but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

Not quite. The Bible is the written word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit as men were moved by him to write. But it is not the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. He is the last revelation of God to man. Jesus never commanded the NT be written. It’s wonderful that we have it, of course, and we certainly go by it in our faith and morals, but it has no authority in and of itself. It is but one part of Sacred Tradition that gave us our faith. It needs an authority to interpret what it means or every man will decide for himself what he should believe. If you hold to that idea you cannot definitively say anything about what is right or wrong regarding baptism or anything else because your interpretation is just as valid as mine or anyone else’s. There is only one authority that has the right and duty to interpret Scripture and to decide matters of faith and morals–the one Jesus himself established–his Church founded on Peter and the Apostles.

 

[crochet_lady]

Della

The other day you mentioned John 6:53 & 54 – I ‘Googled’ it cause I had no idea how to respond back. Is the verse to be taken literally or figuratively. I’ve read through the book of John several times and those verses have escaped my attention. But the next verse 55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.”
Previously in the chapter vs 47 & 48 "Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in M has everlasting life . vs 48 “I am the bread of life.”

(3:36 " He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.")

When Jesus changed the water into wine at the wedding in Canaan – the water actually Did become wine. The people could tell the difference. Does That actually happen when the priest presents the wine? does it take on the characteristics of blood?

Leviticus 17 forbids the Children of Israel from eating blood from the sacrificed animals.

Jesus Christ uses figurative speech to describe Himself – John 16:25 " These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father."
6:38 “I am the bread of life”
8:12 “I am the light of the world; He who follows Me will not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
10:9 “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”
10: 11 "I am the good shepherd
11:25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. …And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” “And she said to Him, yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but through Me.”
And 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser.”
chapter 4: the woman at the well. “but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst, But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Now I’ve always translated that to mean that God’s Word through Jesus Christ is the nurishment for our souls. Just as milk and food are nourishment for our physical body – God’s Word is to be the spiritual ‘food’ for our spiritual growth.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae

James is a wonderful book – 1:22 "But be doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. vs 27 “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this ; to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” And the section vs 14 - 20. Faith without works is dead.

The Catholic Church would absolutely agree with that.

It brings out the difference between Faith that saves and the works that a person does as a Result Of their faith. Real / genuine Faith will result in a change in the person’s life.
The person who ‘walks the aisle’ or says they’ve accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior – but others don’t See/ Observe any positive difference in their life – there is reason to wonder – when a person becomes a Christian – the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell them – there are Fruits of the Spirit that should be evident. Love, joy, peace , longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - Galations 5:22-23.

Again, we agree.

That’s because baptism by immersion Doesn’t save. It IS the outward action / baptism is complete immersion – there is nothing in Scripture mentioning Sprinkling. John 3:23 "Now John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Actually, baptism of any kind saves. Catholics would agree with you, by the way, that sprinkling isn’t a “proper” way to baptize. In the Catholic Church we either pour water over the person, or immerse them, depending on the climate and time of year.

We do have a “Rite of Sprinkling” but this is used as a reminder of baptism for people who have already been baptized.

The passage you brought up is in Acts 2 not 3. And Acts 2:21 “And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

It doesn’t say that that’s all that is required, though, and in the next section, we see St. Peter telling them that they need to be baptized.

Acts 2:41 “Then those who gladly received His word were baptized, and that day about 3,000 souls were added to them.”

Picture 12 men baptizing 3,000 people. Do you really think they were dunking each one under water three times? And, imagine the state of the water afterwards, if so. No one would be able to drink or bathe in it for several days.

I think it’s far more likely that they used the pouring method, as seen in this picture:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Some years ago we knew a father and his grown son who were reading Bible together and realized that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So they both did. Then they felt a need to be baptized. So they put water in their bathtub and took turns immersing each other in the bath water.

Just curious - to whom were the man and his son witnessing, there in the bathtub? Yet, God was clearly calling them to be baptized, in order to be born into His family.

