Whats it like to be born again?

[jmcrae]

I feel it’s important for a person to know What they believe and Why.

I agree completely, which is why I always try to ensure that people coming to my classes for instruction take the time they need to fully investigate everything before making a commitment to the Catholic Church. It’s essential that they know what they’re getting into ahead of time, rather than wait until after they have made their vows to God before finding out about something that they would find it difficult to live with.

Being a Catholic is not for those looking for an easy way of life, but Jesus warned us that the gate is narrow and the path is difficult.

 

[JTD_Eagle1]

catholicbible101.com/bornagain.htm
Here is a good link to read about what being born again means.
Jesus says unless one is born of the water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. He then refers to this as being born again. A reference to being baptized.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady

The point I was making is, as soon as you include anything other than faith (whether if is “hope” or “confessing with your lips” [as you brought up], or “repentance” or anything else), it is not faith ALONE anymore.

Now if you want to define “faith” that way and say: “Well the way I define “faith” includes hope, repentance, “obedience” (as St. Paul explicitly says), etc. . . .

I actually have no qualms with that. St. Paul explicitly includes “obedience” for example.

I think the Church would even have said that back in the days of the Reformation too!

The issue I have is when they define “Faith” in such wise as to mean nothing else is required.

As a matter of fact, let’s look at the sola fide anathema at Trent to see just how the Church worded their condemnation of sola fide (bold and ul will be mine).

Council of Trent Sixth Session - CANON IX If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

(A thank you to Jimmy Akin for bringing this point to my attention in his book The Salvation Controversy which can be found here)

But for people who DON’T define “faith” as including “obedience” (again as St. Paul did), “repentance”, “hope”, “CHARITY”, etc. then I have a hard time understanding how they can try to assert they believe in the Bible and yet proclaim people are justified by faith ALONE.

Because to do that, you have to ADD to the Bible the word “alone” when it is not there, and ignore all the other verses about salvation. Instead of affirming ALL the Holy Spirit inspired verses.

But I want to try to define better the apparent “self-contradiction of those Catholics” and WHY “those Catholics” affirm you cannot be justified by works yet you’ve got to do works.

The answer to this is grace, God at WORK IN YOU. This is a grace. We do not deserve God to WORK in us but He does and it counts concerning “salvation”. St. Paul says so.

Remember a “self-contradiction” means a “contradiction in the SAME SENSE”.

That’s WHY it is NOT a self contradiction for Catholics.

Because the “works” that do not save, are our mere “works” apart from grace. Our mere “works” before we had the Holy Spirit. Our mere “works” on our own.

But with saving “works” it is different. With saving works, it is “grace” or “grace works” or Jesus’ work IN US (I’ll explain later).

It is Jesus Christ’s WORK IN YOU. And St. Paul says specifically that it has to do with “salvation”.

That’s one of many reasons WHY there is no contradiction either when St. Paul teaches what he does and St. James mentions the only time in Scripture the phrase “sola fide” only James explicitly states, we are NOT justified by sola fide (or faith alone).

But I do not want to appeal to James here. I want to focus on St. Paul (perhaps with some elements of the Gospels).

So in the next post (possibly tomorrow) I will try to illustrate more explicitly (from St. Paul) Jesus’ WORK in us.

The other thing I want to be absolutely clear on, is that “faith” IS NECESSARY for justification.

Catholics affirm we are justified by faith.

If you have had any Baptist teachings the way I did growing up (my attending Baptist Sunday School AND Catholic teachings as well as my Father coming from anti-Catholic Wisconsin Synod Lutherans and Presbyterians), you will likely NEVER be told this truth (that Catholics affirm Justification by faith). Why this trying to fool their own Protestant congregants on this issue or just being ignorant of the Catholic teachings, I just am not sure.

My Dad was quite irritated when he found out the truth about Catholics not being all the terrible things he was told growing up (“WHY did they not tell me this?”). Dad then became Catholic (and warned me of the anti-Catholic shenanigans out there). May he rest in peace.

 

[Cathoholic]

A Few Last Words On Supernatural Hope

I want to look at God at work in us but before I do, I want to say a couple of things about Supernatural Hope.

Then I want to try to show the difference between a natural faith (which cannot save us) and a SUPERNATURAL faith, which is utterly necessary.

We need SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity that Christ wants to give us.

