What's OSAS theology?

[Robbinson]

I think free will has to do with the unregenerate choosing life based on his own free will… without any outside influences. Now, if we agree that God the Holy Spirit is required for a sinner who is in enmity with God (dead in His sins and trespasses) to come to Christ, then how does the Holy Spirit enable the sinner to freely choose Christ? Does the Spirit open the hearts of certain sinners like Lydia to believe in the good news? When the unregenerate is being influenced by God the Holy Spirit, maybe the will of man in no longer free at that point? Let’s skip ahead in regards to Joshua and see Romans 9, 10, 11 in regards to apostate jews and the true jew (Rom 2). So which Israelite believed in an effectual way according to Romans 11?

But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. -

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” - Jer 31

Amen - Jer 31:31 is my favorite verse in scripture - understandable, perhaps, as a Jewish believer.

That being said, to answer your preceding quesiton, the Holy Spirit is necessary, as you stated (as did I in earlier posts) for us to accept God and come to faith. When the Holy Spirit acts on us, we become new creatures in Christ. We are cleansed of our sin, but our nature remains “wounded” (thus our continuing urge to sin), but because of His work, we know right from wrong and we have an urge to repent from sin when we fall. This puts us in a position to “choose”. Before the action of the Holy Spirit we could not choose God - on that we agree. After the action of the Holy Spirit, I believe (and Catholics believe) that we are in a position again, like Adam (we are restored to Adam like state) to choose God or not, and you, I imagine believe we no longer have the power to choose or perhaps you would stated can’t help but choose God (which is the same thing as not empowered to choose).

The difficulty, I believe, with that/your interpretation/belief is that many of the verses in the NT specifically addressing repenting (voluntary act), choosing to follow Christ or not (choice), to believers warning about falling away or warnings about knowing the truth and falling away, or being in the rootstock and being grafted out, or perservering and “finishing the race” or working out our salvation with fear and trembling - are all made void. And for those who try to interpet those verses narrowly as applying to unbelievers (which when you step back, really is an unnatural interpretation when you read “context”, it is also inconsistent as I stated with God’s apparent plan in the Hebrew scriptures which always involved “choice”.

Anyway - we have beaten this to death I suspect.

Thanks for the replies.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[2nd_Adam]

Anyway - we have beaten this to death I suspect.

Thanks for the replies.

Blessings,

Brian

We are just getting started…

John 6

On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[Robbinson]

We are just getting started…

John 6

On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Yes - no one, no thing, no third party, no principality take take us away from Jesus (except we can walk away). Those who believe, and continue to believe, will not fall away - but we can reject Christ through our own free will.

There are those who cast out demons in Jesus name - or are rejected by him. How is that? Doesn’t it take the power of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons? Jesus said as such in his response to the Pharasees who accused him of casting out deamons with the power of Satan - he said that isn’t possible. And how can someone have the power of the Holy Spirit (in your way of thinking) and then not be saved? The answer is clear - they believed, and then fell away of their own free will.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes - no one, no thing, no third party, no principality take take us away from Jesus (except we can walk away). Those who believe, and continue to believe, will not fall away - but we can reject Christ through our own free will.

There are those who cast out demons in Jesus name - or are rejected by him. How is that? Doesn’t it take the power of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons? Jesus said as such in his response to the Pharasees who accused him of casting out deamons with the power of Satan - he said that isn’t possible. And how can someone have the power of the Holy Spirit (in your way of thinking) and then not be saved? The answer is clear - they believed, and then fell away of their own free will.

Blessings,

Brian

Okay, if you believe in an apparent doctrine of free will, then why are you able to believe in Christ and many of your friends and neighbors do not believe? Please answer my question.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Robbinson:

Amen - Jer 31:31 is my favorite verse in scripture - understandable, perhaps,** as a Jewish believer**.

Robbinson, as a Messianic Christian, would you be able to tell me if OSAS was something that the Jewish people believed in?

God bless you

 

[Robbinson]

Okay, if you believe in an apparent doctrine of free will, then why are you able to believe in Christ and many of your friends and neighbors do not believe? Please answer my question.

