M
Montalban
Guest
If you plan, then it’s not totally natural.
- Status
N
NotWorthy
Guest
But you are still allowing nature to take it’s course. That’s why it’s called “natural”
My priest has a joke he loves to tell.
Q: Do you know what you call a couple who use NFP?
A: Parents
My priest has a joke he loves to tell.
Q: Do you know what you call a couple who use NFP?
A: Parents
M
Montalban
Guest
But it’s not allowing nature to take it’s course.
People who practice this are saying in effect “We are trying to avoid having a baby”. In order to achieve this ends, or rather to prevent a particular outcome they then plan when is the best time to have sex.
Sure, the actual sexal process is ‘natural’ to an extent, but it’s as much saying you’re following nature as when you consciously breed dogs.
He/She’s plagarised Monty Python who said that the only reason the RCC allow it is because it doesn’t work.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
NFP works within the way God designed us, that is, within the cycles of fertility and infertility that He planned into our biology.
Contraception seeks to thwart God’s design by re-designing our biology to suit ourselves, that is, to create our own cycles of fertility and infertility (or, in some cases, no fertility whatsoever). It is essentially telling God He made a mistake when He designed us, a mistake we will correct for Him.
In the first case, one plans to use the cycle of natural fertility and infertility as God designed it. In the second case, one seeks to undermine that cycle.
I don’t understand what you’re objecting to. Sex is always planned, even if it’s planned just a moment or two before it happens. If you’re saying it’s unnatural because it’s planned, that makes all sexual acts unnatural.
Because it’s called *Natural *Family *Planning, *you seem to think “natural” describes the planning. It doesn’t. “Natural” describes the system within which one is doing the planning.
Contraception seeks to thwart God’s design by re-designing our biology to suit ourselves, that is, to create our own cycles of fertility and infertility (or, in some cases, no fertility whatsoever). It is essentially telling God He made a mistake when He designed us, a mistake we will correct for Him.
In the first case, one plans to use the cycle of natural fertility and infertility as God designed it. In the second case, one seeks to undermine that cycle.
I don’t understand what you’re objecting to. Sex is always planned, even if it’s planned just a moment or two before it happens. If you’re saying it’s unnatural because it’s planned, that makes all sexual acts unnatural.
Because it’s called *Natural *Family *Planning, *you seem to think “natural” describes the planning. It doesn’t. “Natural” describes the system within which one is doing the planning.
G
gelsbern
Guest
I think you misunderstand a bit. It is natural because there is no manufactured artificial contraceptive being used. Also, even if you time things perfectly, there is still a chance to conceive. Granted there is a chance to conceive even when using contraceptives, but that is what makes the difference. If you prefer, using condoms, the pill, etc… could be considered “Manufactured Family Planning” as compared to allowing the marital act to happen naturally.
The person said priest, there are only male priests in the Catholic Church, so the He/She is unnecessary.
C
chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace,
If we plan and plant an orchard we use the wisdom God has enlightened us with to exercise control over nature by a means which still respects restraint and discipline. These are the hallmarks of one who still exercises discipline over his passions and is not a slave to them. One who cannot exercise such restraint and discipline turns to cruder forms of contraception without any form of restraint or discipline. This is an anathema to a life which seeks to cultivate dispassion and thus is sinful.
As an Orthodox Christian, you know these teachings, and yet you allow your petty agenda of divisiveness to blind you and in turn attempt to blind others to it’s wisdom. I say ‘shame on you’!
P
Philthy
Guest
- In order to have a focused, meaningful discussion you will need to establish that planning is not part of nature. In my limited intellect I do not see planning as unnatural - but I could be wrong. As an example of planning in nature I could site the fact that birds build nests in anticipation of laying eggs. They build the nest planning to raise chicks in it, and it is done naturally.
- As it stands, you have made an unsubstantiated claim which appears to be false and is easily refuted as follows: Planning is natural, therefore NFP is not unnatural by virtue of the fact that it involves planning.
- Please choose your words carefully and articulate exactly what you are trying to say if you wish to have a focused, meaningful discussion. :yup:
J
JFonseka
Guest
The question should be, how can it NOT be ‘natural’, it’s attempting to use the natural cycle of the woman and other things in accordance with the time of the month and the woman’s body, which is obviously natural.
