Whats it like to be born again?

[crochet_lady]

Cathoholic

Well – as the verse says – IF – then. So - that’s what the verse says – yes. Since Ephesians 2:8 -9 says – For by Grace you are saved through faith …it is the gift of God.
So – apparently the ‘confessing with your mouth’ is Not considered a good work.
so – what does it mean to ‘confess with your mouth’? it’s a means of communication – if we’re talking to God / praying out loud , then we’d be ‘confessing out loud to Him’ – if we’re around other people when we’ve made the decision in our heart, we’re going to be
wanting to share it with them- -cause it’s an important spiritual decision.
Well - it’s like getting engaged – you’re excited that he’s asked / that she’s said ‘yes’ – so you’re eager/ happy to share that news with everyone.
It’s an automatic response.

Then you included ‘the water and the spirit’ – well – a person has to be Alive (born of your mother) 1st – in order to be born the 2nd time ’ spiritually’. A person has Nothing to do with their 1st physical birth. The mother does all the work to get you out. Well – unless it’s a c-section. And then it’s a doctor who does the work. But the person Being born has Nothing to do with the Process. Except that the Process is what enables him to be born.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Then you included ‘the water and the spirit’ – well – a person has to be Alive (born of your mother) 1st – in order to be born the 2nd time ’ spiritually’. A person has Nothing to do with their 1st physical birth. The mother does all the work to get you out. Well – unless it’s a c-section. And then it’s a doctor who does the work. But the person Being born has Nothing to do with the Process. Except that the Process is what enables him to be born.

You do realize that this interpretation (water being amniotic fluid) is a very late one, don’t you?

In fact, the oldest citation I’ve been able to find to support this view is from 1989.

The ancients all considered amniotic fluid to be “blood.”

See John 3:5: “Of water” refers to physical birth from amniotic sac — who first proposed that theory?

D.A. Carson writes:

"there are no ancient sources that picture natural birth as ‘from water’, and the few that use ‘drops’ to stand for semen are rare and late. It is true that in sources relevant to the Fourth Gospel water can be associated with fecundity and procreation in a general way (e.g. Song 4:12-13; Pr. 5:15-18),1 but none is tied quite so clearly to semen or to amniotic fluid as to make the connection here an obvious one. The Greek construction does not favour two births here. Moreover the entire expression ‘of water and the Spirit’ cries out to be read as the equivalent of anōthen, ‘from above’, if there is genuine parallelism between v. 3 and v. 5, and this too argues that the expression should be taken as a reference to but one birth, not two."

In other words, what Jesus said in the Greek is NOT:
unless one is born of water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Rather, He said:
unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The Greek wording makes “of water and the Spirit” relate to ONE event, ONE birth.

 

[Cathoholic]

Crochet lady.

You cited (bold and ul mine):

Romans 10:9 "that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.

I asked if “confess(ing) with your mouth the Lord Jesus” was a good “work”?

You basically said no. “Confess(ing) with your mouth” as St. Paul commands, is not "a good work”.

Crochet lady stated:

So – apparently the ‘confessing with your mouth’ is Not considered a good work.

I also asked:

Do you HAVE TO “confess with your mouth” (as St. Paul says)?

You didn’t answer this.

So is this work that St. Paul commands . . . . . an optional non-work . . . or . . . . is it a necessary non-work?

 

[crochet_lady]

I’ll refer you back to # 256 ? 286? I was responding back to Catholic with the answer to your question, yesterday. Sorry about my confusion as to the # of the post.

 

[crochet_lady]

Okay it was #256 cause we’re not up to the 80’s yet.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I’ll refer you back to # 256 ? 286? I was responding back to Catholic with the answer to your question, yesterday. Sorry about my confusion as to the # of the post.

Yes. And I responded to 256.

BTW, D.A. Carson is a Protestant theologian.

 

[Cathoholic]

Crochet lady

You appealed to Ephesians 2:8-9 (again) to deny John 3:5.

Ephesians 2:8 -9 says – For by Grace you are saved through faith …it is the gift of God.

Yet you can’t separate Ephesians 2:8 from works.

That’s WHY St. Paul talks about the “obedience of faith” in Romans that we discussed earlier.

And as if to drive home this inseparability between at least works in some sense, and faith, St. Paul asserts not only Ephesians 2:8-10 (where faith comes through grace), but elsewhere also Romans 10:17 where faith comes through hearing. Hearing a Gospel that has been PREACHED. Preaching is a very good work, but a work it is.