Very simply - First, the Holy Spirit must act on our spirit to enable us to respond to God in faith. The spirit blows where he will like and when he determines. For some it happens earlier in life than others. I believe that ultimately, God calls each of us as he “desires that all be saved”.

But when the Holy Spirit does call upon us, we must cooperate with the Spirit with our will - thus, some will respond, and some will not - its a choice. If you ask many if not most of your friends, including non-believers, I imagine most, if honest, will recall moments of their lives when something drew then to seek God or wonder. Most, sadly, reject this, some respond to that call. The more we respond, the more God gives, ultimately leading to saving faith.

The drawing the spirit is unmerited (and act of grace), our response is a choice.

Calvinism preaches irresistable grace - once called, we can’t help but respond - no free will and not true expression of love.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[2nd_Adam]

Very simply - First, the Holy Spirit must act on our spirit to enable us to respond to God in faith. The spirit blows where he will like and when he determines. For some it happens earlier in life than others. I believe that ultimately, God calls each of us as he “desires that all be saved”.

But when the Holy Spirit does call upon us, we must cooperate with the Spirit with our will - thus, some will respond, and some will not - its a choice. If you ask many if not most of your friends, including non-believers, I imagine most, if honest, will recall moments of their lives when something drew then to seek God or wonder. Most, sadly, reject this, some respond to that call. The more we respond, the more God gives, ultimately leading to saving faith.

The drawing the spirit is unmerited (and act of grace), our response is a choice.

Calvinism preaches irresistable grace - once called, we can’t help but respond - no free will and not true expression of love.

Blessings,

Brian

"I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace…Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, “I ascribe my change wholly to God.” - Charles Spurgeon

With the doctrine of apparent free will, you cannot boast that salvation is all of God… to God be the glory alone, since you are the determining factor of your own salvation. It’s a tough thelogy to grow in your affection for God if man is sovereign in his own salvation.

spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

 

[Robbinson]

With the doctrine of apparent free will, you cannot boast that salvation is all of God… to God be the glory alone, since you are the determining factor of your own salvation. It’s a tough thelogy to grow in your affection for God if man is sovereign in his own salvation.

spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

I disagree with this statement. Our salvation is due to our faith, which is a product of the unmerited grace of God. We can’t work for it, and we don’t deserve it - so we praise and thank God for His mercy.

That being said, once this grace is bestowed upon us - yes, we must, I believe (and Catholic doctrine teaches) cooperate with the Holy Spirit to grow in our justification and retain that salvation. This does not jeopordize the “soverignty of God” as He is soveign and chose this plan of salvation. If He had chosen a different plan, that would be the best plan because He would have chosen it.

Catholic teaching is consistent with the overiding principle that permeates the Hebrew scriptures and NT that we act, ulimately, by choice.

I’ve never been able to understand how the reform theology reconicles scriptures clear teaching that “God desires that all be saved” with their belief that only those chosen by God (elect) can be saved (and those “will” be saved) and all others “will” be damned. If God desire we be saved, he will provide us with an opportunity to enter the narrow gate. Similary, why would Jesus urge us to enter the “narrow gate” if it was impossible? and if those he chose would always enter it, why preach about it?

Its a circular theology really.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[2nd_Adam]

I disagree with this statement. Our salvation is due to our faith, which is a product of the unmerited grace of God. We can’t work for it, and we don’t deserve it - so we praise and thank God for His mercy.

That being said, once this grace is bestowed upon us - yes, we must, I believe (and Catholic doctrine teaches) cooperate with the Holy Spirit to grow in our justification and retain that salvation. This does not jeopordize the “soverignty of God” as He is soveign and chose this plan of salvation. If He had chosen a different plan, that would be the best plan because He would have chosen it.

Catholic teaching is consistent with the overiding principle that permeates the Hebrew scriptures and NT that we act, ulimately, by choice.

I’ve never been able to understand how the reform theology reconicles scriptures clear teaching that “God desires that all be saved” with their belief that only those chosen by God (elect) can be saved (and those “will” be saved) and all others “will” be damned. If God desire we be saved, he will provide us with an opportunity to enter the narrow gate. Similary, why would Jesus urge us to enter the “narrow gate” if it was impossible? and if those he chose would always enter it, why preach about it?

