Whats it like to be born again?

[crochet_lady]

Hope 7 – Amen – to your post from the other day or so.

 

[Church_Militant]

Just because you two agree, doesn’t make it scriptural or correct doctrine…

 

[SeekerPaul]

Sorry, no, that’s not what the Pharisees did. What the Pharisees did was actually the opposite - they created man-made rules that provided “outs” so that people could avoid following God’s law. For example, they created the law of “korban” so that people could get out of the law (Honour thy father and thy mother) that says adult children are required to take care of their elderly parents. God commands us to take care of our elderly parents, but the Pharisees said, “No, that’s too hard. But if you pay Korban, we will let you kick your parents out, and you don’t have to put up with them any more.”
Jesus condemned them for that; not for following God’s law too strictly.

I am familiar with the sad korban incident in scripture… But, do you know of any other such “get-out-of-jail-free” examples? My impression is that in most - if not nearly all - cases Pharisees not only strictly adhered to Mosaic law but added many more of their own based on their interpretation (e.g. the Talmud). Loved the way Jesus accused them of “straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel”!

Those who repent of their sins and begin to follow God’s law, in its entirety.

Zacchaeus, for example, didn’t just “accept Jesus into his heart” and then continue on with business as usual. He gave up his lifestyle; he restored everything he had stolen four times over. Considering that the only way he got money was by theft, this means he emptied out his bank account, sold everything he had, let go all of his staff, and still remained in debt for three times that amount. Not only that, he gave up his job, which means that not only was he homeless, but he was also unemployed. Hardly “easy.”

Since, in those days it wasn’t possible to “follow God’s law, in its entirety,”. then who can be saved?! When his apostles asked Jesus that question, he answered “with God all things are possible.” I believe Jesus was looking forward to fulfilling the Father’s plan by going to the cross.

I think you’re giving Zaccheus a bad rap… He may have skimmed off the top of his tax receipts, but I don’t know how you can say “the only way he got money was by theft.” So, He didn’t have to empty his bank account, although he did give up “half his possessions.” (Mat 19:8)
That said, did you notice how Jesus joyfully exclaimed, “Today salvation has come to this house…!” even though he said nothing about Zaccheus having to be baptized besides?
In fact, except at the “great commission” - where he says “believe and be baptized” - does Jesus tell anyone they need to be baptized to be saved? On the contrary we know he said, “Thy faith has saved thee” in Luke 7:50 and 18:42. and “believe and be saved” in Luke 8:12. Furthermore John’s gospel goes to great length to emphasize the necessity of faith for salvation: just count the number of 'believe’s!

Again, there is no easy believin’ happening here. These people are also making radical changes to their lives, and following a stricter law than they had before. Bear in mind that this is the generation that Nero fed to the lions.

Reread the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5 through 7) - Jesus isn’t calling us to something easier than the Old Covenant Law, but something radically more challenging. Not only does He consider it a sin to kill, He considers it a sin to be angry with someone - even if you don’t actually kill them. Jesus tells us that it is still a sin to swear at people, and not only that, it is also a sin to call them a fool. Not only is it a sin to sleep with someone to whom you are not married, it is a sin to look at that person and lust after them.

You’re right, Jesus IS demanding more of his disciples. And he knew they would need the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to follow through. John (the Baptist) baptized with water (for repentence); Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33) - for salvation and power.

 

[SeekerPaul]

This just means that what you did doesn’t conform to what the New Testament actually teaches about baptism and the rebirth. You see it as (and have been errantly taught that) a merely symbolic confession/profession of faith, but that is definitely not what the Word of God says about it,

…Were you taught that baptism is a sacrament that washes away sins as this passage of the New Testament clearly tells us? If not then your belief and practice are unscriptural, are they not?

Please excuse a silly(?) question: If a pagan Joe Six-Pack walks in off the street and gets baptized, are his sins washed away?
I trust you will answer, "Of course not… Joe must first have repented and placed his faith in Jesus before there is grace available through the sacrament. In other words, Joe must have faith that only by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus can his sins be washed away. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph 2:8)

 

[Church_Militant]

Please excuse a silly(?) question: If a pagan Joe Six-Pack walks in off the street and gets baptized, are his sins washed away?

Certainly is a silly question. Catholic teaching is that it takes a metanoia that changes one for a whole life. (See Matthew 25:31-46)

Further…it’s a specious example because it wouldn’t happen. We Catholics take seriously the great commission in Matthew 28 which mandates that we "[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…"

I trust you will answer, "Of course not… Joe must first have repented and placed his faith in Jesus before there is grace available through the sacrament. In other words, Joe must have faith that only by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus can his sins be washed away. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph 2:8)

And here you immediately yank verses out of context and seek to use it as a case to support your own errant doctrine which conflicts with what the Word of God plainly teaches us as shown in these links.
How Is A Catholic Saved?
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

 

[hope_7]

There is a dog that stands at the feeding trough that barks and growels and keeps the hungry cattle away and he himself will not eat from the trough

 

[fhansen]

He (she) has been eating at the trough for 2 millennia, inviting anyone who wants to share in the feast…

 

[hope_7]

imadesomanymist:

I would love to share with you what it is like to be born again but because of the way things are going on this thread I do not think it a good place to do so. There are others here that can as well . Being born again is not baptism although baptism is an essentiantial part of salvation, I can show what it is by scripture and by experiance . I can really tell you what it is because I was born again in 1974 .

