What's so bad about Pagans anyway?

[elvisman]

Why didn’t he stop the others?

God stopped Abraham because he was testing him. Remember - God was the one who told Abraham to do it in the first place - that is why He stopped him. He had no intention of letting it happen - he wanted Abraham to realize that he had to put his entire trust and faith in Him.

God hasn’t stopped othe human sacrificers because he wasn’t behind their actions. He has given them free willl to choose good or evil. Unfortunately, they have chosen evil.

 

[cheese_sdc]

God stopped Abraham because he was testing him. Remember - God was the one who told Abraham to do it in the first place - that is why He stopped him. He had no intention of letting it happen - he wanted Abraham to realize that he had to put his entire trust and faith in Him.

God hasn’t stopped othe human sacrificers because he wasn’t behind their actions. He has given them free willl to choose good or evil. Unfortunately, they have chosen evil.

So far, it seems that the discussion has followed this track:

In the beginning, God transmitted his Law to people.
Some people didn’t get the message correctly and became pagans.
(Here’s where the disagreement comes in - there are two possible “therefores”)
The agnostic camp says "Therefore something is wrong with god’s method of communication and therefore something is wrong with god).

The Catholic/Christian camp says “Therefore something is wrong with people.”

I know which one I agree with.

 

[elvisman]

So far, it seems that the discussion has followed this track:

In the beginning, God transmitted his Law to people.
Some people didn’t get the message correctly and became pagans.
(Here’s where the disagreement comes in - there are two possible “therefores”)
The agnostic camp says "Therefore something is wrong with god’s method of communication and therefore something is wrong with god).

The Catholic/Christian camp says “Therefore something is wrong with people.”

Actually - you’re wrong.
You left out the part about the natural and moral law which I have explained ad nauseam and has been overlooked as many times.

It has been my experience on these forums that when something is explained this many times and ignored - it’s because the other side doesn’t have anything intelligent to respond with.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Actually - you’re wrong.
**You left out the part about the natural **and moral law which I have explained ad nauseam and has been overlooked as many times.

**It has been my **experience on these forums that when something is explained this many times and ignored - it’s because the other side doesn’t have anything intelligent to respond with.

Nope, I didn’t ignore it. That is part of god’s chosen method of communication. God chose to attempt to communicate with us via natural law.

It seems however, that natural law is kinda tough to tie down.

I also think about the scriptures “The Heavens declare the majesty of God”. But I find that it is odd that after 4000 years, we’re still arguing about the same things.

 

[elvisman]

Nope, I didn’t ignore it. That is part of god’s chosen method of communication. God chose to attempt to communicate with us via natural law.

It seems however, that natural law is kinda tough to tie down.

I also think about the scriptures “The Heavens declare the majesty of God”. But I find that it is odd that after 4000 years, we’re still arguing about the same things.

That’s just it - prideful men think they know better than God and his Church. The fact is - the don’t - and never will.
This is the tragedy of Protestantism, Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.

The natural law isn’t tough to tie down - especially in ancient times. Now there are MANY more ways to violate it than than they ever had.

 

[Contarini]

God stopped Abraham because he was testing him.

I don’t think that’s a sufficient answer. If a being tells you to do something evil, that being is clearly not the true God. If human sacrifice is intrinsically evil, then it would seem to follow that Abraham failed the test–that a truly pious response would have been “I don’t know who you are, but you can’t be the true God or you wouldn’t be asking this of me.”

The idea that Abraham was being tested, and that he passed the test by his willingness to sacrifice his son, would seem to imply that human sacrifice is not intrinsically evil.

Edwin

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t think that’s a sufficient answer. If a being tells you to do something evil, that being is clearly not the true God. If human sacrifice is intrinsically evil, then it would seem to follow that Abraham failed the test–that a truly pious response would have been “I don’t know who you are, but you can’t be the true God or you wouldn’t be asking this of me.”

The idea that Abraham was being tested, and that he passed the test by his willingness to sacrifice his son, would seem to imply that human sacrifice is not intrinsically evil.