So first of all, don’t underestimate the gift of supernatural “hope” as a supernatural virtue. Mortal sins against hope can occur if persisted in. Presumption and despair are two ways of rejecting supernatural hope.

Presumption and Despair

Presumption = “I can’t lose my salvation. I am saved and don’t NEED to continue to hope to get to Heaven.” You PRESUME you are going to Heaven no matter what.

The Pharisees used this line proverbially speaking for example. They basically said; “Because we are Pharisees and ‘children of Abraham’ we can’t be lost, so no need to hope”. The Pharisees thought they had eternal security.

MATTHEW 3:7-10 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit that befits repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

(Jesus called the Pharisees out on this and other things too later)

Despair = “I am so bad I just don’t deserve to go to Heaven so I am not even going to ask God to get me there.”

But NOBODY DESERVES to go to Heaven. Yet just because we “don’t deserve” it, does not mean with God’s grace, the Beatific Vision cannot be received with the grace of God.

Recall ALL the Apostles (not just St. Peter) fled in the Garden of Gethsemane.

MATTHEW 26:56b-57 Then all the disciples forsook him and fled. 57 Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered.

Yet it is Judas who the Gospels seem to single out as having despair and persisting in it.

It was Judas who committed the sin of despair. Judas apparently had faith at least for awhile (he was described as a “disciple” and “one of the twelve”).

Judas apparently did some good works too such as when the Apostles returned they talked about seeing Satan fall like lightning.

Judas even went back to the Pharisees in repentance and admonished them and gave them their silver back.

MATTHEW 27:3-5 3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

Yet it would have been better off if Judas had not been born (see Matt. 26:24 Mark 14:21). This does not sound like a Heavenly destination for Judas. Judas rejected “hope”. The supernatural “hope” we are offered in Christ. The Roman Catechism specifically talks about Judas’ despair.

ROMAN CATECHISM Others, on the contrary, give themselves to such melancholy and grief, as utterly to abandon all hope of salvation. Such, perhaps, was the condition of Cain when he exclaimed: My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon. Such certainly was the condition of Judas, who, repenting, hanged himself, and thus lost soul and body.

Hope is a necessary Supernatural Virtue. That’s why as we have seen earlier, St. Paul can say:

ROMANS 8:24a 24 For in this hope we were saved.

We could look at other teachings on hope but let’s go on to a natural faith (which is NOT saving), vrs a supernatural faith (which is utterly necessary for salvation).

We need Supernatural faith, hope, and charity.

But what do these have to do with being “born again”? See the CCC posts I put up earlier. The Catechism explicitly states this relationship.

 

[crochet_lady]

Della

One of the things that has frustrated me with Baptist churches in the last few years is the addition of a ‘greet your neighbor’ time during the church service. To Me – there is time Before the service – before and after Sunday school, etc. It would be okay to take a moment to greet your neighbor sitting by you – but it’s a Big time of those sitting all around you Plus going up and down the isles shaking hands with people or even going across the other side of the auditorium to do so. And it’s not like people haven’t already been greeting each other in the kitchen while getting coffee or in the ladies’ room - out in the hall - ways. It takes place while the choir is taking their places – or even it there Isn’t any choir. It’s taking away from the specialness of a church service – the message being presented next.
I Have had opportunity to be in a Catholic church. Have been impressed with the Quietness in the sanctuary. I do wish Baptist churches were quieter – more serious worship.
And I Have taken part in two Catholic Bible studies in an effort to get to know the ladies in the community. One group was going through the book of Luke – but they started with saying the Rosary. I talked with the leader and said I didn’t feel comfortable with That part and he said, fine, just come for the study part. So I did. It was interesting – afterwards I’d ask a few questions – was curious about their beliefs. But the more I learned about Them, the more I was convinced within my heart that I Didn’t agree with Them.
The other group was bigger – we were going through Beth Moor’es Revelation study. That was a very ‘protestant’ group. Other than talking about the events coming up at their Catholic church - which were a lot – there were none of the Catholic church ‘trimmings’ – no crossing themselves before or after their prayer time. No “Hail Mary’s” – there was a prayer request time and a lady led in the prayer. I would have thought I was in a Baptist church study group. Except that - again- there were only 3 of us from Outside the church. They were cordial enough – but most of them already know each other and had their own groups already. Come to find out – the group had been meeting for about 5 year – unless a person was involved with the Catholic church you’d have no way of knowing about it. I’d only found out about it through another pastor in the area who’s group I was with for a while was trying to join in with it.
I guess I’ve just wondered Why there has been such a schizm between Catholic church beliefs and other groups. But then again – there Was the Reformation – the various protestant groups came out of That. And all of us with the Same Bible – God’s Word.
This Is an open forum and I’m basically rambling. Sorry about that. I’ve just finding that your background is interesting. I married into a large Methodist family – 3 of whom married into the Catholic church.

