Whats it like to be born again?

[sennincatholic]

It always amuses me when posters post how many pages. Pages depend on what you have set for your options. You can set the number of post you see per page from 5 to 100.

I have mine set at 100 so there are only two pages at the moment.

I certainly agree that there has been a great job done.

I didnt know the amount of pages could be adjusted. So i ll have to correct myself and say i read all 194 posts and they are realy good to read

 

[jmcrae]

I didnt know the amount of pages could be adjusted. So i ll have to correct myself and say i read all 194 posts and they are realy good to read

Regardless of the number of pages, I’m very glad you found it useful.

 

[adrift]

I didnt know the amount of pages could be adjusted. So i ll have to correct myself and say i read all 194 posts and they are realy good to read

No need to correct I just find it funny when someone says it is X pages long and I have only one page I am sorry I mentioned it. :blackeye:

Regardless of the number of pages, I’m very glad you found it useful.

Me too!

 

[inocente]

inocente. I am glad you agree with Pope Francis (post 186) to some extent:thumbsup:. We have common ground here and I am thankful for that.

That is the whole point about the “born again” thread is HOW you have “meeting with God” vrs your own personal dogmatic certainty.

The issue that Pope Francis brings out of course is who is having an “authentic meeting with God” versus their own personal “dogmatic certainty”?

The Catholic (I am admittedly paraphrasing the verses below from memory for brevity, we can and will talk specifics on this thread also and I am sure we will do so soon)
The Catholic would cite many of the Scriptural verses and affirm them all (“believe and be Baptized”, “Repent and be Baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”, “Baptism . . . now saves you”, “you were buried with Him (Jesus) in Baptism”, “arise and be Baptized”, “make disciples of all nations Baptizing them”, put on the “circumcision” of Christ, put on Baptism, we were Baptized into one body" the body of Christ, “he who believes and is Baptized, will be saved”, “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water”, “he saved us, . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit”, “the promise is for you and for your children”, “you must be born again . . . you must be born of water and the Spirit” etc. etc.).

The Anabaptist
You would give us a formula that is not explicitly stated anywhere in Scripture. And the “formula” has always varied, depending upon who my “preacher” was at the time.

That is of course the discussion concerning being “born again” and I am glad we are having it.

Which perspective is the Scriptural perspective. Which perspective is the personal dogmatic certainty of the Christian (not the Church) perspective?

And I am glad we are having the discussion.

The uncertainty part Pope Francis discusses centers upon US
The “uncertainty” Pope Francis is warning about is us (Christians [not the Church] who have a legalistic, restorationist, etc. view).

The certainty part Pope Francis discusses centers upon GOD
I have one dogmatic certainty: God is in every person’s life, God is in the life of each. Even if a person’s life has been a disaster, if it is destroyed by vices, drugs or anything else, God is in his life.

(This does NOT mean the Pope has ONLY one dogmatic certainty and I am not saying you are suggesting that inocente)

There is a sphere of certainty and in another sense of uncertainty in the Christian life.
(For example you cannot say, “I am CERTAIN there is NO CERTAINTY in the Christian life.” As that would be a self-contradiction.)

There is in a sense, an element of uncertainty as you state and I agree with you (I won’t go into it any more here as the thread concerns being “born again” but I wanted to give Catholics who may read this a little more depth).

Billy Graham even agrees with this principle when he talks about at least one element of uncertainty regarding an altar call.

Billy Graham: “When I ask people to come forward and a thousand people respond, I know in my heart they’re not all converted.”

The Council of Trent teaches the same thing with perhaps a little more depth.

Sense of certainty:
. . . even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments,

Sense of uncertainty:
. . . no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

Here is a quote from Trent partially unpacking this principle (in case there are Catholics who may not agree with Pope Francis).

Council of Trent CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics. [snip]
Just to point out that the Pope never made any reference to Protestants in that interview, all his comments are directed at Catholics.

So when he talks about those “who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ‘security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists” he isn’t talking about outside the Church (this was the interview in which he also spoke of not confusing “the genius of Thomas Aquinas with the age of decadent Thomist commentaries”).

 

[inocente]

What did I ignore? The one who is ignoring is you. I stated that the translation and the Greek mean the same thing instead of saying anything of consequence you say “sort out” and “ignore all the other words” Guess you do know convenience. What did you say

All of the words before that.

As I’ve now said twice before, I’m not sure what more can be said on baptism now we know each others’ position, it’s not like we can solve hundreds of years of debate on an internet forum.

 

[inocente]

You counted how many words he wrote

Nooooooo . You paste it into MS Word and it gives you the word count at the bottom of the window.