ROMANS 10:17 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

• Element of Grace to faith
• Element of Hearing the Word Preached to faith

It is NOT “Bible-believing” to affirm some verses and reject other verses given by God almighty.

Catholics affirm ALL the verses. I want to challenge my non-Catholic friends to believe ALL the Bible verses.

The whole context of Romans 10:17 includes obeying the Gospel and also quotes the Old Testament in regards to this obtaining faith (Isaiah 52:6-8 and Nahum 1:15) which likewise have a list of works associated with them.

ROMANS 10:14-18 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Notice the context of this faith is not just from Jesus’ preaching ONLY but through “men” plural.

And St. Paul explicitly says this is part of how faith comes (“faith comes from what is heard”).

Your ministers will divorce faith and all works from salvation.

St. Paul does NOT divorce faith and all works from salvation.

Catholics today (like St. Paul was) do not divorce faith and all works from salvation.

Catholics affirm faith AND works together just as St. Paul does.

And one of the “works” we affirm is a work of not us, but of Jesus. It is the work of Jesus BAPTIZING us (just as He does in John [although He Himself does not do the physical Baptism, Jesus Baptizes in a sense behind the one Baptizing]). It is the work of being born again or being born of water and the Spirit.

Your ministers will not affirm these Bible passages in their Biblical or historical context. We as Catholics DO.

Now if you can say concerning the work (as you did in post 256 saying, “apparently the ‘confessing with your mouth’ is Not considered a good work”) . . . .

. . . . If “Confessing with your mouth” does not go against your concept of “no works”, why do you not affirm Jesus words in the context of being “born again” in the sense this does not violate your “no works” ideas?

ROMANS 10:17 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

The contextual backdrop of Romans 10:17 is taken from Isaiah and Nahum which include various works.

And the “preaching” in Romans 10 is Jesus, but not JUST Jesus (remember it is “men” as verse 15 explicitly says–is their preaching not a “work” either?).

The “works” we are not saved by in Ephesians 2:8 are NOT ALL works in every sense.

The “works” we are not saved by in Ephesians 2:8 crochet lady, refers to “circumcision”.

EPHESIANS 2:8-11a 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . .

JOHN 3:3, 5, 22, 4:1-2 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” . . . . 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God… . . . 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. . . . . 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples) . . . .

Once you believe the whole context of Ephesians 2:8, then you will believe John 3:3-5 too.

 

[crochet_lady]

Cathoholic

Obviously we do Not agree on a few things. — what a person chooses to read Into or out of ‘not of works’ – gets a bit ridiculous at times. But that ‘poor horse’ has been ‘kicked to death’. God had His Son die on the cross for a Reason. To take care of our sins. A gift of God. Belief in a persons’ heart is first and then ‘confessing with our mouth – the Lord Jesus’. And if a person wants to consider the ‘confessing with our mouth’ to be a ‘good work’ on our part – then it is simply the Person being determined to have ‘good works’ as part of salvation.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady. You said,

Belief in a persons’ heart is first

We Catholics affirm the necessity of belief. It is an integral part of being born again or being born of water and the Spirit.

On the BELIEF or faith aspect of what you said, Catholics stand shoulder to shoulder with the Baptists.

CCC 1226b . . . . Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith . . .

But it is on the Baptist DENIAL of John 3:5 (Jesus telling us we must be born or water and the Spirit) we differ.

• Believe—Catholics and Baptists
• Born of Water and the Spirit—Catholics

Catholics affirm ALL the verses. Catholics affirm the verses about faith AND the verses about being born of water and the Spirit (Baptism or being born again).

**CCC 1427b ** . . . . It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.

                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

OK. As an aside, WHY am I so passionate about this point? I have spilled a fair amount of ink and electrons about this issue on this thread. But why?

You and I know there are theological differences between Catholics and Baptists crochet lady.

I have been deeply immersed in Baptist theologies and I don’t want you or any other Baptist reader of this thread going away from here thinking what they have sometimes explicitly told me.

Well what has some Baptists explicitly told me?

They have told me this:

Quote:
“You Catholics don’t affirm the need for faith for justification! You guys just sprinkle a little water and it’s done. We Baptists PRAY for the Holy Spirit!”

That’s a phony line and I don’t want any Baptist to walk away from this discussion thinking that of Catholics.

I don’t want any of my Baptist friends believing a lie or misinformation about Catholicism.

What was my reply to one Baptist guy who said this to me?

My reply was:

Quote:

“WE PRAY for the Holy Spirit TOO. Only WE OBEY Jesus and are born of water AND the Spirit! We actually BELIEVE what Jesus said!”