 

[jmcrae]

Della

The other day you mentioned John 6:53 & 54 – I ‘Googled’ it cause I had no idea how to respond back. Is the verse to be taken literally or figuratively. I’ve read through the book of John several times and those verses have escaped my attention. But the next verse 55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.”
Previously in the chapter vs 47 & 48 "Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in M has everlasting life . vs 48 “I am the bread of life.”

(3:36 " He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.")

When Jesus changed the water into wine at the wedding in Canaan – the water actually Did become wine. The people could tell the difference. Does That actually happen when the priest presents the wine? does it take on the characteristics of blood?

Out of pity for us, Jesus does not cause the bread and wine to have the physical characteristics of human flesh and blood - most of the time. However, there have been times in the past when He did so, to show that He is really present there - for example, at Lanciano.

 

[crochet_lady]

Where in Scripture is there anything about ‘dunking three times’ for baptism? Definitely “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” – but Why dunking 3 times?

You’ve said that the passage doesn’t say that that’s All that’s required? Doesn’t it seem reasonable that if More were Required, That would be stated.

The water is being used for Baptizing. In and out in two minutes or so. It’s not being used as a rest room. No worse than getting baptisimal water in a church baptistry ‘dirty’.

The man and his son – in their bathtub baptizing each other. You asked who they were witnessing To? As they were reading God’s Word – the Holy Spirit led them to realize their need for personal salvation. So they accepted Christ right there – at home. THEN – after That decision on their part – they felt led to baptize each other. Their 1st step of obedience to God as a born-again believer. Okay – I see what you’re asking. Cause baptism by immersion is to be a witness to others of the inner decision that was already made. Okay, they were sharing to each other what they had already done in their hearts.

BTW – Church of Christ Also teaches that baptism is part of salvation.

What about those who Can’t Be baptized. There was a friend of ours Many years ago. Their granddaughter had been staying with them for the summer. Her parent’s were Lutheran – they had her sprinkled as an infant. During that summer, she accepted Christ as her Savior and wanted to be baptized. Her parent’s said No. Sprinkling was fine - no need for anything else. The grandparents believed in believer’s baptism. Their daughter felt bad because her parent’s refused her request. Not long after that the parents of the girl moved away – away from the grandparent’s religious influence.
But guys in the military – out on the battle field – if they would get saved and die before they have a chance for baptism, what happens to Them?
Or elderly people who are bedridden. Well – death bed conversions. No opportunity for baptism. In short – it isn’t Required for entrance into heaven.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady. You stated:

But also James talks about faith without works is dead

But I am not appealing to James (I could but I am not). I am appealing to St. Paul on why we cannot be justified by faith ALONE.

You also stated:

But our actions After accepting Christ should Show a difference in us.

I agree with this too, “they should”. But the question is, do they “HAVE to” have obedience for salvation? Not “should” they have obedience for salvation.

I am not saying you will be perfectly obedient. I am not claiming to have “faith the size of a mustard seed” either. And I am not saying you crochet lady are devoid of works either. I am just trying to faithfully unpack Sacred Scripture so I believe ALL of the verses that the Holy Spirit inspired.

Let’s ask St. Paul if we “HAVE to” have obedience for salvation.

ROMANS 2:13 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Thank you St. Paul.

Now I will ask you crochet lady. Do you “HAVE to” have obedience for salvation? I understand you “should” but I want to know if you “MUST”.

I am NOT talking about your mere obedience and “works” on your own. I am talking about Christ at WORK IN YOU (grace).

Does St. Paul talk about an “obedience” of faith? Or is it purely an interior gift?

(Before answering that see Romans 1:5, and Romans 16:26)

crochet lady. You also stated:

One more comment regarding Ephesians 2: 8 & 9 "For by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, NOT of WORKS refers back to Faith.
meaning faith Alone.

