Whats it like to be born again?

[inocente]

Feelings usually don’t come into it because being “born again” is a reference to water baptism, and since most people are baptized as infants or small children, it isn’t applicable to them that we know of.

Yea and verily, but nope.

*Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” - John 3*

Jesus connects water with flesh (being born) and spirit with Spirit (being born again).

He likens the Spirit to the wind. In Hebrew, Ruach is the wind, the breath, the Spirit of God. Jesus is saying God decides when and how we are born again (Pope Francis echoed this recently: “God is always a surprise, and therefore we never know where and how we’ll find him, we can’t fix the time and place for meeting with him. We must therefore discern the meeting. For this discernment is critical.” - laciviltacattolica.it/articoli_download/3216.pdf (in Italian)).

Feeding that back into the first line quoted above, He is saying we must be born again by God to see the kingdom.

PS: Sorry if this was said before, I did start reading the thread, honest, then it got all technical and I couldn’t follow it.

 

[Della]

They take the bold step of actually finding and reading it.

“After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.” - 1 Pet 3

Peter is not claiming that being dunked will magically save anyone, he is saying that baptism represents an appeal to God.

RSV renders this passage:

[18] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
[19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
[20] who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying that as Noah passed through the purging waters that cleansed the world, in the same way baptism now saves us.

As for the passage in Jn. 3 Nicodemus already understood what it means to be born from a woman’s womb. That’s why he couldn’t understand what Jesus meant by being “born again”. But Jesus clarified it by saying we must be born of “water and the spirit” not the spirit alone. Since we’ve already been born of the flesh being born of water means something else–it means baptism.

When Jesus commissioned his Apostles to go into the whole world to teach the Gospel he first commanded them to make disciples of them, baptizing them. If baptism were only symbolic why bother to command that it be done? It is baptism that initiates one into the Christian faith.

The early Church thought of baptism as the cleansing of original sin and the Church still holds to this today. No one thought otherwise until well after the reformation. Our Eastern brethren also believe in the saving value of baptism. Those who don’t are in the minority and are holding a position that is quite modern and has no roots in the ancient Church.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

They take the bold step of actually finding and reading it.

“After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.” - 1 Pet 3

Peter is not claiming that being dunked will magically save anyone, he is saying that baptism represents an appeal to God.

The text says exactly the opposite of what you wrote.
It says that the FLOOD WATER was symbolic, symbolizing baptism which is the reality.

So, reading it with understanding and from the heart of the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit) is the real key.

 

[Della]

The text says exactly the opposite of what you wrote.
It says that the FLOOD WATER was symbolic, symbolizing baptism which is the reality.

So, reading it with understanding and from the heart of the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit) is the real key.

Yes, the writers of the NT often cited OT stories as symbols for the realities that Christ brought about by his life, death, and resurrection. We are living in the end times since Christ was conceived in Mary’s womb. All that was in the past merely foreshadowed the sacraments and graces God was to pour out on all mankind through his Son.

 

[jmcrae]

Yea and verily, but nope.

*Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” - John 3*

Jesus connects water with flesh (being born) and spirit with Spirit (being born again).

People of that era thought that amniotic fluid was blood; not water. (That’s why childbirth was considered ritually unclean.) For that reason, Nicodemus would not have thought that “water” signified natural childbirth.

He likens the Spirit to the wind. In Hebrew, Ruach is the wind, the breath, the Spirit of God. Jesus is saying God decides when and how we are born again.

This is true, but it’s also true that God acts through His Church, and it is fitting for the Church to regulate the administration of the Sacraments.

Feeding that back into the first line quoted above, He is saying we must be born again by God to see the kingdom.

Agreed. How it takes place is through the Sacrament of Baptism. Being born again means that you are adopted into God’s family and become related to Him. It’s not necessarily a “feelings” relationship; rather, it is kinship, which doesn’t depend on feelings.

 

[Cathoholic]

Inocente. You said in post 155.

Peter is not claiming that being dunked will magically save anyone, he is saying that baptism represents an appeal to God.

This is a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.

Just as if I said:

Accepting Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and Savior is a magical formula and won’t save anyone.

This would be a misrepresentation of what you teach.

Attacking straw-men will not be persuasive here.

 

[inocente]

RSV renders this passage:

[18] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
[19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
[20] who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying that as Noah passed through the purging waters that cleansed the world, in the same way baptism now saves us.

The flood water drowned the unbelievers but saved the believers, and so stands as a symbol for belief. Peter says the water is not important (water can only remove dirt from the body). The water stands as “an appeal to God for a clear conscience”.