I am not trying to get Baptists to be Catholic (I can’t do as such anyway), but I CAN try to at least get Baptists to KNOW what Catholics really believe and be less anti-Catholic.

If they don’t want to believe it, that is between them and God. They (and I) will be before our Lord Jesus some day and have to give an accounting for all of this. ALL of it (Matthew 12:36).

We have a lot of friends that are Evangelicals and some Fundamentalists as well. But I know many of them would not be our friends had we not boldly and Biblically helped them with their misconceptions about the Catholic Church and what it teaches.

We had a long discussion with one of my Evangelical Minister friends one evening about this. We watched an anti-Catholic documentary of his together and he told me if there was one error in it, he would throw it away.

Well there were MANY errors in it. He said he cared so much about truth that although he opposed Catholicism, he ALSO did not want to misrepresent Catholicism either. He KNEW to purposefully misrepresent Catholicism on these points he would be lying.

He was throwing it away. I asked him if he would give the anti-Catholic video to me instead of throwing it out. He did give it to me and I use it to help clueless Catholics see what is said about us sometimes and how our Holy Catholic faith is misrepresented by some.

I get along great with these people and do you know what I hear from them?

When we are alone they say: “You know, I don’t agree with some of your religious views, but I really respect you and I can see Biblically why you believe this stuff.”

One of my Fundamentalist friends asked me on a fishing trip about a Marian doctrine and even changed his views on the doctrine when we discussed it Scripturally.

They go on to tell me that milquetoast Catholics make them sick.

So I think about that principle whenever I am tempted to be timid or “a milquetoast Catholic” in any given discussion with these friends.

This is why I am insistent upon this issue. Not insistent that you believe like Catholics believe (although I never put that past the Holy Spirit either), but insistent you actually know what Catholics believe/teach and NOT misrepresent Catholics when talking about our beliefs (I am not accusing you crochet lady of misrepresenting Catholics. But I know there are other readers here and this post is for them too, so do not take any of this personally).

God bless

PS Some will read CCC 1226b . . . . Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith . .

Then ask themselves WHY do Catholics baptize babies then? Quick answer is based on authority of Dad to echo Joshua “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”. More details on infant Baptism here.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I always knew we would agree on Baptism.
The New Testament is very clear on the teaching of Baptism.

Before we can understand the necessity of the timing of baptism we need to make CLEAR some basic teachings of the New Testament.

THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ON:- WHAT IT MEANS BEING IN ADAM? – 1 Cor.15:22a

a. It means, being on the spiritual position of the fall. – Rom.5:18a.

b. Can do nothing. – John 15:5b.

c. Not in the State of Grace. – Rom.5:18a.

THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ON:- WHAT IT MEANS BEING ON THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL IN ADAM?

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

According to the New Testament: This is above the PRESENT SPIRITUAL REALITY of those who are IN ADAM. – Up to date for today.

THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ON WHAT IT MEANS:- IN CHRIST? – 1 Cor.15:22b

New Creation, Born Again, Child of God, Born from Above, Born from the water and the Spirit, Bears much fruit, In the State of Grace, etc.

THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ON:- WHAT IS THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF A PERSON WHO IS IN CHRIST?

GOD BAPTIZES US INTO CHRIST/INTO UNION WITH CHRIST AND THE WORK OF GOD IN OUR BAPTISM:-

a. JUSTIFIED:- At our justification God has DECLARED us just and declared us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24.

b. RE-CREATED/BORN AGAIN:- At our re-creation God has MADE us sons of God. – Ez.36:26-27; Eph.2:1; Col.2:10-13.
From SPIRITUAL DEATH God has made us SPIRITUALLY ALIVE. – Eph.2:1; Col.2:13.

c. SANCTIFIED:- At our sanctification God has MADE us holy. – 1 Cor.6:11; Rev.1:5.

This is above the EXACT POINT when we cross over the line from “IN ADAM” to “IN CHRIST,” from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

Justification, re-creation/born again and sanctification is one composite with three parts in it.
If we understand the function of each part, we can have a deeper understanding.

ONE OF THE MOST CRUCIAL THEOLOGICAL FACTS:-

Every member of the entire human race is IN ADAM on the spiritual position of the fall, or IN CHRIST Re-Created/Born Again.
Can be NO exception!!!

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE CAN BE IMPERFECTLY “IN CHRIST”/IMPERFECTLY UNITED WITH CHRIST?

An “imperfect unity with Christ” WITHOUT justification, re-creation/born again, sanctification MEANS:-
Being under God’s CONDEMNATION in the state of SPIRITUAL DEATH IN SINS. Which is a “perfect unity with Adam.”