*Part of communication is correcting a misunderstanding. Cathoholic wrote

He is telling you what he sees. If this is incorrect than it would behoove you to tell him what his mistake is rather than tell him how many words he used that is true discussion. He specifically stated that Foundations and terminology need to be correct . Instead of addressing his post you counted it:shrug:*

I joined the thread to discuss the OP, not to be behooved into discussing hypothetical misunderstandings which hypothetical posters may hypothetically have.

 

[adrift]

All of the words before that.

As I’ve now said twice before, I’m not sure what more can be said on baptism now we know each others’ position, it’s not like we can solve hundreds of years of debate on an internet forum.

No I didn’t but you did. You post the Greek and then you say that sorts it out. I pointed out that the Greek translated into the English means the same thing. Instead of pointing out to me how the English translation is not accurate you say I ignore it.

I am even sure that you are saying the English is inaccurate since you really aren’t saying anything other than this sorts is out. HUH?

If you have presented any reasoning, I would like to see it. I have gone back over your post:shrug:

 

[Cathoholic]

Inocente I am not sure what you mean when you say,

Just to point out that the Pope never made any reference to Protestants in that interview, ***all ***his comments are directed at Catholics.

When you yourself quoted Pope Francis in post 186 . . .

“If the Christian is legalistic, restorationist, if you want . . .”

• I don’t know if you are intimating that the Pope means only Catholics have a sphere of certainty and a sphere of uncertainty in the Christian life but non-Catholics don’t have this . . .
• Or if you (not me) are suggesting that the Pope thinks only “Catholics” are “Christians” as Pope Francis used the term “Christian” in your own quote . . .
• Or if you want to just put this whole issue of Papal news conferences behind, and get started discussing the issue of being born again.
• Or something else but either way, I want to invite you to look at the issue of being “born again”.

You also said you want to discuss this issue

I joined the thread to discuss the OP.

So please go ahead with your points from the Bible about being “born again”.

Many Catholic points were already made here and I (and others I am sure) will make more points but I would like you to go ahead now.

As you know, on a thread like this there is going to be differences in the outlook (and I know that too) and so we just do what we can in discussing the issue. But it is getting time to discuss the ISSUE of being “born again”.

 

[inocente]

• I don’t know if you are intimating that the Pope means only Catholics have a sphere of certainty and a sphere of uncertainty in the Christian life but non-Catholics don’t have this . . .
• Or if you (not me) are suggesting that the Pope thinks only “Catholics” are “Christians” as Pope Francis used the term “Christian” in your own quote . . .
• Or if you want to just put this whole issue of Papal news conferences behind, and get started discussing the issue of being born again.
• Or something else but either way, I want to invite you to look at the issue of being “born again”.

The Pope was not giving a new conference, he was talking to the editor in chief of La Civiltà Cattolica, the Jesuits’ Italian journal. In a long interview the Pope is asked about the Society of Jesus, why he became a Jesuit, governing the Church, the role of the Church, the role of women in the Church, then there’s the section I quoted.

The Pope was speaking of and to the Church in his new role, he was not concerned about any of the things you mention, why on earth would he be?

*So please go ahead with your points from the Bible about being “born again”.

Many Catholic points were already made here and I (and others I am sure) will make more points but I would like you to go ahead now.

As you know, on a thread like this there is going to be differences in the outlook (and I know that too) and so we just do what we can in discussing the issue. But it is getting time to discuss the ISSUE of being “born again”.*

The Pope says God breathes on us in His time, we cannot schedule a meeting with God, we must discern our encounter with the living God. The Pope is speaking of being born again, in the same terms as did Jesus.

He says God is alive, God cannot be found in dead doctrine, and specifically says: “If someone has the answers to all the questions, that’s proof that God is not with him. It means he is a false prophet, who uses religion for himself.”

So actually the Pope is providing an excellent answer to the OP along with a very blunt criticism of those who think they have God in their back pocket.

I agree with the Pope, faith is not merely an ideology among other ideologies, it should not be static and inward directed, sectarianism is not faith.

 

[crochet_lady]

I was just reading in Acts 15: 1-12 – "And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved …so Paul and Barnabas went to visit that area and shared :vs 11 " But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they,”

So - there are Some who teach salvation through Sabbath Day worship, Some through being circumcised – and various other ‘things’ needed – but that verse 11 says that 'through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved" and that’s the same thing that Eph 2 teaches ’ For by Grace we shall be saved "

 

[AmbroseSJ]

That line of reasoning is as relevant as saying you are saved by breathing when the Life Guard rescues you from drowning. Would anyone deny that it is breathing that gives life? But without the lifeguard how is that breathing possible?