Considering Romans 8:24

ROMANS 8:24 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

What would you say to someone who said:

One more comment regarding Romans 8:24. “in this hope we were saved.”
meaning hope ALONE.

You don’t need any faith (you should but you don’t need it. You don’t need any works. You should but you don’t need it either. I don’t believe in Jesus Christ . . . BUT . . . . if there is a Heaven out there somewhere I DO HOPE to get there. So I guess because St. Paul explicitly says: “In this hope we were saved” then I get to go to Heaven anyway because I am following Romans 8:24.

I am just curious. What would you say to a person who tried to pass off such a tradition by adding the word “alone” to Romans 8:24 or any other verse when it is not there?

 

[jmcrae]

Where in Scripture is there anything about ‘dunking three times’ for baptism? Definitely “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” – but Why dunking 3 times?

In The Teaching of the Apostles, it says this:

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

You’ve said that the passage doesn’t say that that’s All that’s required? Doesn’t it seem reasonable that if More were Required, That would be stated.

It is. There are thousands of verses in the Bible, and each and every one of them pertains to our salvation, according to our time and state in life.

The water is being used for Baptizing. In and out in two minutes or so. It’s not being used as a rest room. No worse than getting baptisimal water in a church baptistry ‘dirty’.

The Hindus baptize themselves in the Ganges by full immersion once every 12 years. (Unlike Christians, they don’t require someone to put them into the water or say the words, so they do it themselves.)

It is considered a “water crisis” every time they do this, even though each person only takes two minutes (if that) to do this - simply because thousands of human bodies going into the same water at the same time, even if everyone is clean to start with, leaves a residue of salt, sweat, perfume, soap, and deodorant that overcomes the water and makes it unfit for human consumption.

The man and his son – in their bathtub baptizing each other. You asked who they were witnessing To? As they were reading God’s Word – the Holy Spirit led them to realize their need for personal salvation. So they accepted Christ right there – at home. THEN – after That decision on their part – they felt led to baptize each other. Their 1st step of obedience to God as a born-again believer. Okay – I see what you’re asking. Cause baptism by immersion is to be a witness to others of the inner decision that was already made. Okay, they were sharing to each other what they had already done in their hearts.

Surely they already knew? Why not wait to be baptized in front of a crowd of unbelievers?

BTW – Church of Christ Also teaches that baptism is part of salvation.

As do all who follow the Holy Tradition given by the Apostles.

What about those who Can’t Be baptized. There was a friend of ours Many years ago. Their granddaughter had been staying with them for the summer. Her parent’s were Lutheran – they had her sprinkled as an infant. During that summer, she accepted Christ as her Savior and wanted to be baptized. Her parent’s said No. Sprinkling was fine - no need for anything else. The grandparents believed in believer’s baptism. Their daughter felt bad because her parent’s refused her request. Not long after that the parents of the girl moved away – away from the grandparent’s religious influence.

The Apostles said, “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” The little girl had already been baptized; she was already a member of God’s family. She didn’t need to be baptized again.

If she had sins that she wanted to be set free from, her next step would be to go to Confession, since Jesus provides us with the Sacrament of Confession for sins committed after we have received Baptism. But we cannot be baptized a second time.

But guys in the military – out on the battle field – if they would get saved and die before they have a chance for baptism, what happens to Them?
Or elderly people who are bedridden. Well – death bed conversions. No opportunity for baptism. In short – it isn’t Required for entrance into heaven.

If there is a death bed conversion in a hospital or other setting where it’s possible to get a priest to come, then they could certainly receive Baptism on their death bed, together with other appropriate Sacraments, including Last Rites.

In the case of people who want to be baptized but die without it, we believe that there is Baptism of Desire, such that God recognizes their desire to be baptized, and understands that they were unable to receive it through no fault of their own.

There is also Baptism of Blood, in the case of a Catechumen (a person who is preparing to be baptized) is martyred for the Catholic faith before he can be baptized. This often happens in Moslem and Communist countries.