Our spiritual position, justification or lack of it, re-creation/born again or lack of it and sanctification or lack of it DETERMINES that we are united with ADAM or we are united with CHRIST.

Cathoholic, your realization that the catechumens must be united with Christ is perfect, and this is the KEY about the whole matter.

But your explanation of an “imperfect unity with Christ” which excludes justification, re-creation/born again and sanctification (with two word: Initial justification) is a PERFECT and FULL UNITY WITH ADAM on the spiritual position of the fall.
NOT an “imperfect unity with Christ.”

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

THE NEW TESTAMENT AND CATHOLIC TEACHING ON:-
When is the EXACT POINT when someone crosses the line from IN ADAM to IN CHRIST?

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasize mine.

ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE FACTS, AS WELL AS THE TEACHING OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:-

AT THAT POINT when God gives us His gift of formed faith THAT IS THE POINT when He performs His part of our baptism and that is THE EXACT POINT when we cross the line from “IN ADAM” to “IN CHRIST.”

This is also the EXACT POINT when we cross the line from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

God is the One who Baptize us into Christ/unite us with Christ.
So, imperfect union with Christ is a THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

SUMMARY:-

IN ADAM:-
a. On the spiritual position of the fall.

b. Not in the state of grace.

c. Accept nothing from the Spirit of God, see it all as nonsense.

d. Can do nothing.

IN CHRIST:-
a. By God have been Baptized into the Body of Christ. That is the REASON being IN CHRIST or IN UNION WITH CHRIST.
There is no such thing being IN CHRIST or being in any way united with Christ without baptism.
Baptism is God’s process that unite us with Christ. – There is NO OTHER WAY being IN CHRIST or UNITED TO CHRIST.

b. New Creation, Born Again, In the State of Grace.

c. Accepts the things from the Spirit God. Judge the value of everything. Have the mind of Christ.

d. God’s ambassador. Bears much fruit to God.

e. Member of the New Covenant.

Until someone doesn’t know the theological fact that:-

Every member of the entire human race is in one of the two IN ADAM as a resident of the kingdom of Satan UNDER God’s condemnation,

or IN CHRIST as a resident of the kingdom of God and Born Again, CAN NOT really understand the SALVATION PATTERN of the New Covenant.

Cathoholic, now I will try to answer all your questions.

I’m not suggesting bypassing catechesis.
The WORD OF GOD PROCLAIMING, no one can be catechized IN ADAM on the spiritual position of the fall.

Someone is Baptized INTO CHRIST or he is on the spiritual position of the fall IN ADAM.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!!! – There is NO in between position between SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN SINS and RE-CREATED/BORN AGAIN.

The spiritual position of the fall is described in the New Testament, it means what it says. It is up to date.
It is EXACTLY the spiritual position of those who are IN ADAM.

1 Cor.2:14 referring to those who are IN ADAM.

While 1 Cor.3:1-3a referring to those who are IN CHRIST.
Babies IN CHRIST. Meaning, they are “very” new Christians/recently Born Again. – Recently born from the water and the Spirit.

New Born Again Christians are like new born babies. They have to develop spiritually and that takes a LONG time.

Never the less:- They are IN CHRIST because God has baptized them INTO CHRIST and they are Born Again. – Have been born from the water and the Spirit.

Yes they are being “fed” with “milk” because they are IN CHRIST IN PERFECT UNION, only they are babies IN CHRIST.
THE UNION IS MADE BY GOD. All God’s work is perfect.

They are NOT less members of the Body of Christ then those who have been Baptized into the Body of Christ 50 years ago.
ONY the spiritual development is different, but not the “legal” union with Christ.

The legal membership of the Body of Christ/New Covenant and the spiritual maturity is not the same.

Cathoholic, you are speaking about the gradual developments of the catechumens.
What do you think on which spiritual position they are developing?

a. If they are IN ADAM, they are on the spiritual position of the fall.

b. If they are IN CHRIST THEY ARE re-created/born again/new creations.

Don’t you think Cathoholic, an “imperfect union with Christ,” without initially justified, re-created/born again and sanctified is a perfect union with Adam on the spiritual position of the fall?

Cathoholic, do you still believe an “imperfect union with Christ?”

OUR SPIRITUAL POSITION DEPENDS ON:-

a. IN ADAM we are on the spiritual position of the fall.

b. IF God has baptized us INTO CHRIST then and ONLY THEN we are in union with Christ.

c. ONLY BAPTISM makes the union between a person and Christ.
Someone can be IN ADAM or IN CHRIST. – There can be NO in between position or an “imperfect union” with Christ.