Yes, we are saved by grace. But how is that grace obtained? That is the question!

 

[Cathoholic]

OK inocente.

It wasn’t a news conference. It was an interview with the editor in chief of La Civiltà Cattolica, the Jesuits’ Italian journal.

Now that we got that all squared away, perhaps you can begin by telling me (and the other readers of this thread) what you think “being born again” is . . . . from the Bible.

 

[Lion_Heart]

As you know, on a thread like this there is going to be differences in the outlook (and I know that too) and so we just do what we can in discussing the issue. But it is getting time to discuss the ISSUE of being “born again”.

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic.

To really understand what it mean, and what is it like to be “born again” is beneficial to understand what happened at the fall of Adam and Eve.
If we understand the effects of the fall, then we understand the reason we have to be born again.

EFFECTS OF THE FALL:

1. The whole human race went under GOD’S CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.
2. The whole human race and the whole creation CORRUPTED. – Rom.8:19-21; Please see: (Matt.19:28; Acts 3:21).
3. This world became THE KINGDOM OF SATAN and the whole human race went into the kingdom of Satan. – Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7.
4. The human race LOST their HOLINESS. Please see: (Rom.12:1-2).

THE WAY GOD REVERSES THE ABOVE FOUR EFFECTS OF THE FALL ARE:

1. God has reversed our CONDEMNATION by our JUSTIFICATION (Rom.5:18 + Rom.3:24) .
   The result of our justification is: Our reconciliation with God (2 Cor.5:17, 19).
2. God has reversed our CORRUPTION by our RECREATION/BORN AGAIN/NEW CREATION (2 Cor.5:17).

a. God took out our heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. – Ezekiel 36:26.

b. God has put a new spirit within us. – Ezekiel 36:26.

c. God has put HIS SPIRIT WTHIN US and we become the TEMPLE OF GOD (1 Cor.3:16), the TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor.6:19), and CHRIST LIVES IN US (Gal.2:20).

d. We were DEAD spiritually and God made us spiritually ALIVE. We have passed from DEATH to LIFE. – John 5:24; Eph.2:1; Col.2:10-13.

e. God has BAPTIZED us into the Body of Christ. – 1 Cor.1:30; 1 Cor.12:12-13, 20, 27.

1. God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Satan’s kingdom) and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, and made us sit together in the HEAVENLY PLACE in Christ Jesus. – Col.1:13; Eph.2:1-6.

Quote: “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
We are inserted into the Body of Christ by our baptism and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

So those who are saying we are not saved until we are in heaven, they are perfectly right, because at our conversion God takes us up to heaven.

1. THE RESTORATION OF OUR HOLINESS IS DONE THROUGH SANCTIFICATION:

SANCTIFICATION can be a bit confusing, because in the Scripture some verses refer to SANCTIFICATION as a PAST COMPLETED event, such as 1 Cor.6:11; Hebr.10:10; Hebr.10:29.

Some Bible verses indicate that SANCTIFICAION is an ONGOING PROCESS, such as Phill.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11.

In Christ we are Sanctified. Which is a completed event.
In ourselves, to be able to grow in the likeness of Christ, we need sanctifying. Which is an on-going event.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

AT THAT POINT when in Christ (Body of Christ) we HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED, BORN AGAIN/RECREATED at that point, we are also SANCTIFIED. – 1 Cor.1:30.

1 Cor.11:6 “But you were WASHED (Rev.1:5 Christ washed us from our sins in His own blood.”) but you were SANCTIFIED, but you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

We are not only ready to go to Heaven, but in fact WE ARE IN HEAVEN.
At our conversion, “God raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” (Eph.2:6)

Here on earth we are Christ’s ambassadors. (2 Cor.5:20)

For the purity of the gospel, we cannot over emphasize:
Our sanctification work described in Phill.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11 is THE fruits of our salvation NOT the cause of it!

Our salvation is God’s FREE GIFT and with our works we CANNOT contribute anything to it.
The “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” Phil.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11 is referring to sanctification. Our sanctification is our cooperation with the grace of God

According to Catholic doctrine: No one can cooperate with the grace of God before saved, with other words, until in the state of grace.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING

The Catholic Church and the Bible (John 5:24; John 15:5; Eph.2:8) clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.

Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

According to Church teaching:
Salvation PRECEDES supernatural merit.
Salvation also PRECEDES our supernatural work on our sanctification, described in: Phil.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11.