The original question was about preachers who say baptism doesn’t save us. They, and me, hold that God is everywhere and every-when, and so cannot be summoned up, and we don’t believe in any kind of magic, thus to us all rituals are purely symbolic. You might not agree, but that’s my answer to the question.

As for the passage in Jn. 3 Nicodemus already understood what it means to be born from a woman’s womb. That’s why he couldn’t understand what Jesus meant by being “born again”. But Jesus clarified it by saying we must be born of “water and the spirit” not the spirit alone. Since we’ve already been born of the flesh being born of water means something else–it means baptism.

My reading is (I think) standard Baptist, while yours seems somewhat tortured as you’re having to ignore most of what is said, including everything about the breath of God. Jesus says God decides when He will breath on us, we can’t summon Him up by scheduling a baptism in His diary. Pope Francis says much the same, God not us decides where and when He will touch us, we must be open to discern.

Have a look at the RSV footnotes. Note ** says the Greek means born anew and born from above, [c] says the Greek means both wind and spirit.

When Jesus commissioned his Apostles to go into the whole world to teach the Gospel he first commanded them to make disciples of them, baptizing them. If baptism were only symbolic why bother to command that it be done? It is baptism that initiates one into the Christian faith.

Baptism is a very important ritual as it outwardly marks the otherwise inner, private, change of conviction.

The early Church thought of baptism as the cleansing of original sin and the Church still holds to this today. No one thought otherwise until well after the reformation. Our Eastern brethren also believe in the saving value of baptism. Those who don’t are in the minority and are holding a position that is quite modern and has no roots in the ancient Church.

We don’t hold with original sin. We are not born separated from God (Jesus said the kingdom belongs to little children). But inevitably we go on to sin, which separates us from God. We must therefore be open to God to see the kingdom (John 3:3).

Thus, baptism is in no way magical, it symbolizes that inner change of conviction which takes us (again symbolically) from Adam to the Second Adam. As such it is only applicable to those who have knowledge of good and evil, who can make a choice to be a servant of Christ rather than a slave to sin. So it doesn’t apply to innocents, they haven’t separated themselves.

Again, you might not agree, but that’s how we see it.**

 

[inocente]

So, reading it with understanding and from the heart of the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit) is the real key.

I guess that’s end of discussion then.

 

[inocente]

People of that era thought that amniotic fluid was blood; not water. (That’s why childbirth was considered ritually unclean.) For that reason, Nicodemus would not have thought that “water” signified natural childbirth.

If you think of it as being born first in Adam and being born again in Christ, the water of baptism symbolizes the ritual cleansing from the first birth.

*This is true, but it’s also true that God acts through His Church, and it is fitting for the Church to regulate the administration of the Sacraments. *

I think God acts through all of us, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

Agreed. How it takes place is through the Sacrament of Baptism. Being born again means that you are adopted into God’s family and become related to Him. It’s not necessarily a “feelings” relationship; rather, it is kinship, which doesn’t depend on feelings.

Agreed, it is a regeneration of our entire relationship to God, it is no mere feeling. The standard question in the Baptist ceremony immediately prior to being dunked (which is our technical term for immersion), is “do you accept Christ as your personal savior?” and by answering yes you join His church, so it’s a very big and joyful moment.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I guess that’s end of discussion then.

Those are your words, not mine.

But “God said it, I believe it” should count for something, no?

 

[Church_Militant]

Those are your words, not mine.

But “God said it, I believe it” should count for something, no?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

jesus says we must be born again what exactly does it fell like to be born again

For many, I suppose, it’s a wonderful experience, but for me, it was BRUTAL!
Why?
I was a Pagan for 3-4 years, was completely antagonistic to Christianity, the whole
Abrahamic Faith (, ✟, ), etc, until I was suddenly filled with the Holy Spirit, and it was
not a pleasant experience at all, for I then realized how WRONG I was that whole time!

(I was on my way to Hell!)
​

I guess you can say I was Born Again like a new baby, confused,
crying, gasping for new breath, getting spanked ( Do doctors still do
that ? ), and it was a while before I settled down after returning to
the Faith. :getholy:

 

[Della]

inocente…I know just what you believe and why you believe it, having once thought the same way. But, none of what you think has any basis in sound theology nor historical Christianity. What you believe is a construct of the 18th and 19th centuries. It is based on “enthusiasm” and not on sound scriptural exegesis.

In denying the effectiveness of the sacraments you have cut yourself off from the graces that Christ instituted for our salvation. Knowledge is fine, but it’s not necessary for salvation–only God’s grace is necessary. You have elevated having a “personal experience of Christ” to that of dogma, but it’s not scriptural nor is it what the Apostles or early Church believed or taught.

