What's so great about the Tridentine Mass?

[Devekut]

The OP seems like he/she is trolling. If you really are in the RCIA I would recommend speaking to a priest about your dislike of Catholic traditions, as you are definitely appearing to be making a mockery about “crossing the t’s”. You seem to be approaching Catolicism from a very liberal Protestant mindset, which isn’t surprising as you are converting but please try to actually CONVERT to it all…not just some or most.

 

[slh3016]

The OP seems like he/she is trolling. If you really are in the RCIA I would recommend speaking to a priest about your dislike of Catholic traditions, as you are definitely appearing to be making a mockery about “crossing the t’s”. You seem to be approaching Catolicism from a very liberal Protestant mindset, which isn’t surprising as you are converting but please try to actually CONVERT to it all…not just some or most.

No, I am absolutely NOT trolling. I’m sincerely trying to figure out why some people that I personally know are so up in arms over TLM versus NO. They are somewhat condescending and judgmental of others that don’t ascribe to their same opinions and I, having NO exposure at all to TLM, am trying to understand their viewpoint.

I want to know what makes the TLM so special to these people…is it personal preference? Is it prejudice? It is nostalgia? Or is there some very real significant theological difference?

From the responses given here, it seems that ALL of those things could be the reason.

You know, it’s hard enough trying to explain to family and friends why we are converting when they claim we just want a “check the box” religion. I guess CAF was not the right place to ask my question…

 

[Thomas_White]

What is the essence of the TLM that makes people fight to protect it? What makes it superior or more desirable in their minds that the NO Mass? Surely, for there to be such strong feelings about it, there has to be a sentiment that is far deeper than just Gregorian chant and Latin That’s what I’m trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint.

The people I know that are so excited about the TLM commencing locally all were born and grew up post-Vat II so their desire for it comes across as more of one of an “elitist” nature than just a “Let’s get back to happier times” nature because they weren’t even alive when TLM was the norm

It is all of it, including the Latin. The Tridentine Mass was promulgated in 1570 and remained the Roman Rite Mass for nearly four-hundred years. And then it wasn’t. There was the feeling, even among some prominent leaders of Vatican II, that the revised OF Mass was so radical in its implementation that it was not true to its roots. This is arguable, and it is complex. It is also at the core of the issue.

I’d say if this is a serious concern, then the thing to do would be to research the topic. There is an abundance of material available, and, in my humble opinion, the issue really cannot be fully explained here where comments are necessarily brief. At the same time, there could not be a thing wrong with setting the issue aside and embracing the current OF Mass. Both Masses are valid Catholic Masses.

 

[slh3016]

No it is not basically a lot of emotion versus actual correctness of form. That statement is an backhanded insult to both forms. I am grateful that we have both forms because each form has something to teach us. There are special gifts in both forms. Why there has to be a conflict between the two is a mystery to me. I see the Traditional Mass as a rose and the Novus Ordo as a beautiful white daisy. One rich and lush, the other fresh and light. Both are beautiful and complex in God’s love.

I am not trying to insult anyone. I’m trying to get to the core of the issue of the conflict.

Your analogy of the flowers is very helpful. THAT is what I was trying to ascertain.

 

[slh3016]

Thank you so much to the the posters on this thread who I think “saw” what I was trying to get at/ask in my OP and who graciously overlooked my ignorance in this matter and who went to great detail to explain the differences between the NO and TLM forms. My knowledge has increased ten-fold in this area and I feel confident that I can continue to feel completely content in the NO form of Mass.

 

[slh3016]

The OP seems like he/she is trolling. If you really are in the RCIA I would recommend speaking to a priest about your dislike of Catholic traditions, as you are definitely appearing to be making a mockery about “crossing the t’s”.

Now that I’m back home on my PC and re-read this post, I’d like to adamantly state that I was NOT making a mockery of anything! I think you read something there that wasn’t. Have you never heard of the idiomatic phrase “make sure you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s” when referring to someone being overly cautious about something or making sure all the details are completed.

I was NOT referring to the Sign of the Cross if that is what you think I meant to imply. I am totally appalled at your lack of charity.

You seem to be approaching Catolicism from a very liberal Protestant mindset, which isn’t surprising as you are converting but please try to actually CONVERT to it all…not just some or most.

What do you mean by this? Convert to all of what? This sounds very condescending. I’m converting to the fullness of Christ and the fullness of faith so what more is there to convert to? Just because I don’t understand everything now and have questions doesn’t mean that I reject them.

I’m very interested in knowing how YOU define “all” in your statement “convert to it all.” What do you suppose I’m rejecting just because I have questions regarding the differences in forms of Mass?