To have a clear understanding on what it means, being SAVED, BORN AGAIN and BAPTISM. We have to have a clear understanding:

a. When is the point when someone is SAVED?
b. What is the cause of SALVATION?
c. What is the RELATION of our Baptism to our SALVATION.

a. THE POINT WHEN SOMEONE IS SAVED

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. (It is on the internet, every Catholic and Protestant should read and study it.)

Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:

a. BELIEF ……. (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE ……… (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY …. (Unconditional LOVE for God.)
d. BAPTISM OF DESIRE.

To freely accept the GIFT OF FAITH, “THE WILL IS PREPARED BY THE LORD.” – Canon 4 of the Council of Orange (529 AD); John 6:44-45.

This formed faith (baptism of desire included to formed faith) produces INSTANT JUSTIFICATION and INSTANT SALVATION without water baptism and without sacraments, [CCC 1249]; Acts 10:44-48.

As 1.2 billion Catholic in the world, probably millions of catechumens in heaven who never had water baptism or any sacrament.

b. THE CAUSE OF OUR SALVATION

It is God’s GIFT OF FORMED FAITH.
Formed faith includes baptism of desire.

c. The RELATION of the Baptism to our SALVATION.

Formed faith PRECEDES being born again and being saved.
Being born again and being saved PRECEDES water baptism.

When catechumens have the water baptism, he/she was saved and born again by God’s gift of faith which includes baptism of desire [CCC 1249], Acts 10:44-48, usually long before their water baptism.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

SUMMARY

1. The whole human race went under GOD’S CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.
2. The whole human race and the whole creation CORRUPTED. – Rom.8:19-21; Please see: (Matt.19:28; Acts 3:21).
3. This world became THE KINGDOM OF SATAN and the whole human race went into the kingdom of Satan. – Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7.
4. The human race LOST their HOLINESS. Please see: (Rom.12:1-2).

AT THAT POINT when God gives us His GIFT OF FORMED FAITH, at THIS POINT He baptizes us into the Body of Christ, and at THIS POINT He REVERSES from us all the above four effects of the fall.

In Christ even our sanctification is completed as it is described in 1 Cor.1:30; 1 Cor.6:11 and in Rev.1:5.
“Him (Christ) loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.”
In Christ (as members of His Body) our sanctification is a “past event.”
We are holy in the Body of Christ.

But we are not exactly holy in ourselves. We have to work on it by cooperation with the grace of God. “Ongoing event.”
Our salvation PRECEDECS our cooperation with the grace of God.
So, Phil.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11, is the FRUIT of our salvation NOT the cause of it.

Our salvation is God’s FREE GIFT, includes our completed sanctification in the Body of Christ. In Christ we are holy and saved. Period. Someone in Christ or not, this is another matter.

In ourselves we are not yet holy, we work on our holiness/sanctification by our cooperation with the grace of God.

We may call this work “supernatural work” because God is working through us by our cooperation with his grace.
With this work we gain supernatural merit. This is also God’s gift.
For our supernatural merit we also get reward IN heaven.

Here we have to be very careful, because to do good works is not as easy as someone may think.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING

The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.

Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis mine.

If we believe: Work is a condition of our salvation, then our works can NEVER BE UP TO THE ABOVE STANDARDS because we do it for ourselves to purchase salvation not for love and for the Glory of God, and ALL our work goes up in smoke at the judgment of 1 Cor.3:11-15.

This is THE DIVIDING LINE between true religion and false religion.

The members of the true religion work FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY, NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP them SOMEHOW but for SHEER LOVE of God and for HIS GLORY.

They can do it ONLY IF they KNOW they have the IRREVOCABLE God’s gift of everlasting life (Rom.11:29), and God’s gift of FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASIZE: This is THE KEY to do supernatural merit that God accepts and recognize!!! – There is NO other way to achieve supernatural merit which is the only good works.

The members of false religions are working for God’s FREE GIFT OF SALVATION.
In an uncertain and feared hope that by the end of their life enough works done and for their merit - they will earn salvation.

Being Born Again is the greatest privilege and the greatest happiness in the whole world.
Being in a loving personal relationship with Christ.
Total devotion to Christ and to live for Christ and to know to die is gain.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart.

Thank you for all your home work.

I think your formulations and summaries of Catholic catechesis are quite good.

When you stated:

“To freely accept the GIFT OF FAITH, “THE WILL IS PREPARED BY THE LORD.” – Canon 4 of the Council of Orange (529 AD); John 6:44-45”

The theological term for this is “God’s Prevenient Grace.”

I am sure you know this, but in case there are outside readers that may not, I posted some other quotes on this concept too (see here, here, and here).

Concerning justification, be careful about divorcing justification from sanctification or not seeing an increase in these (or sadly a rejection of these later).