Cathoholic, do you agree?

With love in Christ,
LH.

 

[Cathoholic]

OK Lion Heart. Let’s look at one point at a time.

You said:

THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ON:- WHAT IT MEANS BEING IN ADAM? – 1 Cor.15:22a

a. It means, being on the spiritual position of the fall. – Rom.5:18a.

b. Can do nothing. – John 15:5b.

c. Not in the State of Grace. – Rom.5:18a.

Collectively this is just people who are NOT in a state of justifying grace.

Nobody is saying we can do anything apart from Jesus Christ!

You keep saying:

They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.”

Just WHO and what post are you trying to address here??

If you are not trying to address anyone WHY keep bringing this up?

Again. NOBODY here Catholic, Baptist, or any other Christian that I can tell is trying to say:

“OH YES! We can do things apart from Christ!”

No.

So I am baffled as why you keep hammering this point home. We all, already agree on this. It is not a point of contention on this thread (at least among the Christians).

The real issue is HOW does Christ work so people CAN do something. OK?

For example you brought up Romans 5:18a.

**
ROMANS 5:18 (NIV)** Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

This is talking about original sin and Christ’s work on Calvary. We all know that.

So would you conclude Moses or Abraham or many other PRE-Calvary Old Testament “Hall of Famers” are labeled as (?) . . . . .

**They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense . . . **

Is that how you think of Moses or Abraham (or countless others)?

NO! Of course not.

Yet they were all acting with help from God before Jesus’ sacrifice upon Calvary.

So the issue Lion Heart isn’t can they do anything apart from Christ. They can’t. Jesus says so (as you pointed out in John 15:5b).

The issue is HOW did/does Christ work in people who are not yet in a state of justifying grace.

The issue IS HOW did/does Christ work in people who are still on the “BEING ON THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL IN ADAM” as you say.

The issue is HOW did Christ work on people before Calvary (like Moses) and people like you and I (before we were Baptized and placed by Jesus in a state of justifying grace)?

And the answer is God’s prevenient grace as I have shown before.

The answer is God making the first move.

But just because God draws us to Him, does NOT mean we are already justified Lion Heart.

Even the Baptists would say this is false. Even the Baptists would say: “You gotta except Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and Savior”.

Even the Baptists affirm people need God’s prevenient grace and this is not the same as justifying grace that comes from being born again (being born of water and the Spirit to the Catholic, “accepting Jesus into your heart” to the Baptist).

Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc. all affirm the need for God’s prevenient grace.

There were heretics in the early Church who denied this need. They are Semi-Pelagians.

Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc. are not Semi-Pelagians.

So I really don’t know what your point is when you keep hammering this point (above) home.

If you can explain it without over-emphasizing everything (because when you emphasize everything, you in effect emphasize nothing), such as with overuse of capital letters (which makes it even more murky what you are trying to emphasize because so many words are capitalized), I would be interested in hearing a brief encapsulation of it.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I agree with you Cathoholic. The issue is how did/DOES God work in people who are still “BEING ON THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL IN ADAM.”

The way God worked with Moses or Abraham (or countless others) not much is revealed in the Scriptures. We know they all acted with help from God by the Holy Spirit and His prevenient grace.

That old system is fulfilled. In the new system God is dealing with people in DIFFERENT way.
The new way is described and explained in the New Testament which is UP TO DATE for us today.

In the New Testament we have a lot more revelation and teaching which explains the way God delivers people from the spiritual position of the fall IN ADAM to IN CHRIST to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.
Of course we are still don’t know everything about it. We know only what God has revealed to us.

I try to explain step by step the way God justifies us, re-creates us/born again and sanctifies us, IN THIS PROCESS He simultaneously delivers us from the spiritual position of the fall IN ADAM to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ which is IN CHRIST.

According to Catholic doctrine:-
We must be justified and must be in the state of grace/born again/being IN CHRIST before we can do a single act of work which is count for anything. Please see also: John 15:5b.

Cathoholic, there is NO other way of being IN CHRIST then Baptism into Christ. Being IN CHRIST means:- Have been baptized into Christ.
This is the very reason I emphasize Rom.15:5b and 1 Cor.2:14.

NO ONE can be IN CHRAST without Baptism into Christ and if someone is baptized into Christ then he is justified and born from the water and the Spirit/Born Again.
There is NO OTHER WAY from after Pentecost/the Birthday of the Church!!! – This is a new system, described in the New Testament.
The old system is fulfilled and doesn’t exist any longer.