I am sure there are many here that will do their best to refute this and most everything that I would say denouncing me as false but that is because they have not experienced being born again for themselves and do not want anyone else to have or know about it. This greatly grieves me and I am sure grieves the heart of God and his Son Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose from the dead so that we might have this eternal life that God wants us all to have.

This thread should never have ended up here but instead it should be filled with real life stories of people telling how they came to receive Christ as their saviour and questions from those who were interested wanting to know more what it is like to be born again.

Time and time again I have tried to share about the things that God has done for me and wanting to know if catholics had recieved these things from God and what do they call it but very few have ever been able to or wanted to. I have been so misunderstood and many times when they answer they do not answer but just spout off what the pope says or someone else says . They can"t even say from their own experience.

 

[Della]

We Catholics don’t describe being “born again” as an experience, mainly because we were born again at our baptism, which for most of us happened when we were infants. I doubt most infants feel anything except getting wet.

We do have a deeply rich spiritual life, though. Our whole aim as Catholics is union with God. That was initiated at our baptism, but not completed. I doubt even Evangelicals would claim they have achieved full union with God in all things merely because they “accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior.”

Our sacramental life gives us all we need. What does that entail? Daily prayer, Bible reading/study, attending Mass (to worship God, hear his word proclaimed and to receive the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Our Lord), spiritual reading (the saints/documents of the Church), availing ourselves of the sacraments Christ established for our benefit, and service to others. This is the full life of committed Catholics.

As to feelings, we call those consolations and actually, they are great to have, but the more we receive of them the more we have to answer to God for them. “To whom much is given, much is required” as Our Lord told us. We also join our sufferings to those of Christ, as Jesus and St. Paul and the Apostles directed us to do. This gives them meaning and also gives them power to help others through the working of the Holy Spirit. And we do penance–not to be forgiven, we have confession for that, but to make up the temporal damage we did to ourselves, the Body of Christ, and the wider community by our poor witness and failing Christ who commanded us to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

This is what it means to be Catholic. This is the fruit of our baptism when we were born again into Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

I think you’re giving Zaccheus a bad rap… He may have skimmed off the top of his tax receipts, but I don’t know how you can say “the only way he got money was by theft.”

Tax collectors back then didn’t receive wages. What they lived on was whatever skimmings they could get from people over and above the amount due on their taxes.

 

[Cathoholic]

hope 7. You asked,

Can any of you describe this (being born again) from their own personal experiance ?

I assume I felt wet (I was 12 days old).

I am not trying to be funny here. There was a natural aspect (water) and a SUPERNATURAL aspect (reception of the Holy Spirit).

Once you reduce the validation of the reception of the Holy Spirit down to mere feelings or any other aspect of NATURE ALONE, then you are moving back into the natural realm instead of SUPERnature.

You also asked,

Can any of you tell what happened to them when they were born again ?

Yes. Dad for all practical purposes said, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”.

So by the prevenient moving grace of God working in my parents, and subsequently on the authority of my father, and NO IMPEDIMENT from me, . . . (this occurred) . . .

. . . . I had the Holy Spirit come and indwell in me in a special way on account of the work of Jesus Christ and infuse into me the gifts of supernatural FAITH, HOPE, and CHARITY even as a baby.

Could I demonstrate my gift of faith (etc.) as a baby? No.

Could I possess the gift of faith (etc.) as a baby? Yes.

Being “born” is the “entrance ramp” to the natural life.
Being “born again” or being “born of water and the Spirit” is the “entrance ramp” to the Christian life.

It is a beginning.

 

[crochet_lady]

Della

One of my questions would be ‘How would an infant be capable of believing Anything in their heart’ other than the fact that they are experiencing pain in their tummies and need feeding. I’m not trying to be sarcastic – a baby has a Lot of mental developing to do before being able to understand much of Anything. A child has to be taught right from wrong – a child’s Natural tendencies are to be grabbing toys Away from other kids or hitting other kids – they are Taught how to ‘play nicely’ . A person is Alive physically – but there is a Need for the 2nd Spiritual birth to take place – an older child has enough understanding to have God’s gift of salvation explained to them and for them to accept that gift from God.
And That was what was being explained to Nicodemus – Everyone is born From their mother’s womb – there is No choice in That. But Spiritual birth comes from a person’s choice to either accept or reject God’s gift of salvation.