The major error here was assuming that just because it’s ‘planned’ it’s not natural, which really doesn’t make much sense.
Good responses by Kay Cee and the others.
The major error here was assuming that just because it’s ‘planned’ it’s not natural, which really doesn’t make much sense.
Good responses by Kay Cee and the others.
1
1ke
Guest
Why do you say that it is unnatural? We plan when to plant crops and we plan when to harvest the crops all based on observing nature and determining the best time to do so.
The reaons it is called natural family planning is because you observe the woman’s *natural *cycle of fertility. Based on those observations, you make decisions.
We observe many things in nature and make decisions based on those observations. Nothing unnatural about that, intellect and will are the two natural principles of our soul.
B
BeeSweet
Guest
How’s that so?
It’s totally natural for human beings to plan, that’s how God made us. And the use of NFP is totally compatible with God’s plan.
What’s so “natural” about natural family planning is that it considers the natural cycle of a woman’s fertility and enables couples to use that knowledge to plan their family.
I
iamscifimike
Guest
NFP is not to be used as a means on contraception.
Neither method “works” 100%, so the natural/artificial distinction must be in the method. I don’t think your dog breeding analogy is too far off.
plagiarism? I doubt he is claiming authorship here. It is a well known joke.
M
manualman
Guest
Montalban,
As usual, analogy is a nice way of help to see it. Like many Americans, I weigh a bit more than I should for ideal health. I’d like to lose some of that weight. Totally acceptable goal, right? I’ve discovered a novel new idea: I can eat whatever I want and totally gorge myself and still lose weight! All I need to do is go into the bathroom right afterwards and puke it all up. OK, this is bad for my body. But what if modern science found a totally safe way to add a drain valve to my stomach? Would it be OK to lose weight this way? Catholicism says no. It is a violation of God’s design for the function of the human body to grab the pleasure of eating purely for its own sake and use technological means to circumvent the natural outcome of that eating. On the other hand, it is both acceptable and healthy for me to learn to eat as much as I need and exercise to get to the weight I want.
In both plans, I would lose weight. But the ends don’t justify the means. Means MATTER.
In married sex, like in eating, there is more than just pleasure going on. When there is legitimate need to avoid pregnancy, the couple can do so, but it requires sacrifice and discipline. That sacrifice is what protects married couples from sinking into an unhealthy gluttony of objectivizing each other, which is what contraception encourages.
Frankly I’m quite surprised that the Eastern Orthodox with its longer ascetic tradition so thoroughly fails to grasp this reality.
P.S. 8 years of marriage now, using NFP the whole time. When we discerned a need to delay pregnancy, we didn’t get pregnant. When we decided there was no reason not to avoid, we threw out the charts and quickly got pregnant - three times so far. Go ahead and keep telling yourself NFP doesn’t work. Maybe it will make your conscience feel better!
As usual, analogy is a nice way of help to see it. Like many Americans, I weigh a bit more than I should for ideal health. I’d like to lose some of that weight. Totally acceptable goal, right? I’ve discovered a novel new idea: I can eat whatever I want and totally gorge myself and still lose weight! All I need to do is go into the bathroom right afterwards and puke it all up. OK, this is bad for my body. But what if modern science found a totally safe way to add a drain valve to my stomach? Would it be OK to lose weight this way? Catholicism says no. It is a violation of God’s design for the function of the human body to grab the pleasure of eating purely for its own sake and use technological means to circumvent the natural outcome of that eating. On the other hand, it is both acceptable and healthy for me to learn to eat as much as I need and exercise to get to the weight I want.
In both plans, I would lose weight. But the ends don’t justify the means. Means MATTER.
In married sex, like in eating, there is more than just pleasure going on. When there is legitimate need to avoid pregnancy, the couple can do so, but it requires sacrifice and discipline. That sacrifice is what protects married couples from sinking into an unhealthy gluttony of objectivizing each other, which is what contraception encourages.
Frankly I’m quite surprised that the Eastern Orthodox with its longer ascetic tradition so thoroughly fails to grasp this reality.