 

[crochet_lady]

cathoholic

The passage Romans 8: 23 - 25 – about the ‘hope’ – my response to the ‘conversation’ – hypothetical in nature. The word “hope” is being used in two different ways.
I can Hope that someone will remember to do a certain thing. But I don’t know For Sure that they will remember to.
And – the ‘Hope’ that a person has – the ‘assurance’ – a dictionary definition " A feeling that what one desires will happen: "His promise gave me ‘hope’. / He is the ‘hope’ of the family.
And I’ve looked up ‘hope’ in the New Strong’s Concordance of the Bible / it goes back to the original Greek / Hebrew. So I looked up ‘hope’ and it gave # 1679 "to expect or confide / trust / confidence, faith, hope.

So - Because of the cross – Jesus Christ shedding His blood / being the Perfect Lamb of God / we can accept that His Blood was accepted by God, as being sufficient to take away our sinfulness in God’s eyes. And Because of the cross – we Can have the blessed Assurance of heaven. Because we’ve accepted God’s gift of salvation.

 

[Della]

cathoholic

The passage Romans 8: 23 - 25 – about the ‘hope’ – my response to the ‘conversation’ – hypothetical in nature. The word “hope” is being used in two different ways.
I can Hope that someone will remember to do a certain thing. But I don’t know For Sure that they will remember to.
And – the ‘Hope’ that a person has – the ‘assurance’ – a dictionary definition " A feeling that what one desires will happen: "His promise gave me ‘hope’. / He is the ‘hope’ of the family.
And I’ve looked up ‘hope’ in the New Strong’s Concordance of the Bible / it goes back to the original Greek / Hebrew. So I looked up ‘hope’ and it gave # 1679 "to expect or confide / trust / confidence, faith, hope.

So - Because of the cross – Jesus Christ shedding His blood / being the Perfect Lamb of God / we can accept that His Blood was accepted by God, as being sufficient to take away our sinfulness in God’s eyes. And Because of the cross – we Can have the blessed Assurance of heaven. Because we’ve accepted God’s gift of salvation.

Yes, we can, but it’s conditional, not absolute. Not because God will not keep his side of the covenant but because we can always go back on our side of it:

2Pt.2[20] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
[21] For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
[22] It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

1Tim.5[20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In fear of what, if we cannot lose our salvation by committing grave sin?

Heb.10[26] For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
[27] but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
[29] How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Jas.2[9] But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Jas.4[17] Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1John.5[16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
[17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. Why would John write this if there are no sins that we can commit knowingly, with full will and intention that can rob us of our salvation if there is no such thing?

We must understand Scripture as a whole and not choose verses that seem to support things they really don’t. I know you have been taught the things you believe your whole life by good people who sincerely believe them, but that doesn’t make those things correct. People all over the world are daily taught erroneous things in good will by sincere elders: parents, teachers, religious leaders, etc. Still, that doesn’t mean they are right, either.

Jesus gave us the teacher he wished us to have in the Apostles and their successors, which is his Church. You need to ask yourself why no one believed as good Baptists do until nearly 1600 years after Pentecost in 33 AD. No one taught or believed once saved always saved in the early Church. They didn’t even have a NT for nearly 400 years. It was the Church that decided, and still decides matters of faith and morals.

These are historical facts that cannot be ignored. If you post on a Catholic website you are going to be given real history and real answers to your misconceptions and faulty theology. You are here because the Holy Spirit wanted you here. Now it’s up to you to be open to hearing the truth, even if it’s hard for you to hear, dear friend in Christ.

I know how hard that is because I once had all sorts of like misconceptions and I greatly feared losing my salvation if I let them go. My fears were unjustified. I have assurance of my salvation as I cooperate with God’s grace. But, if I turn my back on God he will not force me to love him and serve him. It’s a daily taking up of our cross, not a one time event. I expect to be carrying my cross until my last breath, but with God’s grace and love is it a burden that is easy and light.