Would you say that justification is also a process and that this process includes sanctification?

**TRENT CHAPTER VII. **

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

**TRENT CHAPTER X. **

On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

Be careful also about conflating ordinary means with extraordinary means of salvation (Acts 10:44-48 was extraordinary).

Baptism is the instrumental cause of our salvation (ordinary means).

• The final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting
• The efficient cause is a merciful God
• The meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ
• The instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism
• The alone formal cause is the justice of God

**TRENT CHAPTER VII **(goes on to state)

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

 

[daler]

It isn’t a matter of feeling. It’s the work of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of baptism. People certainly have emotional experiences as the result of God’s work in their lives, but those experiences are not “being born again.”

I experienced the born again effect upon my soul both in a church setting, in several Native American Sacred Sweat Lodge Ceremonies, and within the Baha’i Faith many times. In each case the same soul cleansing power of the Holy spirit. Once, in Akka, Israel, at the shore with waves crashing while praying. At the end, I literally felt as though I had been laundered and my self handed back to me clean and pure, as though the stains of all my sins had been washed completely away, and were no longer a part of me, and never had been. The most profound religious experience of my life, there, at the Most Great Prison of Akka, in which Baha’u’llah had been falsely imprisoned for 9 years in strict confinement, often in chains, deprived of food, His followers dying, even starving at times.

And it was from this filthy prison cell of Akka that he wrote to the leaders of the world, summoning them to their Lord, including Queen Elizabeth, Napoleon III, Kaiser Wilhelm, Pope Pius IX, Sultan Abdul-Azis, and the Shah of Persia, as well as the leaders of Christendom and America. History records the unprecedented down fall of the majority of these despots with years of receipt of these letters compiled in a Book called : Summons of the Lord of Hosts. This collection in Kingly letters is the most fascinating read which transforned the equilibrium of humanity in just a few short years as the Hand of God swept the fron power, one by God, as they heeded not the warnings of the King of Kings and Lord of Hosts.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-10.html

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[Cathoholic]

What is “Being Born Again”?

Lion Heart. The other thing I should add is that the topic of the thread is being “born again”. If you would like, please feel free to begin a thread on the Catholic catechetical nuances of justification. I really enjoy that topic and would likely participate.

Admittedly many of the topics you touched upon already do tangentially associate with baptism and are appropriate to bring out (but not expound upon here). I am not criticizing your posts, but I think we can dive deeper into this mystery (not “completely” as it is a “mystery” but “deeper”) with a dedicated thread.

If you have some brief things that get directly to being “born again” by all means include it (if you have not already).

Keep up the good work though Lion Heart.

Inocente.

(The ordinary means of) “Being born again” to the Catholic, means being “born of water and the Spirit.”

Inocente. You label yourself as “Baptist”. Please feel free to discuss “being born again” from your Baptist perspective.

The ideas are different even among Baptist preachers. (I went to Baptist Sunday school as a child and as a high school-er was involved in a youth ministry ran by Baptists and I know they are different, camps retreats, campfire, altar calls, etc.).

So let’s get started (on what being born again is and why you think it is such).

Daler.

You said “I experienced the born again effect upon my soul both in . . .”

Possibly you can add to the discussion too by first telling everyone what “Being born again” is in a non-Christian sense is and WHY you think it is that?

 

[Lion_Heart]

Cathoholic

Thank you for your two posts.

I agree with you. Next week I will have another post.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[michaelhager]

Much has been said, quoted and documented above to justify the term scripturally so I will not attempt to justify my words with research, there is enough here that has been interpreted in several different ways, depending upon the writer…

At a protestant service, when the pastor calls for those who wish to accept Christ into their lives to come forward and acknowledge Him as their personal savoir, that person undergoes a fundamental change in their entire being, an acceptance of someone else in control of his life, a trust that our Lord Jesus Christ will love and care for them for the rest of their lives. The person is not one molecule different physically than when they walked in the door, but there is a change that we all agree is life shattering and wonderful.

We allow that they have been “Born again”. Sometimes baptism follows for the un-baptized at which point some might say he has been born yet again.

I was born again in 1962. I couldn’t say now if it was when I consented to baptism and the acceptance of Jesus, or at my baptism itself. But I will tell you with certainty that I was born yet again, when I accepted confirmation at Easter Vigil in 2010 as a Catholic. And I am born again each and every time I accept that little wafer, and the chalice to receive the blessed sacrament of the Eucharist.

I cannot now even imagine the idea of being born again only once. I am blessed and honored and often moved to tears to be able to accept Jesus over and over again.

Michael Hager