P.S. 8 years of marriage now, using NFP the whole time. When we discerned a need to delay pregnancy, we didn’t get pregnant. When we decided there was no reason not to avoid, we threw out the charts and quickly got pregnant - three times so far. Go ahead and keep telling yourself NFP doesn’t work. Maybe it will make your conscience feel better!
B
BeeSweet
Guest
Whoa ~ you’re saying here that when my husband and I choose to have sex with knowledge of my fertility cycle, we are in effect no different than a couple of breeding dogs?
It’s a sad poverty that knowledge of a woman’s fertility cycle is not common knowledge, and worse still this attitude which so many people have against us learning it. Women should understand their fertility cycles at least as well as they know what to eat, and how to exercise. This is basic body knowledge, we should know it as well as we know how to care for our teeth.
If you received a message from your wife during the workday which said she’d be interested in having sex with you that evening, and then the two of you planned on doing so, would that be unnatural? Would it be more or less natural if part of your decision to have sex or not that evening were based on what part of your wife’s fertility cycle she was experiencing that day? If she were menstruating, and you planned not to have sex because she was in this part of her fertility cycle, is that unnatural?
I don’t understand why people want to be so uncharitable to those of us who abstain from sexual relations with our spouses during a fertile time if we are postponing getting pregnant for a period of time. We’re not tinkering with our hormones or using condoms, both of which are totally unnatural. Frankly, when my husband and I choose to have sex is none of anyone’s business! Don’t you think there’s enough pressure on us from society already with out you stoking the fire needlessly?
Are you as uncharitable to people who use NFP to have children as you are to people who use NFP to space their children? Are they no better than breeding dogs because they deliberately time their sexual relations to match up to the wife’s fertile time so that she will become pregnant?
Why can’t people just be kind?
M
manualman
Guest
beesweet, don’t be offended. Montalban is from the Eastern Orthodox tradition which does not share our convictions on the matter of contraception. It’s hard to know if he is just trolling to provoke reactions or experiencing genuine concerns about the issue, but the Christlike thing is to assume the latter
C
Corki
Guest
In English, this sentance doesn’t even make sense.
You could say, “If you plan, then it’s not spontaneous” or “If you use chemicals, it’s not natural.” Those sentances make sense.
A lot of natural things are planned and unnatural things are accidents.
M
mercygate
Guest
NFP allows for an unhindered, unthwarted, unobstructed natural human sexual act. The sexual act is consummated without barriers, equipmet, or drugs. The individual sexual act is done “according to nature.”
Couples may have serious reasons to postpoine conception of a child. Following the natural working of the human reproductive system is by no means “unnatural” for beings with a rational nature, even if it does involve planning.
M
Montalban
Guest
So I take it you’d not have any doctors or nurses interfering in the birth – because they’d be going against God’s design?
Indeed! Thank you!
But it’s not natural if you’re interacting with it in a planned way.
M
Montalban
Guest
No equipment? So you do it out in the bushes?
There’s nothing natural, when you interact with it in a planned way.
It’s like talking to a class about gravity and releasing a ball. You may think that you’re demonstrating gravity, but you’ve caused the experiment to be in being by interacting because the ball’s not naturally suspended above the ground in the first place. On this you should reach Chaos by Gleick
M
Montalban
Guest
If you built a giant skywalk through the tree-canopy and conducted nature walks along it and everyone was in awe of nature that would be fine, but it would be forgetting that in order to get to that point you planned and built the skywalk – because you’re not naturally 40 metres above the ground amongst the tree canopy.
The conception of a child can’t begin to take place until you undertake the sexual act… which is you making the conscious effort to start that process. That’s where the planning takes place.
Sure, once the man has ejaculated, nature then takes over.
What about all the couples that start taking folic acid to reduce birth defects, or other herbal/medicinal processes in order to help? This is un-natural according to your church and therefore wrong.
You must therefore just allow for God’s planning and if you get a child with a birth defect, so be it.
M
Montalban
Guest
It does.
Planning is a thought out process
Natural is something that just occurs.
If you plan to have a car trip, and you accidentally drive off a bridge the accident here is natural, but it wasn’t part of the plan.
And, you can’t plan to have an accident.
- Status