 

[crochet_lady]

Della

You’ve brought up some really good points. In reading though the New Testament I’ve seen where many groups have gotten their basis of belief. But it goes back to what is the basis for 'being saved." Is God Really omni-present / omniscient / omnipotent or Isn’t He? He’s powerful enough to put this universe in place and keep it here – so He’s Also powerful enough to have His Blood / His grace – sufficient for our salvation. Our need / His sufficiency. He was / Is powerful enough to raise from the dead.

In other Forums’ I’ve had opportunity to share the Gospel of salvation / with atheists / an evolutionist. He refused to accept Anything Scriptural. He considered himself to be very intelligent – had a scientific answer for Everything. But refused to ‘hear’ anything Scriptural. He defended evolutionary thought to the hilt. He wouldn’t concede to even the Obvious.

Actually the reason I got on this Forum was because / after living in a fairly small Catholic community for over 20 years, I thought it would be interesting to hear the Catholic perspective. A friend of mine said that during her growing up years in this community, she was only in a neighbor’s house After the lady passed away. Because the lady was Catholic and they were not allow to have Baptists in their homes.
I’ve ‘Googled’ the origins of the Roman Catholic church. VERY structured. But there is rarely an opportunity for ‘sharing’ – we Used to go to the small Baptist church around the corner from us. Some of the people wanted a Baptist church in town. But it hardly survives.

On the ‘flip side of the coin’ I grew up in Central Iowa. A Large Protestant area. A Catholic church and school, but the Baptist church I grew up in started 4 other churches in that growing area. As various parts of the town grew - people from those areas started Bible studies and they developed into churches. I went to two different Bible colleges – a couple years at one and a semester at the other.

I feel it’s important for a person to know What they believe and Why.

 

[Della]

Della

You’ve brought up some really good points. In reading though the New Testament I’ve seen where many groups have gotten their basis of belief. But it goes back to what is the basis for 'being saved." Is God Really omni-present / omniscient / omnipotent or Isn’t He? He’s powerful enough to put this universe in place and keep it here – so He’s Also powerful enough to have His Blood / His grace – sufficient for our salvation. Our need / His sufficiency. He was / Is powerful enough to raise from the dead.

I am not disagreeing with this definition. As I wrote, God is bound to uphold his part of the new covenant sealed with Christ’s blood. But, this does not mean that we cannot lose our salvation. Clearly, we can–if we don’t cooperate with God in keeping it. We are free, at any point in our lives to turn our backs on God and lose our salvation. This is why Jesus established the sacraments–to aid us in keeping our part of the new covenant. God is always faithful, it is we who are not.

In other Forums’ I’ve had opportunity to share the Gospel of salvation / with atheists / an evolutionist. He refused to accept Anything Scriptural. He considered himself to be very intelligent – had a scientific answer for Everything. But refused to ‘hear’ anything Scriptural. He defended evolutionary thought to the hilt. He wouldn’t concede to even the Obvious.

This is because he has a free will, as we all do. Faith is an act of the will not just of the mind or the heart. We will to believe in God, and more, to do what he has asked us to do. Like the two brothers in the parable in which one told his father he would go to work in the field when his father asked him to, but he didn’t and the other said no but went anyway. Both did what they willed to do, no matter what they had said they would do. That’s where the rubber hits the road.

Actually the reason I got on this Forum was because / after living in a fairly small Catholic community for over 20 years, I thought it would be interesting to hear the Catholic perspective.

Perhaps a God-incidence. God works in mysterious ways.

A friend of mine said that during her growing up years in this community, she was only in a neighbor’s house After the lady passed away. Because the lady was Catholic and they were not allow to have Baptists in their homes.