The Apostles practiced and taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. It’s right there, as plain as day in the NT. It cannot be argued away for God was the one who instituted it and commanded that all persons be baptized in the great commission. Like all the sacraments it is more than an outward sign–nowhere in Scripture is baptism described as a mere sign/symbol. You are the one who has to torture the text to get it to say that.

You may think you came here to convert us poor benighted Catholics, but rather it is you who are in danger not us. For God’s truth will stand and the Holy Spirit will convince you if you are truly interested in the truth. So, beware. God bless you.

 

[inocente]

Those are your words, not mine.

But “God said it, I believe it” should count for something, no?

Sorry it was an attempt at a joke but I forgot to add a smiley. Didn’t understand what you meant except sometimes folk in this section of CAF like to play Catholic-Protestant games, but I’m not very good at that stuff.

I mean “the Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children”, so if it’s good enough for the Spirit then it’s good enough for me .

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Sorry it was an attempt at a joke but I forgot to add a smiley. Didn’t understand what you meant except sometimes folk in this section of CAF like to play Catholic-Protestant games, but I’m not very good at that stuff.

I mean “the Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children”, so if it’s good enough for the Spirit then it’s good enough for me .

You didn’t address the first part of my post:
The text says exactly the opposite of what you wrote.
It says that the FLOOD WATER was symbolic, symbolizing baptism which is the reality.
Is that what you didn’t understand?
It says so specifically in the text, and yet you’re making the statement:

They take the bold step of actually finding and reading it.

 

[inocente]

You may think you came here to convert us poor benighted Catholics, but rather it is you who are in danger not us. For God’s truth will stand and the Holy Spirit will convince you if you are truly interested in the truth. So, beware. God bless you.

I’m not here to convert anyone. Look where I’m posting from, in real life virtually everyone I know is Catholic.

I knew it was a mistake coming to Apologetics, you guys are sooo defensive. I will wander off again.

Romans 14

 

[crochet_lady]

The ‘context’ of Any Scripture passage are the verses Around the given verse – passage – the chapter as well as what the actual verse is saying.

The flood – God chose to destroy mankind in the world-wide flood because of their open wickedness. He Also told Noah how to build an Ark to Save his family From the destruction of the waters. The ark Floated on the top of the water. The raining was a destructive rain – nothing Saving about it.

The physical body Needs water to survive – through Drinking it.

If Infants can be saved through faith given to them by God – then Why was there the need for Christ to die on the cross?

The Scriptures in James – through my Works you can See my faith. AFTER accepting Christ as personal Savior – the Holy Spirit gives the person the Desire to Do ‘good things’. So How could that possibly apply to an infant?

The Great Commission in Matthew 28 – Go into all the world and preach the Gospel – making disciples and then baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Rather than paraphrase " vs 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go vs 17 When they saw Him they worshiped Him; but some doubted Him. vs 18 "Then Jesus came to them and said “all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. vs 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of … and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always , to the very end of the age.”

A person hears 1st – then chooses to follow – then is baptized.

Romans 10:14 “How, then, can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?”
So - someone is Sent to preach so that a person can Hear about Christ in the first place. And then the individuals decision to believe or not.

 

[inocente]

You didn’t address the first part of my post:
The text says exactly the opposite of what you wrote.
It says that the FLOOD WATER was symbolic, symbolizing baptism which is the reality.
Is that what you didn’t understand?
It says so specifically in the text, and yet you’re making the statement:

No, it was “So, reading it with understanding and from the heart of the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit) is the real key” that I didn’t understand.

But I’m not sure why you read the flood water as symbolic but baptism as literal. Are you saying baptism is magic or something?

Use Della’s RSV instead if you like: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

If baptism “corresponds to this” and if “the FLOOD WATER was symbolic” then baptism corresponds to the symbolic, and … baptism is symbolic. :curtsey:

 

[FathersKnowBest]

No, it was “So, reading it with understanding and from the heart of the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit) is the real key” that I didn’t understand.

But I’m not sure why you read the flood water as symbolic but baptism as literal. Are you saying baptism is magic or something?

No, I’m saying that the very text you quoted says so:
1Pe 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NIV)

And I think your term “magic” is perjorative. It is efficacious because it is God’s word.
It is “magic” in the same sense as “Let there be light” could be deemed “magic.”

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Use Della’s RSV instead if you like: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

If baptism “corresponds to this” and if “the FLOOD WATER was symbolic” then baptism corresponds to the symbolic, and … baptism is symbolic. :curtsey:

I think you’re getting spun up in a misunderstanding of which is the shadow and which is the reality. In essence, you’re saying that if the shadow symbolizes the reality, and the reality corresponds to the shadow, then the shadow and the reality are both symbolic.