Cathoholic, if you know a way being IN CHRIST without baptism into Christ, please explain it to us.
Otherwise we shouldn’t and cannot say, the catechumens are IN CHRIST/in union with Christ without their baptism into Christ because that is a theological impossibility.

For the sake of those who study for the first time what it means to be Born Again, I present the basic facts of the subject.

The New Testament teaching on:-
What it means being on the spiritual position of the fall IN ADAM?

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

According to the New Testament: This is above the PRESENT SPIRITUAL REALITY of those who are IN ADAM. – Up to date for today.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

By prevenient grace, God justifies us, re-creates us/born again and sanctifies us.
He also simultaneously delivers us from the spiritual position of the fall IN ADAM to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ, which is IN CHRIST JESUS.
These are God’s parts to do in our Baptism into Christ.

Below we can see the fine details of the work of God in our Baptism:-

a. RE-CREATED/BORN AGAIN:- At our re-creation God has MADE us sons of God. – Ez.36:26-27; Eph.2:1; Col.2:10-13.
From SPIRITUAL DEATH God has made us SPIRITUALLY ALIVE IN CHRIST JESUS. – Eph.2:1; Col.2:13; 1 Cor.15:22b.

This above is THE FIRST step in baptism. God makes the candidate SPIRITUALLY ALIVE IN CHRIST. – This first step in baptism, ENABLE the candidate to receive the things from the Spirit of God.

b. Conversion into Christianity is always a two person job.

• One is a Christian who explains the Word of God to the candidate.
• The other person is God who gives His gift of formed faith, by His prevenient grace which opens the candidate’s heart and mind and prepares his will to freely accept the gift of formed faith. – Canon 4 Council of Orange (529 AD); John 6:44-45.

c. JUSTIFIED:- At our justification God has DECLARED us just and declared us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24.

d. SANCTIFIED:- At our sanctification God has MADE us holy. – 1 Cor.6:11; Rev.1:5.

e. God has taken us out from the power of darkness/Satan’s kingdom and raised us up together, and made us sit together IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS – Eph.2:6; Col.1:13.

To clearly understand our Baptism:-

At the BEGINNING of God’s work/process in our baptism we are IN ADAM and we are on the spiritual position of the fall in the kingdom of Satan.

At the COMPLETION of God’s work/process in our baptism we are sit together IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS, we are on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ and we have the mind of Christ. – 1 Cor.2:12-13, 15-16.

Quote: “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
We are inserted into the Body of Christ by our baptism and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Conversion and Baptism practically a short event.

Please see Acts 2:41-47 the 3000 new Christians. + Added to the Church daily those who were saved.

They were all baptize ASAP as they should, because God has already done His part of their Baptism, by Baptizing them into the Body of Christ/into Christ and justified them, re-created them and sanctified them.
2 Cor.5:17; “If ANYONE is in Christ he is a NEW CREATION.”

Justification, re-creation/born again and sanctification is one composite with three parts in it.
If we understand the function of each part, we can have a deeper understanding.

ONE OF THE MOST CRUCIAL THEOLOGICAL FACTS:-

Every member of the entire human race is IN ADAM on the spiritual position of the fall, or IN CHRIST Re-Created/Born Again.

Our spiritual state, justification or lack of it, re-creation/born again or lack of it and sanctification or lack of it DETERMINES if we are united with ADAM or we are united with CHRIST.

Cathoholic, your realization that the catechumens must be united with Christ, with other words, must be IN CHRIST is correct, and this is the KEY about the whole matter.

The New Testament and Catholic teaching on:-
When is the EXACT POINT when someone crosses the line from IN ADAM to IN CHRIST?

Justification by Faith Alone by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasize mine.

According to the above facts, as well as the teaching of the New Testament:-

AT THAT POINT when God gives us His gift of formed faith THAT IS THE POINT when He performs His part of our baptism and that is THE EXACT POINT when we cross the line from “IN ADAM” to “IN CHRIST.”

The spirituality of the New Covenant age is summed up in the following three Bible verses, it is UP TO DATE for us today:-

1 Cor.15:22; “For as IN ADAM all die, even so IN CHRIST all shall be made alive.”

2 Cor.5:17; “If ANYONE is in Christ he is a NEW CREATION.”

John 15:5; “… He who abides IN ME, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

Cathoholic, I’m sure, from the above picture you can see:
We should Baptize our catechumens ASAP in the way it is done in Acts 2:41-47; Acts 8:35-38. – NO ONE can be IN CHRIST/in union with Christ (in any shape or form) apart from Baptism into Christ.