 

[Della]

Della

One of the things that has frustrated me with Baptist churches in the last few years is the addition of a ‘greet your neighbor’ time during the church service. To Me – there is time Before the service – before and after Sunday school, etc. It would be okay to take a moment to greet your neighbor sitting by you – but it’s a Big time of those sitting all around you Plus going up and down the isles shaking hands with people or even going across the other side of the auditorium to do so. And it’s not like people haven’t already been greeting each other in the kitchen while getting coffee or in the ladies’ room - out in the hall - ways. It takes place while the choir is taking their places – or even it there Isn’t any choir. It’s taking away from the specialness of a church service – the message being presented next.
I Have had opportunity to be in a Catholic church. Have been impressed with the Quietness in the sanctuary. I do wish Baptist churches were quieter – more serious worship.

Part of the Mass is the offering of peace to one another. Usually this is a simple handshake and a “Peace be with you” to those immediately around you and then the Mass goes on. Some of our parishes have taken to doing very much like you described in an effort to be “welcoming.” But I agree with you. That sort of thing belongs outside the service/liturgy in the fellowship hall. :yup:

And I Have taken part in two Catholic Bible studies in an effort to get to know the ladies in the community. One group was going through the book of Luke – but they started with saying the Rosary. I talked with the leader and said I didn’t feel comfortable with That part and he said, fine, just come for the study part. So I did.

It’s only natural that you wouldn’t feel comfortable with prayers with which you are unfamiliar and which you have probably been taught to believe are worshiping Mary. But, that’s not what the rosary is. The first part quotes two verses from the Gospel of Luke. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” is Lk. 1:28. It is the Archangel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary. And, “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb” is Lk. 1:42. We recite these words to remind us of the Incarnation of Jesus, our Redeemer and Savior, so really the prayer is more about him than about his mother. The second part of the rosary is asking Mary to pray for us. We believe in the Communion of Saints for Jesus told us, and other Bible references tell us, that the dead are not dead but alive with God. We believe in the intercession of the saints in heaven because we are all one body in Christ not separate, but one, even in death. It is the Holy Spirit who gives the saints the ability to hear our prayers and to intercede for us, so it all goes back to God and his grace.

It was interesting – afterwards I’d ask a few questions – was curious about their beliefs. But the more I learned about Them, the more I was convinced within my heart that I Didn’t agree with Them.

Well, apologetics isn’t everyone’s forte. Not all Catholics, not even necessarily priests, are trained to answer questions coming from outside their own experience/spirituality. I think the great rise in apologetics over the last generation has come about because through converts who came from Protestant backgrounds, discovered the truths of the Catholic faith, and so can articulate them to other Protestants better than many of our cradle Catholics can.

The other group was bigger – we were going through Beth Moor’es Revelation study. That was a very ‘protestant’ group. Other than talking about the events coming up at their Catholic church - which were a lot – there were none of the Catholic church ‘trimmings’ – no crossing themselves before or after their prayer time. No “Hail Mary’s” – there was a prayer request time and a lady led in the prayer. I would have thought I was in a Baptist church study group.

I imagine they were trying to be ecumenical, but really it doesn’t really work, does it? No Catholic should be ashamed of the sign of the cross. After all, Jesus died upon the cross–it was the symbol used in the early Church by which Christians identified themselves to one another. What could be wrong about signing oneself with the symbol of our redemption? And lay people can lead prayers. Even the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the daily prayer of the Church, is often led by a layperson. I think you would like the LOTH. It’s reciting 3 Psalms, one reading, one Gospel passage, and prayers. There is an “office” for every 3 hours of the day, but most people pray Morning and Evening Prayer. It takes one through the history of the Church, and thus Christianity, by celebrating the Church seasons, such as Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, and Ordinary Time, as well as feast days and other such celebrations. It grounds one in prayer and makes one’s own prayers more scriptural and solid.

continued next post…

 

[Della]

Except that - again- there were only 3 of us from Outside the church. They were cordial enough – but most of them already know each other and had their own groups already. Come to find out – the group had been meeting for about 5 year – unless a person was involved with the Catholic church you’d have no way of knowing about it. I’d only found out about it through another pastor in the area who’s group I was with for a while was trying to join in with it.