Edwin

I feel quite the same way about this. Abraham seems to simply take at face value that it is God talking to him in this event. He never questions this being and asks why do you ask me to do such an abomination God? He shows no hesitation to carry out the act. Worst of all, the writers don’t even show him shed a tear, or beg God to reconsider. I know many parents would put themselves in their child’s stead if they could spare their child of death. He does not even consider that option either. God, please take me instead of my child if you must have a life!
I’ve had other ideas on this but none of them seem to change the unpleasantness of it. This was the child they longed for over such a period of time? The one God promised them. Why would God give them this unbelievable gift at Sara’s age only to be taken back later even if under a “test”? Is this symbolic of God taking things away he grants? Like grace or love?
I don’t know.

It just seems like Abraham falling into pagan rituals somehow too.

But, I still can’t see God getting angry about pagan rituals if he himself likes to use them even if he does not intend they be carried out all the way. Its hard to tell your kids not to be like children that act like X if you ask your child to be a part of a game that X people play but just don’t finish the game all the way.

Parents today kill their children and think God told them to do it. Grated, that is rare.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think that’s a sufficient answer. If a being tells you to do something evil, that being is clearly not the true God. If human sacrifice is intrinsically evil, then it would seem to follow that Abraham failed the test–that a truly pious response would have been “I don’t know who you are, but you can’t be the true God or you wouldn’t be asking this of me.”

The idea that Abraham was being tested, and that he passed the test by his willingness to sacrifice his son, would seem to imply that human sacrifice is not intrinsically evil.

Edwin

Human sacrifice is evil - and God cannot be the author of evil. He knew in advance that he would stop Abraham.

The test was less about God trying to find out about Abraham’s loyaly (he is omniscient). It was more to strengthen Abraham’s faith and trust in God.
The test was about his willingness to do whatever God asked of him no matter how horrible it might seem.**
Abraham passed the test because he was willing.

 

[elvisman]

I feel quite the same way about this. Abraham seems to simply take at face value that it is God talking to him in this event. He never questions this being and asks why do you ask me to do such an abomination God? He shows no hesitation to carry out the act. Worst of all, the writers don’t even show him shed a tear, or beg God to reconsider. I know many parents would put themselves in their child’s stead if they could spare their child of death. He does not even consider that option either. God, please take me instead of my child if you must have a life!
I’ve had other ideas on this but none of them seem to change the unpleasantness of it. This was the child they longed for over such a period of time? The one God promised them. Why would God give them this unbelievable gift at Sara’s age only to be taken back later even if under a “test”? Is this symbolic of God taking things away he grants? Like grace or love?
I don’t know.

It just seems like Abraham falling into pagan rituals somehow too.

But, I still can’t see God getting angry about pagan rituals if he himself likes to use them even if he does not intend they be carried out all the way. Its hard to tell your kids not to be like children that act like X if you ask your child to be a part of a game that X people play but just don’t finish the game all the way.

Parents today kill their children and think God told them to do it. Grated, that is rare.

**Read my last post. **
If you still don’t get it - I suggest you read more on the subject.

I also suggest you do some more research on Judeo-Christian beliefs before making more outlandish comparisons to paganism.

 

[StrawberryJam]

**Read **my last post.
If you still don’t get it - I suggest you read more on the subject.

I also suggest you do some more research on Judeo-Christian beliefs before making more outlandish comparisons to paganism.

I am not sure if I am suffering from failiure to understand your replies or if I am simply unable to accept the types of responses given as fully covering this to any satisfaction.
The other possibility is God has hardened my heart to it all anyway.
I’m not trying to make outlandish comparisons, I am observing the events and what else can I compare them to?

 

[cheese_sdc]

I don’t think that’s a sufficient answer. If a being tells you to do something evil, that being is clearly not the true God. If human sacrifice is intrinsically evil, then it would seem to follow that Abraham failed the test–that a truly pious response would have been “I don’t know who you are, but you can’t be the true God or you wouldn’t be asking this of me.”

The idea that Abraham was being tested, and that he passed the test by his willingness to sacrifice his son, would seem to imply that human sacrifice is not intrinsically evil.

Edwin