Its a circular theology really.

Blessings,

Brian

These are great questions and I encourage you to continue to wrestle with the Scriptures. Yes, God desires all to be saved, yet we know that not all will be saved. God is love, holy and just, and these attributes can be seen working together at Calvary. Here is where I believe the Catholic Faith is incorrect. This is what you wrote:

" That being said, once this grace is bestowed upon us - yes, we must, I believe (and Catholic doctrine teaches) cooperate with the Holy Spirit to grow in our justification and retain that salvation".

Protestant theology also teaches that salvation is a process. However, our justification is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ alone. We actually have Christ’s righteousness credited to our account upon believing (trusting) in the gospel at conversion. Yet, in the Christian life… we grow in personal holiness and personal righteousness through the work of God the Holy Spirit which Protestants call sanctification. We separate our legal standing before God which is based on Christ’s righteousness (justification) from the actual Christian growth process (sanctification). The Catholic Faith does not make this clear biblical distinction, which causes fear in many Catholics since we all struggle with sin in this life. Once we are united to Christ by faith, God is no longer our judge for condemnation of our past, present, and future sins, but rather our relationship changes to God as our Heavenly Father. As our Father, God will discipline us as his adopted children not for condemnation and eternal damnation, God disciplines us for our transformation into the image of His Son. Here is the best verse to remember:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5
Romans 8

 

[Robbinson]

These are great questions and I encourage you to continue to wrestle with the Scriptures. Yes, God desires all to be saved, yet we know that not all will be saved. God is love, holy and just, and these attributes can be seen working together at Calvary. Here is where I believe the Catholic Faith is incorrect. This is what you wrote:

" That being said, once this grace is bestowed upon us - yes, we must, I believe (and Catholic doctrine teaches) cooperate with the Holy Spirit to grow in our justification and retain that salvation".

Protestant theology also teaches that salvation is a process. However, our justification is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ alone. We actually have Christ’s righteousness credited to our account upon believing (trusting) in the gospel at conversion. Yet, in the Christian life… we grow in personal holiness and personal righteousness through the work of God the Holy Spirit which Protestants call sanctification. We separate our legal standing before God which is based on Christ’s righteousness (justification) from the actual Christian growth process (sanctification). The Catholic Faith does not make this clear biblical distinction, which causes fear in many Catholics since we all struggle with sin in this life. Once we are united to Christ by faith, God is no longer our judge for condemnation of our past, present, and future sins, but rather our relationship changes to God as our Heavenly Father. As our Father, God will discipline us as his adopted children not for condemnation and eternal damnation, God disciplines us for our transformation into the image of His Son. Here is the best verse to remember:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5
Romans 8

Indeed - most protestants believe justification is a “single act”, and then sanctification is an ongoing process. I think, and Catholic doctrine teaches, that they are both an ongoing process. There you have it

I do struggle with the scriptures - its great isn’t it. I hope you do too. This is why we need a teacher - this is why the Eunich said “how can I understand if I have noone to teach me?” That would be the apostles in his day, and the magisterium on ours.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[2nd_Adam]

Indeed - most protestants believe justification is a “single act”, and then sanctification is an ongoing process. I think, and Catholic doctrine teaches, that they are both an ongoing process. There you have it

I do struggle with the scriptures - its great isn’t it. I hope you do too. This is why we need a teacher - this is why the Eunich said “how can I understand if I have noone to teach me?” That would be the apostles in his day, and the magisterium on ours.

Blessings,

Brian

So, we both understand that salvation is a process done by God for His own glory and our good. He is faithful to complete the work that He started for His own name sake. Without an understanding of a forensic justification, Catholics will always fear that they could be eternally lost. However, the Word of God proclaims otherwise for those who are His adopted children. There is an eternal difference in those who profess Christ and those who are in Christ.

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Paul

Alive in Christ

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Paul

 

[elvisman]

So, we both understand that salvation is a process done by God for His own glory and our good. He is faithful to complete the work that He started for His own name sake. Without an understanding of a forensic justification, Catholics will always fear that they could be eternally lost. However, the Word of God proclaims otherwise for those who are His adopted children. There is an eternal difference in those who profess Christ and those who are in Christ.