Groups that have an existing core group can be insular no matter where they are. And if you haven’t the same background and understanding of theology and Scripture, it can be difficult to get on in such a group. Better to learn about Catholicism before trying to fit into such a Bible group, I think.

I guess I’ve just wondered Why there has been such a schizm between Catholic church beliefs and other groups. But then again – there Was the Reformation – the various protestant groups came out of That. And all of us with the Same Bible – God’s Word.

A lot of people have the impression that the early Church had no difficulties–that everyone agreed about everything and all was “tea and skittles.” But, that’s simply not the case. Heresies and schisms started right away. The First Council of Jerusalem met to deal with one such difficulties. The Apostles met, discussed it, prayed, consulted Scripture and then decided on a course of action. All Church councils down through the ages met to deal with heresies and difficulties as they arose. The Reformation came at a time when the old Empire was breaking up and nationalism was coming to the fore. The printing press was invented, which made it possible for just about anyone to publish whatever they wanted. More people were learning to read and write–due to the Church starting schools for poor children. It’s not that all of a sudden God revealed “new” truths to people who disagreed with established theology, it’s only that it was more readily available, and nations backed those dissenting in order to grab power from the Empire. Many dioceses had become corrupt in how they dealt with money and other issues, and just as it is today, it was hard to bring them into line when they could simply appeal to other authorities with arms to back them up. It was very complicated, but the end result was the dropping off many people from the Church. I used to think it was a good thing until I understood the damage done and the repercussions down to this day. People don’t know who is right or what is right anymore. Churches that once held to marriage between a man and a woman now openly support gay marriage. Contraception was abhorred by all Christian bodies until 1930, when the Anglican Church decide it was all right, and then the sexual revolution came about…and I am rambling now. And all because every man wanted to follow his own way while using the Bible as an excuse. It hasn’t led to a happy state of affairs for any of us.

This Is an open forum and I’m basically rambling. Sorry about that. I’ve just finding that your background is interesting. I married into a large Methodist family – 3 of whom married into the Catholic church.

Yes, I had what I call a “checkered” religious background. I’ve been through a lot in my 65 years. I could write a book, parts of which no one would believe–they’d think I was making things up. God leads us as we are open to being led. Needing to know and live by the truth is what has spurred me on even when I was most lost and confused. It’s God’s grace that led me into his Church. I have no other explanation for it.

 

[Cathoholic]

But the more I learned about Them (the Catholics), the more I was convinced within my heart that I Didn’t agree with Them.

Absolutely fair enough crochet lady.

No one is trying to get you to be Catholic here.

Nobody should ever become Catholic until there is that interior aspect fulfilled that only God can give to that person.

Someone on this forum once said something to the effect: “Cults are easy to get into and hard to get out of. The Catholic Church is hard to get into and easy to get out of.”
This is a partial truth (once someone leaves, a part of the Church always remains in their hearts) and is an oversimplified statement, but it has a lot of truth to it too.

Back in 1776 by a gift of God, America attained a freedom that we did not have before that. That’s a little mnemonic (I hope you don’t mind). Now let’s look at another 1776 (CCC 1776) and an interior freedom.

CCC 1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

But the more I learned about Them (the Catholics), the more I was convinced within my heart that I Didn’t agree with Them.

As I said, fair enough.

My only caution is, before you write off your being convinced or not of “the Catholic faith”, . . . make SURE you know what the Catholics REALLY teach and what they don’t teach (as Della said, there are even undercatechized Priests).

Make sure you are not writing off something that is NOT the CATHOLIC FAITH while wrongly thinking it is labeled as “CATHOLIC ”.

That was the issue my Dad had.