Not allowing non-Catholics into one’s home may have been a cultural thing because the Church teaches nothing of the kind. Just the opposite, we are to be welcoming and hospitable. Perhaps she wouldn’t have door-to-door evangelizers in her home, which is perfectly fine because no one is obliged to open hid door to anyone who comes with the purpose of proselytizing them. Otherwise, this mystifies me.

I’ve ‘Googled’ the origins of the Roman Catholic church. VERY structured.

Every church has its structure. It may not be apparent, but its there all the same.

But there is rarely an opportunity for ‘sharing’

It all depends on what you mean by sharing. When Catholics gather for the Mass we are engaging in corporate worship, not a Bible study or fellowship, but we have those at their appropriate time and places.

– we Used to go to the small Baptist church around the corner from us. Some of the people wanted a Baptist church in town. But it hardly survives.

That happens. A lot of factors to consider as to why, yes?

On the ‘flip side of the coin’ I grew up in Central Iowa. A Large Protestant area. A Catholic church and school, but the Baptist church I grew up in started 4 other churches in that growing area.

We have large Catholic parishes where we live–so large a new one was started a few years ago for those coming from a nearby suburb. Ours happens to be the largest in our diocese, but that’s not why we are members there. It’s worship is reverent, it’s people faith-filled and the priests and others are good, solid Christian men and women. We feel truly blessed.

As various parts of the town grew - people from those areas started Bible studies and they developed into churches.

Well, Baptist churches and others like it are pretty easy to start. You only need a Bible and two folding chairs. But seriously, that’s fine. It’s good that people are getting a chance to pray and listen to sermons and sing. If that were all I wanted/needed I would have stayed in the Assemblies of God. But I needed more. A good book for those not familiar with liturgical worship and its benefits is: Evangelical is Not Enough: Worship of God in Liturgy and Sacrament by Thomas Howard.

I went to two different Bible colleges – a couple years at one and a semester at the other.

Me too. I earned a B. A. in Religious Education at an Assemblies of God Bible college back in the day.

I feel it’s important for a person to know What they believe and Why.

Absolutely. I couldn’t rest until I did. And when I did, I couldn’t be satisfied, which is why I had to look further. What set me on my path was the writings, first of C. S. Lewis, and then further, those of J. R. R. Tolkien. Lewis led me out of the Assemblies of God and back to the Episcopal Church and Tolkien, in part, guided me to the Catholic Church. It was quite the journey, as you can imagine.

 

[jmcrae]

I am not disagreeing with this definition. As I wrote, God is bound to uphold his part of the new covenant sealed with Christ’s blood.

It also has to be borne in mind that that Covenant is the Holy Catholic Church. Jesus wasn’t just sitting around for thirty three years waiting to be crucified for our sins - no. He was establishing His Church on the foundation of the Apostles, especially Simon, whom He named specifically, “A Rock” (Peter).

He said, “Thou art A Rock, and upon this Rock I will build My Church.”

But, this does not mean that we cannot lose our salvation. Clearly, we can–if we don’t cooperate with God in keeping it. We are free, at any point in our lives to turn our backs on God and lose our salvation. This is why Jesus established the sacraments–to aid us in keeping our part of the new covenant. God is always faithful, it is we who are not.

Not allowing non-Catholics into one’s home may have been a cultural thing because the Church teaches nothing of the kind. Just the opposite, we are to be welcoming and hospitable. Perhaps she wouldn’t have door-to-door evangelizers in her home, which is perfectly fine because no one is obliged to open hid door to anyone who comes with the purpose of proselytizing them. Otherwise, this mystifies me.

Me, too. I am the only Catholic in my family, so my home is full of non-Catholics all the time.

It all depends on what you mean by sharing. When Catholics gather for the Mass we are engaging in corporate worship, not a Bible study or fellowship, but we have those at their appropriate time and places.

They probably didn’t do a lot of “sharing” at the Temple during Passover, either; the time for that was when they were traveling to and from Jerusalem, and when they were gathered for prayer.

The Catholic Mass is the New Testament’s Passover celebration.