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Paul

Alive in Christ

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Paul

Sorry**, my friend.** This was already answered in Post #9, which you did not answer.
I’ll refresh your memory.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
**“For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.”

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone*** who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."***

1 Cor. 9:27
**"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" **
- Paul is admitting here that even he could fall away.

(1 Cor. 4:4)
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me".
- Even Paul speaks of moral certitude of salvatio0n but not a guarantee.

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"
Again – we must edure.

**1 John 5:13 **
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
- John is saying to continue to believe. If you can’t fall away – how could you not continue to believe?

 

[elvisman]

Here are a few more . . .

1 Cor. 3:15** – The person spoken of here will be saved, but only as through fire. **

2 Tim. 2:11-13
“This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. **
If we are unfaithful* he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.”***
- IF we remain faithful and IF we endure - we shall also live and reign with Him. This means that we have to stick it out to the end.

Rom. 13:11** – “… salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.”**
**- **How is it possible to be just nearer to something we already have?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here are a few more . . .

1 Cor. 3:15** – The person spoken of here will be saved, but only as through fire. **

2 Tim. 2:11-13
“This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.
If we are unfaithful*** he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.”***
- IF we remain faithful and IF we endure - we shall also live and reign with Him. This means that we have to stick it out to the end**.**

Rom. 13:11** – “… salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.”**
- How is it possible to be just nearer to something we already have?

Context is everything! If you take single verses out of context (pre-text), then you loose God’s intended meaning of His revelation. The proper context is within the surrounding verses and chapters, the actual book, and the entire contents of the Holy Bible. When you don’t consider all of Scirpture… then this is what you appear to be doing:

Psalm 10:4B

“There is no God.”

Please at least consider posting the surrounding verses around your single verse to get some sort of proper context. Here is an example:

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

God is the Great Savior who is able to save all whom He intends to save… to the praise of His glorious sustaining grace. We don’t save ourselves, because if it was left up to us to finish the work that He has started… then each and every Christian would apostate.

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished. C.H. Spurgeon

Thanksgiving and Prayer

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Paul

 

[elvisman]

Context is everything! If you take single verses out of context (pre-text), then you loose God’s intended meaning of His revelation. The proper context is within the surrounding verses and chapters, the actual book, and the entire contents of the Holy Bible. When you don’t consider all of Scirpture… then this is what you appear to be doing:

Psalm 10:4B

“There is no God.”

Please at least consider posting the surrounding verses around your single verse to get some sort of proper context. Here is an example:

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

God is the Great Savior who is able to save all whom He intends to save… to the praise of His glorious sustaining grace. We don’t save ourselves, because if it was left up to us to finish the work that He has started… then each and every Christian would apostate.

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished. C.H. Spurgeon

Thanksgiving and Prayer

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Paul

Again - read the Bible in CONTEXT.

It is the CONTEXT of Scripture that proves you wrong. You can find a verse here and there that says what you want it to say - but the BULK of Scripture speaks against it.

This is the problem that many novice readers of Scripture fall into and the real tragedy of Protestantism. When I read these sorts of things, I immediately think of the words of Peter, when speaking about the Scriptures
"In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

**Consider your signature line, for example. You have completely taken Benedict XVI’s quote out of context to serve your purpose. When you read fully and understand what he was saying, you realize that he isn’t saying what you want him to say. **
Faith alone is only true if you understand what REAL faith is according to the Church’s 2000 years of teaching. It is not mere belief or intellectul assent - but a total surrender and obedience to that belief. The Church has always taught this,

So - are we to understand from your post(s) that you deny the fact that we are to persevere to be saved?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again - read the Bible in CONTEXT.

It is the CONTEXT of Scripture that proves you wrong. You can find a verse here and there that says what you want it to say - but the BULK of Scripture speaks against it.