Sometimes “Catholic” Bible study groups sadly and wrongly incorporate a hodge-podge of personal beliefs that may distort Catholicism grotesquely.

the (“Catholic”) group had been meeting for about 5 year – unless a person was involved with the Catholic church you’d have no way of knowing about it

Likewise, I have seen some bizarre things put forth in Protestant Bible studies too that I know my Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant friends would cringe at when hearing. One of my Evangelical Free Minister friends and I were watching an anti-Catholic video (he was challenging me with it) and he said “You know I’d hate to see what my congregation would say to this question if they were asked by a camera man the same question”.

You will see all sorts of shenanigans try to be passed of as “Catholicism”. Beware!

I will put up my post on a natural vrs. a supernatural faith later.

 

[Goya]

…

***Moving and powerful as your testimony is, your interpretation seems to be taken primarily from the human traditions of evangelical Protestantism rather than from God’s Word.

---

Edwin

 

[Cathoholic]

There is a Natural Faith and a SUPERNATURAL Faith. We NEED Supernatural Faith.

“Supernatural” in this case just means a very special gift from God through the work of Jesus Christ that otherwise would not be available. Like the “supernatural virtues” of faith, hope, and charity.

There exists NATURAL faith, hope, and charity. Everybody has these available to them.

There exists also a SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity. These gifts are given to those who are “born again” (“baptized” or “born of water and the Spirit”) which is also a grace.

Sometimes our Protestant friends think of “faith” as a commodity that they can give to God (not all but some Protestants). They will sometimes say things like: “I give God MY faith, and He gives me eternal life.”

That is a partial truth (there is a human element to all of this but a supernatural faith goes beyond that human element).

Thankfully many Protestants do recognize their supernatural faith as a special gift from God and not something they have merely in a natural sense.

Faith is a special gift.

1st CORINTHIANS 4:7 7 For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?

JOHN 3:27 27 John answered, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven.

Supernatural faith is a grace from God, and is a gift.

Faith is a grace

CCC 153a When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him . . .

All of the graces we receive from God we are to cooperate with. This includes the grace of faith.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 “Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.”

That’s why the Catechism says faith is ALSO an act of cooperation with God (as I said, Protestants who see their faith as “their” faith are partially correct). . .

**Faith is a human act **

CCC 154a Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. . . .

So for us as adults, a mere natural belief is necessary . . . but a mere natural belief is not enough.

We need to have that natural belief “supernaturalized” by Jesus’ GIFT of FAITH which Jesus does NOT give yet indiscriminately in John 2 to people who believed at least in some sense in Jesus. They “believed in his name” in John 2 (as seen below).

JOHN 2:23-25 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did; 24 but Jesus did not trust himself to them, 25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.

And the “trust” in verse 24 is literally “faith”. Let’s re-read it with the literal “faith” put in to give you an illustration of a natural “belief” and supernatural faith (which was not given at this time in John 2) . . . .

JOHN 2:23-25 (with literal “faith” in v 24 described above) 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did; 24 but Jesus did not FAITH himself to them, 25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.

Humanity will have the gift of faith available later but not yet in John 2. At this point mankind as a whole was not yet ready. They/We needed Jesus’ saving work on Calvary and this supernatural faith will be tied to His Resurrection.

CCC 994a But there is more. Jesus links faith in the resurrection to his own person: "I am the Resurrection and the life."544 . . .

But notice there is in the Gospels a differentiating between . . .

. . . a natural faith (“many believed in his name”) . . . .

. . . and a supernatural faith (“but Jesus did not FAITH himself to them”).

Once we see our supernatural faith as God’s special grace, a special gift within us (and not something we work up to merely on our own), it will be easier to see the supernaturalization of our “works” and “hope” too.

This salvation all stems from the work and merit of Jesus Christ. Our salvation is a grace.

The question is HOW does that saving grace work out?

Is it through a mere natural faith? No. If it were, we would in a sense be saving ourselves.

Is it through a supernatural faith? Yes. God’s gift of supernatural faith infused in us.

Is it through a mere natural charity? No. If it were, we would in a sense be saving ourselves with our mere works.

Is it through a supernatural charity? Yes. God’s gift of supernatural charity infused in us. God working in us and through us (that’s one reason WHY we don’t/can’t save ourselves by our mere “works” by the way).

OK. Where in the Bible is it that God works in us and through us and even if He does, where is it in the Bible that it even matters to our salvation?

This I will post later. Perhaps tomorrow.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Please remain on topic.

 

[fhansen]

jesus says we must be born again what exactly does it fell like to be born again

For most a life-long sometimes grueling process of conception, gestation, and labor-then full birth into new life. It only begins at baptism. Once in awhile a warm fuzzy feeling maybe. But all worth it.