Cathoholic, if I have made any mistake in my post, please correct me.

With love in Christ,
LH.

 

[ckutac]

Again I have to state that being baptised and being born again are two distinct things.

When I was baptised I first stood before the church and confessed my faith in Christ I was standing beside the pastor of the church in water. After I had confessed that I believed in Jesus Christ that pastor then said the I baptise you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. He then pushed me backward and under the water and then lifted me back out by standing me back up and I walked out of the water. Needless to say I was compleately wet. This is what it was like to be baptised.

I notice that many keep saying that baptism is what saves us.

If I am understanding what many of you who are catholic are saying then what I have just described to you is a born again experiance.

I do not think that I am describing the experiance that the title to this thread is asking .

Do you who are talking about baptism think that I am answering the question that this thread is asking which is titled

WHATS IT LIKE TO BE BORN AGAIN?

I will be nice, I will agree to leave out ALL tradition, and lets deal ONLY with what the bible specifically says about being born again.

Can you please give me one versus from the bible, that states that being baptized and being born again are different?

Because, I am seeing Jesus specifically address what it means to be born again. And he said it is being born of water AND spirit. He says nothing about it being an experience, but instead something that you do.

Here is a hint, I have no problem leaving tradition out, because all you have for your belief is some man made tradition, a tradition that even the early protestant reformers would not recognize or even agree with.

 

[crochet_lady]

Being born-again and being baptized Are two different things. “Repent and be baptized” What is a person repenting Of and to Who are they repenting? That is the 1st part.

When Nicodemus was asking Jesus about salvation – he Thought that Jesus was referring to being Physically born Twice. And Jesus corrected him by saying 1st that a person is born physically and Then a person is able to be born Again but this time it’s Spiritually.
That is what is meant by being born of the Water 1st and then of the Spirit.
So – two different events.

Salvation Is a personal decision, choice, a belief that takes place in a person’s heart – a person needs to realize a need For ‘being saved’. What is the person being saved From – or saved For. God’s Word tells us that there are one of two places a person Will spend eternity at / in. Heaven or hell. The one place / heaven is where God is – John 14:6 tells us that a place is being prepared for believers in heaven – which is where Jesus Christ / God are – preparing a place for believers for eternity. The other place is hell. That place is only meant for satan and his followers. So – while here on earth – a person chooses to either accept God’s gift of salvation From hell or to Not accept the gift and end up In hell.

Salvation is an ‘experience’ that takes place within the person. Being baptized is the Outward Action that a person Does to show what has already taken place in their heart. And, yes, there Are verses that seem to indicate that baptism is a sealing process of. I guess That depends on what a person is placing their faith In. Baptism isn’t meant to be something We do to Help God secure our salvation. Because God doesn’t Need our help. But we Do need to be willing to share with others what Christ Has done for us. But that is Not a ‘good work’ on our part. It’s simply kind of a way we can say ‘thank you’ to God for His gift to us. A believer would Want others to know about God’s gift that’s available if they don’t already know. And That way – others can Also have the inner peace that We’ve gotten.

And This has nothing to do with some ‘man-made tradition’.

God’s Word Also says that a person’s life will Show in Some way that the decision Has been made in their heart – Because there Will be Fruit seen in the life of the believer. Love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, etc. Those are characteristics that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Has taken place. There Will be a desire to read God’s Word and a desire to Share with others.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Being born-again and being baptized Are two different things.

Not according to scripture.

“Repent and be baptized” What is a person repenting Of and to Who are they repenting?

Are you claiming that repenting is the same thing as being born again?
Why do you make such a claim? Is there some evidence you can offer as to why you’d believe this?

Or is it a non-sequitor?

When Nicodemus was asking Jesus about salvation – he Thought that Jesus was referring to being Physically born Twice. And Jesus corrected him by saying 1st that a person is born physically and Then a person is able to be born Again but this time it’s Spiritually.
That is what is meant by being born of the Water 1st and then of the Spirit.
So – two different events.

Nope.
First, the Greek grammar doesn’t support this. From Are Catholics Born Again?:

These different ways of talking about being “born again” describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being “born of water and the Spirit.” In Greek, this phrase is, literally, “born of water and Spirit,” indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

So, no, not two different events. One event.

Second, the Early Church NEVER had any beliefs like those you espouse, which were made up very recently. (Literally, tradition of men which nullifies the Word of God.)

There are many Church Fathers who proclaimed the belief that the Catholic Church now holds (see the referenced article for example); I challenge you to find ONE that supports your claims.