**This is the problem that many **novice readers of Scripture fall into and the real tragedy of Protestantism. When I read these sorts of things, I immediately think of the words of Peter, when speaking about the Scriptures
"In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

Consider your signature line, for example. You have completely taken Benedict XVI’s quote out of context to serve your purpose. When you read fully and understand what he was saying, you realize that he isn’t saying what you want him to say.
Faith alone is only true if you understand what REAL faith is according to the Church’s 2000 years of teaching. It is not mere belief or intellectul assent - but a total surrender and obedience to that belief. The Church has always taught this,

So - are we to understand from your post(s) that you deny the fact that we are to persevere to be saved?

There’s not much more I need to say to you Elvis.

 

[elvisman]

There’s not much more I need to say to you Elvis.

I didn’t think so. I have given you much to ponder - rather, Scripture has.

**Does that mean you won’t answer the question about your denying the fact that we are to persevere to be saved? **
OR are you just another hit-and-run poster who states his case, then moves on when he is challenged?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I didn’t think so. I have given you much to ponder - rather, Scripture has.

Does that mean you won’t answer the question about your denying the fact that we are to persevere to be saved?
OR are you just another hit-and-run poster who states his case, then moves on when he is challenged?

I’m far from being a hit and run poster. I post so we can all grow in our love for God. I’m not sure how any Christian can love a god who does not completely save someone from their sins, even if He has the power to do so. Maybe you just want to steal just a small portion of God’s glory in your own salvation… boasting to men and god for your own righteousness. I’m afraid that your postings do not give me much of a challenge, nor is there anything that you posted to ponder with the exception of the constant scripture abuse by some Catholics. It is God who preserves His elect for His own name sake and His own glory. Salvation is a God-centered act, and not a man centered act. If you think you are the cause of your preserving… then God can pat you on the back if you make it to Heaven… because this Savior of yours is powless to save sinners without the help of the sinner. I guess your theme is "God saves those who save themselves” which is boasting in the flesh. Your man centered perspective of man’s sovereignity in salvation is way off the mark of the truth which glorifies God. How in the world can you worship and praise God for salvation when you are the ultimate person for saving yourself?

 

[elvisman]

I’m far from being a hit and run poster. I post so we can all grow in our love for God. I’m not sure how any Christian can love a god who does not completely save someone from their sins, even if He has the power to do so. Maybe you just want to steal just a small portion of God’s glory in your own salvation… boasting to men and god for your own righteousness. I’m afraid that your postings do not give me much of a challenge, nor is there anything that you posted to ponder with the exception of the constant scripture abuse by some Catholics. It is God who preserves His elect for His own name sake and His own glory. Salvation is a God-centered act, and not a man centered act. If you think you are the cause of your preserving… then God can pat you on the back if you make it to Heaven… because this Savior of yours is powless to save sinners without the help of the sinner. I guess your theme is "God saves those who save themselves” which is boasting in the flesh. Your man centered perspective of man’s sovereignity in salvation is way off the mark of the truth which glorifies God. How in the world can you worship and praise God for salvation when you are the ultimate person for saving yourself?

As Catholics, we don’t believe that we can save ourselve. BUT, Scripture CLEARLY shows that we must cooperate with God’s grace to be saved.

**God is not a cosmic rapist who forces his love on people and drags them into heaven against their will. **
**Nor is he a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into hell. **
HOW we cooperate or reject his grace that determines whether or not we will be saved. Jesus Redeemed us by paying for us by his finished work on the cros.

However, Redemption and Salvation are not the same thing. We’re paid for. How we cooperate with or reject that redemption is up to us.

The problem with OSAS is that it is simply not Biblical.

PS - I believe I HAVE challenged you or you would not have ignored some of my posts.

 

[2nd_Adam]

As Catholics, we don’t believe that we can save ourselve. BUT, Scripture CLEARLY shows that we must cooperate with God’s grace to be saved.

God is not a cosmic rapist who forces his love on people and drags them into heaven against their will.
Nor is he a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into hell.
HOW we cooperate or reject his grace that determines whether or not we will be saved. Jesus Redeemed us by paying for us by his finished work on the cros.

However, Redemption and Salvation are not the same thing. We’re paid for. How we cooperate with or reject that redemption is up to us.

The problem with OSAS is that it is simply not Biblical.

PS - I believe I HAVE challenged you or you would not have ignored some of my posts.

How close is official Catholic doctrine is to semi-pelagism?