 

[Cathoholic]

Recall when we are born of water and the Spirit is when we were “born again” (John 3:3,5)

The Catholic Church teaches this being “born again” (baptism) is directly associated with the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity (“love”).

CCC 1266a The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit . . . .

This grace of being born again acts as the source of new life in Christ from which that faith, hope, and charity spring forth.

CCC 1254b . . . . Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

This GRACE is God at WORK IN YOU. St. Augustine put it this way . . . .

“You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.”

When we get born again we are strengthened to do things we otherwise could not do.

PHILIPPIANS 4:13 13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

But we cannot take credit for it ourselves. It is God’s WORK (notice it is not our mere works) IN us.

GALATIANS 2:20a 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; . . .

But notice there are meaningful results to “Christ who lives in me”. That’s why we LIVE by faith. Notice just as St. Paul talked in Romans about the “obedience” of faith, St. Paul here in Galatians 2, just matter of factly assumes you KNOW a saving faith necessarily WORKS. That’s WHY he LIVES by faith.

GALATIANS 2:20 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We see again these fruits of being “born again” in Ephesians 2. Jesus is at WORK IN US. This is grace.

EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, . . .

Now let’s go to 2nd Corinthians 6:1-2 (the context concerns us and Christ as per 2nd Cor. 5:20-21). Here in 2nd Corinthians 6:1-2 we see we need to WORK TOGETHER with Christ and if we refuse to do this, we can “accept the grace of God in vain”.

What grace?

The grace we received when we were “Born again” that now allows us to WORK “together with him (Christ)” that’s what grace.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1-2 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. 2 For he says, “At the acceptable time I have listened to you, and helped you on the day of salvation.” Behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

But with this grace you received at Baptism (when you were born again) might just look like mere “works” on the outside (it’s in a sense, “hidden”).

CCC 1003a United with Christ by Baptism, believers already truly participate in the heavenly life of the risen Christ, but this life remains “hidden with Christ in God.” . . .

These graces we receive when we were born again (born of water and the Spirit) allows us to share or participate (or “koinonia”) in the divine life of GOD. We really are children (by adoption) of God!

CCC 1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism . . . .

The Catechism and the Bible put this whole concept of sharing in the Divine nature (by adoption to be sure) this way . . . .

2nd PETER 1:3-4 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

CCC 1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte
“a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

This is WHY the Church way back in the 300’s A.D. talked about this quite matter of factly (it wasn’t new teaching then and it isn’t new teaching now) . . . .

St. Athanasius “For he who repents ceases indeed from sinning, but he still has on him the scars of his wounds; whereas he who is baptized, puts off the old man, being born again by the grace of the Spirit.”

• Athanasius, Ep. iv. ad Serap., c. AD 296-373.

That’s WHY these “works” that we do after we enter the Christian life (after we are “born again”) are not the same as “works” we do before we are “born again”.

It is God Himself who is now doing the “works” in us (with our cooperation to be sure).

But does it have to do with our salvation too? Yes. Let’s go on for that . . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

We need to allow God to WORK in us (it is necessary).

That’s the whole point crochet lady of Ephesians 2:8-9 that you brought up earlier. That’s WHY St. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:10 (a verse that my Protestant friends always seem to neglect when quoting Ephesians 2) tells us WHY we were created.

And WHY were we created? Fortunately St. Paul tells us.

EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This is WHY we as kids in Bible school were never taught to memorize Ephesians 2:10. We were heavily urged to memorize Ephesians 2:8-9, but it always stopped with verse 9 didn’t it?

But we want a FULL GOSPEL including ALL the other verses (i.e. Eph. 2:10) we ignored as kids in our Bible sword drills, Young Life Groups, or other now newer Bible memorizing ministries (i.e. Awana) or whatever.

Q: But concerning “WORKS” in Ephesians 2:10, St. Paul says we “should” do these works. Does that mean . . .

• We “should” do these works but we don’t HAVE TO for our salvation?. . . . OR . . .
• We “should” do these works AND we HAVE TO for our salvation?

Fortunately St. Paul answers this question too.

PHILIPPIANS 2:12 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; . . .

But St. Paul!!! How in the world could we mere humans EVER WORK out our salvation?