Baptist churches – some of them – have a baby dedication service – the parents ‘dedicate’ themselves to bring up their child in God’s Word from early on. And to pray for their child’s salvation. To take every opportunity to teach God’s Word to them – the Holy Spirit works in the heart to show the person there need so they Can accept Him.

 

[fhansen]

Please excuse a silly(?) question: If a pagan Joe Six-Pack walks in off the street and gets baptized, are his sins washed away?
I trust you will answer, "Of course not… Joe must first have repented and placed his faith in Jesus before there is grace available through the sacrament. In other words, Joe must have faith that only by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus can his sins be washed away. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (Eph 2:8)

Yes, both/and, not either/or. But if we never hear of Jesus we can’t believe in Him. And if we never hear of His command to be baptized we won’t bother. God looks at and judges by the heart in the end, according to the grace given, considering our level of knowledge or ignorance. In His dealings with man the need for either condition: explicit faith or baptism, can be overridden.

 

[fhansen]

Again I have to state that being baptised and being born again are two distinct things.

When I was baptised I first stood before the church and confessed my faith in Christ I was standing beside the pastor of the church in water. After I had confessed that I believed in Jesus Christ that pastor then said the I baptise you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. He then pushed me backward and under the water and then lifted me back out by standing me back up and I walked out of the water. Needless to say I was compleately wet. This is what it was like to be baptised.

I notice that many keep saying that baptism is what saves us.

If I am understanding what many of you who are catholic are saying then what I have just described to you is a born again experiance.

I do not think that I am describing the experiance that the title to this thread is asking .

Do you who are talking about baptism think that I am answering the question that this thread is asking which is titled

WHATS IT LIKE TO BE BORN AGAIN?

What you probably mean is conversion, a turning away from the world and to God. Faith is presumably sufficient for one who never heard Jesus’ command to be baptized. But faith, alone, isn’t sufficient to guarantee eternal life anyway. Being born again involves a gestation period, not a one-time event, during which we remain turned to God, persevering in picking up our cross and following Jesus daily, remaining in Him, responding to grace as our justice actually grows; it involves change in us. Read the parable of the talents. The gestation period is over, our new life is fully birthed, after death when we meet the Just Judge and He tells us whether or not we did His will.

 

[Della]

Della

One of my questions would be ‘How would an infant be capable of believing Anything in their heart’ other than the fact that they are experiencing pain in their tummies and need feeding. I’m not trying to be sarcastic – a baby has a Lot of mental developing to do before being able to understand much of Anything. A child has to be taught right from wrong – a child’s Natural tendencies are to be grabbing toys Away from other kids or hitting other kids – they are Taught how to ‘play nicely’ . A person is Alive physically – but there is a Need for the 2nd Spiritual birth to take place – an older child has enough understanding to have God’s gift of salvation explained to them and for them to accept that gift from God.
And That was what was being explained to Nicodemus – Everyone is born From their mother’s womb – there is No choice in That. But Spiritual birth comes from a person’s choice to either accept or reject God’s gift of salvation.

Belief is not a requirement for baptism of infants and small children. Nowhere in Scripture is belief required for those who cannot understand what baptism is. Consider the severely mentally retarded person. Is he to be deprived of baptism because he is not capable of making a statement of faith? How is that fair to him when baptism is required for salvation? Remember, we have already established that baptism was commanded by Our Lord, and that the Apostles taught that by it we die with Christ and are reborn in Christ (this, not making a decision for Christ is being “born again”), and that baptism saves us. Adults and children old enough to understand must give their permission to be baptized, but even they need not make any statement of faith, only desire the sacrament. Asking alone shows intentions of living the Christian life.

Baptist churches – some of them – have a baby dedication service – the parents ‘dedicate’ themselves to bring up their child in God’s Word from early on. And to pray for their child’s salvation. To take every opportunity to teach God’s Word to them – the Holy Spirit works in the heart to show the person there need so they Can accept Him.

Dedication was an OT ritual that was fulfilled in baptism. Parents can promise anything they like, but they cannot be saved for their child. Baptism cleanses us of original sin and imbues us with the Holy Spirit, thus making it possible to be saved even if we sin after baptism. The other sacraments are meant to be the helps along the way to ensure our salvation, such as confirmation, in which the Holy Spirit indwells us, communion in which Christ himself enters us, and confession which again cleanses us of sin. Jesus provided all these and more for our benefit. Why deprive ourselves of what Jesus gave us for a watered down version in which we merely wish our children will accept Christ when they are older when they can have him when they are not yet old enough to reject him? Baptism is like an inoculation against sin since it marks us as God’s own. Mere dedication cannot do that. Baptism saves. Dedication does not.