But this has been said before in response to your posts. It would be more beneficial if you’d address the answers, rather than ignore them and come back and re-post things that have already been disproven.

Salvation is an ‘experience’ that takes place within the person.

Yes. And no.

Just as sin is a state of mind; a posture of the will, so too is baptism and repentance an experience that relates to the will.

But the actual sin is what we are judged for. (This is over-simplistic in that fostering the sin in your mind is also sinful.)

Look for instance at the sin of Cain. God had warned him not to do what he was planning on doing, but it wasn’t until he actually committed the sin that God punished him.

Being baptized is the Outward Action that a person Does to show what has already taken place in their heart. And, yes, there Are verses that seem to indicate that baptism is a sealing process of.

They “seem to” indicate this because that is what is actually stated in the scriptures.
Perhaps you could address these? Why don’t your beliefs comport with what is actually stated in the scriptures? Ours do.

I guess That depends on what a person is placing their faith In.

Well, if one puts their faith in the written word of God, as protestants claim, then they should believe that “baptism now saves us.”

Baptism isn’t meant to be something We do to Help God secure our salvation. Because God doesn’t Need our help.

God DESIRES our help.
Read the scriptures. Why does God NEED Naaman to “help” him cure his leprosy? (2Kings 5). Why can’t God cure him without requiring him to actually wash in the Jordan seven times?

He doesn’t of course, but He WANTS it to be that way.

You are pitting YOUR will against His.

But we Do need to be willing to share with others what Christ Has done for us.

Why? Can’t He just teach every single person Himself?

Of course He can. But he wants us to share our love for Him and for each other.

But that is Not a ‘good work’ on our part.

It’s not???

Why not?

It’s simply kind of a way we can say ‘thank you’ to God for His gift to us.

Yes. Through a ‘good work’ on our part.

A believer would Want others to know about God’s gift that’s available if they don’t already know. And That way – others can Also have the inner peace that We’ve gotten.

Fine. But that doesn’t show that it isn’t a good work.

And This has nothing to do with some ‘man-made tradition’.

It most surely does. A recent man-made tradition at that.

 

[jmcrae]

Being born-again and being baptized Are two different things. “Repent and be baptized” What is a person repenting Of and to Who are they repenting? That is the 1st part.

When a person asks for Baptism, they repent of their sins, and they come to Christ. If the person is age 7 or older, they repent of their actual sins. People under the age of seven have no actual sins to repent of, so they can be baptized without repentance of sin - without any sin, there is nothing for them to repent of.

When Nicodemus was asking Jesus about salvation – he Thought that Jesus was referring to being Physically born Twice. And Jesus corrected him by saying 1st that a person is born physically and Then a person is able to be born Again but this time it’s Spiritually.
That is what is meant by being born of the Water 1st and then of the Spirit.
So – two different events.

And yet, all of the Apostles, all the thousands who followed Jesus during His lifetime, and every Christian who ever lived up until the time of the Anti-baptists in the 1600s in England believed and understood this to be the Sacrament of Baptism.

My question is, why did it take so long for anyone to understand that Jesus was referring to two different things, here?

Also, what has water to do with natural childbirth? The “water” that breaks in childbirth is not what most people would understand as being water - apart from being wet, it has no resemblance to water. Jesus, being our Creator, would have known that.

Salvation Is a personal decision, choice, a belief that takes place in a person’s heart – a person needs to realize a need For ‘being saved’.

While it’s certainly true that people have to make a conscious decision to follow Christ, salvation is much, much more than simply an exercise in positive thinking. Jesus Himself teaches us that not all those who say “Lord, Lord” are going to be saved, but only those who do His will - including being members of His Church, and obedience to all of His commandments - not just those we happen to agree with, or happen to like.

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart. You asked:

Cathoholic, if you know a way being IN CHRIST without baptism into Christ, please explain it to us.

Answer: I know of no other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude.

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

• Footnote 60 from CCC 1257 above is John 3:5.

John 3:5 is below.

JOHN 3:5 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(CCC and Scripture bold and ul mine)

 

[Lion_Heart]

Lion Heart. You asked:
Answer: I know of no other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude.
CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

• Footnote 60 from CCC 1257 above is John 3:5.

John 3:5 is below.
JOHN 3:5 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(CCC and Scripture bold and ul mine)

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I have to admit, this is a clever answer.

My knowledge in our dialogue about what it like to be born again and Baptism really increased.
Thanks you our dialogue and God Bless.

With love in Christ,
LH.