Thankfully St. Paul tells us HOW in the very next verse . . . (Because God is AT WORK IN YOU).

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This being able to “work” and having a saving “faith” and a saving “hope” was infused into us when we were “Born again”.

CCC 1813a The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. . . .

And these “works” that Jesus does in us with our cooperation (2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1) is “pleasing” to the Father.

HEBREWS 13:20a, 21 20a “Now may the God of peace . . . . 21 equip you with everything good that you may do His will, working in you that which is pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And the author of Hebrews does not see this as a mere “optional” item . . . .

HEBREWS 5:9 9 and being made perfect he (Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Would you say we are saved by the word of God? Yes. Do you realize that word of God is AT WORK in you?

1st THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

This is WHY in Romans, St. Paul is NOT doing away with all “law”.

Go back and re-read Romans and see how “the law” St. Paul is specifically talking about that is not salvific; the law that cannot save . . . . is law (Torah) done “in the flesh” such as Old Covenant circumcision which could NOT save us.

Yet elsewhere in that same letter to the Romans, there remains a law we are held to. But people in the flesh cannot see this.

ROMANS 8:7-9b 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. . . .

And we received this Spirit when we were “born of water and the Spirit” or “born again”.

And St. Paul elsewhere even relates all of this to being born again or as he talks about being a new creation.

GALATIANS 6:15 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Objection: But being a “new creation” has nothing to do with “keeping the commandments of God”.

Answer: St. Paul seem to think it does.

1st CORINTHIANS 7:19 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

St. Paul says the same thing in 1st Corinthians associating this with faith WORKING through love (“love” or “charity”. That’s one of the three SUPERNATURAL virtues faith, hope, charity).

GALATIANS 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Notice faith WORKING through love counts for something according to St. Paul.

Objection: Well being born again and putting on Christ has nothing to do with Baptism.

Answer: Again, that is NOT how St. Paul sees it.

GALATIANS 3:27 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Cathoholic]

If St. Paul believed in Justification by faith alone he should have said so in 1st Corinthians 13:13 (which incidentally is read at many weddings).

First let’s look at what St. Paul doesn’t say . . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 (Phantom Verse) 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is faith. Because after all what gift could be greater than the gift that leads to salvation. And since we are justified by faith alone, “faith” is the greatest of these three gifts.

But St. Paul doesn’t say that. Here is what St. Paul and the Holy Spirit really teaches (and it is bedrock Catholicism) . . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 13:13 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Jesus says if you love me, you will “keep my commandments” (John 14:15 and John 15:14).

And we receive these gifts of faith, hope, and love THROUGH the work of Jesus Christ when we are “born again”, or when we are “born of water and the Spirit” or when we are “Baptized”.

Abraham and sola fide? (let’s do that elsewhere out of respect for the moderator)

I was going to illustrate why the Abraham issue cannot possibly be teaching Justification by faith alone.

But out of respect for the moderator’s admonition I think it better you (or I) begin a different thread on this Abraham topic (so I won’t develop it here).

But in a secondary sense, even the Abraham issue concerns being “born again” as it will be closely associated with “circumcision”.

In Colossians 2, we are told to put on the circumcision of Christ, we are told to put on “Baptism”. Circumcision is a prefigurement or foreshadowing of being “born again” or “being born of water and spirit” or having admittance into the Covenant of God (just like “circumcision was associated with Covenant communion in a shadow sense—see Genesis 17:14 on your own if you are interested in seeing this Covenant association).

But again as per the moderator’s suggestion I will not develop that here.

This is all related to being “born again” and it explains WHY St. Paul tells us about our works in and of themselves not being good enough, yet “God renders to every man according to his works” and “it is not the hearers of the law who will be justified but the doers of the law” (Romans 2:6 and 2:13).

 

[crochet_lady]

Faith – see Hebrews 11:1 " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, vs 3 “by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”
And the chapter continues … FAITH. For by Grace we are saved through faith…

 

[jmcrae]

“By grace” - yes!

Which today comes to us through the Sacraments of Christ’s Holy Church, since we can’t literally be present at the foot of the Cross to be washed by the blood and water pouring from the heart of Christ.