 

[crochet_lady]

Church Militant

You commented 'Just because the two of you agree, doesn’t mean we’re correct" / that’s paraphrasing a bit. We were quoting Scripture and it Wasn’t being taken out of context. Just because we disagree with You – doesn’t make us wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

The context of the Scriptures is the teaching of the Apostles - therefore anything that contradicts the Apostles is “out of context”.

 

[Cathoholic]

This issue of “faith” in an infant keeps coming up again and again.

Recall that saving “faith” is a special GIFT that comes from the work of Jesus Christ. It is NOT something we work up to at a stadium, campfire, or altar-call or in some other situation.

I will summarize what I have posted elsewhere:

Faith, hope, and charity are graces from God that we receive when we are Baptized or “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit”.

CCC 1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

Faith, hope, and charity are infused graces as a pure gift from God.

BABIES CAN have faith!

Babies can possess faith, hope, and charity through Baptism (ordinary means).

Babies usually cannot display the faith they possess. Admittedly technically nobody can “display” faith but I think you know what I mean here (i.e. such as “show me your faith” - James 2).

In the Gospels there seems to be one exception to this “display” of faith of an infants’ though (on Palm Sunday) . . .

Hosanna to the Son of David!

MATTHEW 21:14-17 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple, and he healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant; 16 and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast brought perfect praise’?” 17 And leaving them, he went out of the city to Bethany and lodged there.

We don’t know for sure if these infants were Baptized (as Jesus and His disciples were already Baptizing—see John 4:1-2) or if these “sucklings” had their faith (that they apparently displayed) given via extraordinary means.

Incidentally, even though it is not recorded in Exodus, this event probably occurred after Moses and the Israelites crossed the Red Sea too and was probably a prefigurement of what occurred on Palm Sunday which is WHY the Pharisees in the hardness of their hearts were so irritated (this subject has fascinated me and I have done a whole study on this issue).

WISDOM 10:1, 18-21 1 Wisdom protected the first-formed father of the world, when he alone had been created; she delivered him from his transgression, . . . . 18 She brought them over the Red Sea, and led them through deep waters; 19 but she drowned their enemies, and cast them up from the depth of the sea. 20 Therefore the righteous plundered the ungodly; they sang hymns, O Lord, to thy holy name, and praised with one accord thy defending hand, 21 because **wisdom opened the mouth of **the dumb, and made the tongues of babes speak clearly.

CCC 403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

Again. This faith (and hope and charity) is a GIFT (or of God’s “gratuitousness”). We don’t work ourselves up to it.

CCC 1250b . . . . The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

When the CCC says . . . .

. . . . “The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth” . . . .

. . . . it is NOT to say that God cannot work and save babies outside of these “ordinary means”.

It IS to say this is what Jesus told us to do, so we like faithful servants OBEY HIM.

Jesus ultimately is the one baptizing people (as per John 4:1-2).

We ALSO understand that men CAN keep the children from coming to Jesus and Jesus tells men (His own Apostles) DON’T DO THIS (DON’T HINDER the children–notice adults CAN hinder sucklings from coming to Jesus even though they were brought to Jesus presumably by their parents)!

Mark 10:14 tells us this adults “hindering” the children caused Jesus to be “indignant”! It was very upsetting to Jesus. (See also Luke 18:15-17)

MATTHEW 19:13-15 13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people; 14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.

Recall that unless “one is born of water and the Spirit” he cannot even SEE the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yet these “children” (Greek = sucklings) “to such” . . . what? To such BELONGS the Kingdom of Heaven!

So if one NEEDS to be born of “water and the Spirit” AND sucklings BELONG the Kingdom of Heaven (but CAN ALSO BE HINDERED), than these same “sucklings” CAN be “born of water and the Spirit”!

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant

You commented 'Just because the two of you agree, doesn’t mean we’re correct" / that’s paraphrasing a bit. We were quoting Scripture and it Wasn’t being taken out of context. Just because we disagree with You – doesn’t make us wrong.

The context of the Scriptures is the teaching of the Apostles - therefore anything that contradicts the Apostles is “out of context”.

Precisely what I meant.

One of the reasons that so many n-Cs offer a different and deficient gospel message is that they remove their “way of salvation” verses from the context of the “full Gospel” (to borrow a non-Catholic term that is actually accurate in this case) as found in the whole New Testament. The Catholic Church has always offered what is the Gospel of the New Testament in its teaching and evangelism while very few of the modern n-Cs even get close.

See what I mean in these two blog articles of mine.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
How Is A Catholic Saved?

 

[inocente]

I have heard Protestant evangelical preachers say that baptism DOESNT save you. Wonder what they do with the passage in 1st or 2nd Peter which states that it does save you?

They take the bold step of actually finding and reading it.

“After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.” - 1 Pet 3

Peter is not claiming that being dunked will magically save anyone, he is saying that baptism represents an appeal to God.