 

[fred_conty]

Faith – see Hebrews 11:1 " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, vs 3 “by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”
And the chapter continues … FAITH. For by Grace we are saved through faith…

Jesus said about 10 things that we must do or believe if we are to be saved. But one of the problems about reading just the bible is that only one or the other verse is selected and presented as the ONLY thing necessary. So sometimes picking out one little verse will then ignore the other 9 things that he also said were necessary.

For instance, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you cannot have life in you.”
Yet, this verse is conveniently overlooked or changed in meaning to suit one’s taste’s.

Or “unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Yet some look past this verse as non important and substitute their own verse as,
“I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and saviour”.

Just something to think about.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Cathoholic]

Hebrews 11:1 is a great verse to bring up crochet lady. Why? Because it illustrates exactly what I was saying earlier.

HEBREWS 11:1 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Notice this saving faith has “hope” included. There is more to faith than an interior assent on the part of the believer.

That was exactly my point about Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26 too where St. Paul also talks about the “obedience” of faith. Keep that in mind when you read about “faith” in Romans.

ROMANS 1:5 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, . . .

A saving faith MUST have hope and love (or charity).

As Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”.

We know Hebrews 11:1 can’t possibly be talking about faith “alone” not just because it includes “hope”, but because just 3 or 4 verses earlier from Hebrews 11:1 it ALSO says we have NEED of “endurance” (all in the same context).

Would you say we have NEED of endurance? (If so, why? The answer is seen in Heb. 10:36b)

If we do need “endurance”, then it is not faith “alone” that fulfills our “needs” is it?

The context of Hebrews 11:1 also teaches we must LIVE by faith (actions are necessary).

Would you say it is necessary that we LIVE by faith? If we don’t LIVE by faith, does the soul of the Lord take pleasure in us anyway?

HEBREWS 10:36-38 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. 37 “For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry; 38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

If we must LIVE by faith, then it is not justification by faith “alone” unless as I said, you include a broad meaning of “faith” which would be fine too (but that will not fit into the typical Protestant theology tradition).

And lastly Hebrews 11:1 never says faith “alone” (the context as we saw, says quite the opposite).

So these works are necessary in some sense (a grace sense).

This need is especially evident when Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and Nicodemus replies, “how” can I be born again?

And Jesus really means what He said to Nicodemus! ** “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”.**

Now someone might object and ask, “how can they be expected to “work” by getting Baptism, before they get the supernatural virtues received in Baptism?

Grace there too.

The answer to this would concern God’s prevenient grace but I won’t get into that in this thread as it would bring us off topic concerning being “born again.” But if you are interested in the topic of God’s prevenient grace, I have posted about it on a different thread elsewhere on this forum (here, here, and here)

But on this thread we CAN use an example of Baptizing (being “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit”).

Think John 4:1-2. Jesus was Baptizing. The verses said so. But the same verses also said Jesus did not Baptize.

How can this be? Is this a self-contradiction?

No (because it concerns different senses of the word Baptizing).

In some sense only the disciples baptized (they must have been doing the action physically).

But in another sense Jesus Baptized everybody (He was already working IN and through the Baptisms that the disciples were performing). Jesus was the Baptizer behind the Baptizers.

And St. John the Baptist prophesied this would occur didn’t he?

And WHO Baptizes today?

The Bishops, Priest, or Deacon (ordinarily), or the lay person (as an extraordinary minister of the Sacrament) carries out the action of Baptism today physically.

But in another sense, it is Jesus even today that still does the Baptizing! Jesus still Baptizes all who have Christian Baptism.

Jesus is the Baptizer behind the Baptizer today too. Jesus works IN and through the Baptisms that people today are performing, then Jesus keeps on working in and through the Christian even today—grace.

Likewise when we “work” in some sense we “work”.

But in another salvific sense (“salvation” as St. Paul says in Philippians 2:12), Jesus works in us too. That’s what all those verses from St. Paul was teaching about concerning God at work in us.

This all stems from the work of Jesus on Calvary to be sure, and also in Heaven on the throne to the Father (Revelation 5:5-6 and Revelation 5:12-14), but Jesus ALSO works here and now in and through you crochet lady! Thanks be to God!

Wow! What a heritage we as Christians have.

 

[tjones80]

jesus says we must be born again what exactly does it fell like to be born again

When I was a teenager I was led to believe that I must be born again and I was led in a pray to save me. I was told now I was part of God’s plan and I had a friend in Jesus. Nothing in my life changed and I found the experience empty. So I came back to the Catholic Church.