 

[Devekut]

Now that I’m back home on my PC and re-read this post, I’d like to adamantly state that I was NOT making a mockery of anything! I think you read something there that wasn’t. Have you never heard of the idiomatic phrase “make sure you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s” when referring to someone being overly cautious about something or making sure all the details are completed.

I was NOT referring to the Sign of the Cross if that is what you think I meant to imply. I am totally appalled at your lack of charity.

What do you mean by this? Convert to all of what? This sounds very condescending. I’m converting to the fullness of Christ and the fullness of faith so what more is there to convert to? Just because I don’t understand everything now and have questions doesn’t mean that I reject them.

I’m very interested in knowing how YOU define “all” in your statement “convert to it all.” What do you suppose I’m rejecting just because I have questions regarding the differences in forms of Mass?

My lack of charity? I’m not the only one who was a bit offended by your comments. You claim you know nothing of the TLM and beg us to forgive your ignorance before hand, but you make such statements as saying you think the TLM doesn’t impress God because it is all form; as if it is OCD that drives Catholic priests and laity who prefer the TLM. You definitely are the one who was lacking charity when speaking about your so called friends who prefer the TLM. I wonder if it is them who are truly the zealots you describe or is it you who just would prefer a couch, and a coffee table mass.

When I said you must convert to the faith in its entirety I meant just that; accept that ancient rites are still alive and loved. You have the option of attending any Catholic rite you want and if you chose the NO Roman Rite that is up to you but don’t judge and mock. As a Catholic I have accepted that the NO is a valid mass and as much as I prefer not to attend it, the Lord is still present there and NO parishes still bring converts in.

 

[slh3016]

When I said you must convert to the faith in its entirety I meant just that; accept that ancient rites are still alive and loved. You have the option of attending any Catholic rite you want and if you chose the NO Roman Rite that is up to you but don’t judge and mock. As a Catholic I have accepted that the NO is a valid mass and as much as I prefer not to attend it, the Lord is still present there and NO parishes still bring converts in.

Well, I am truly sorry if I was offending anyone. What I MEANT was that:

*If, as Catholic Christians, we get to the point where we judge or condescend to others that do not attend or prefer the same Mass as us and we feel superior to them, we have lost the entire point of worship and the Christian life. (And, yes, I know this runs both ways!) We have then become all about rules and proper posture and arrogance and pride can creep into our souls and we have become like the Pharisees.

I totally accept the ancient rites and if that is what someone prefers, then so be it!
That’s all I wanted to know…is it a preference over the NO for whatever reason or is the TLM form more theologically sound than the NO? I’ve experienced Catholics claiming this very thing as if the NO may or may not even be valid. Even this very thread has produced answers that stem from one spectrum to the other. Someone even claimed that going to NO is choosing one theology over another although I’m not sure what was even meant by that *

So, yes, maybe I am bring a little of Protestantism with me into the Catholic Church and I don’t necessarily believe that is a bad thing. I’ve heard many other converts say the same thing. I don’t want to get so bogged down in the details of certain things that, in the end, don’t amount to a hill of beans, that I lose sight of Christ. I’m coming to the Catholic Church because I believe His fullness is there. I’m not coming for a set of arbitrary rules, which is what most Protestants do stereotype the Catholic Church to be. Sadly, many get that impressions from Catholics themselves.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Well, I am truly sorry if I was offending anyone. What I MEANT was that:

*If, as Catholic Christians, we get to the point where we judge or condescend to others that do not attend or prefer the same Mass as us and we feel superior to them, we have lost the entire point of worship and the Christian life. (And, yes, I know this runs both ways!) We have then become all about rules and proper posture and arrogance and pride can creep into our souls and we have become like the Pharisees.

I totally accept the ancient rites and if that is what someone prefers, then so be it!
That’s all I wanted to know…is it a preference over the NO for whatever reason or is the TLM form more theologically sound than the NO? I’ve experienced Catholics claiming this very thing as if the NO may or may not even be valid. Even this very thread has produced answers that stem from one spectrum to the other. Someone even claimed that going to NO is choosing one theology over another although I’m not sure what was even meant by that *

So, yes, maybe I am bring a little of Protestantism with me into the Catholic Church and I don’t necessarily believe that is a bad thing. I’ve heard many other converts say the same thing. I don’t want to get so bogged down in the details of certain things that, in the end, don’t amount to a hill of beans, that I lose sight of Christ. I’m coming to the Catholic Church because I believe His fullness is there. I’m not coming for a set of arbitrary rules, which is what most Protestants do stereotype the Catholic Church to be. Sadly, many get that impressions from Catholics themselves.

You have done nothing wrong, and have asked a legitimate question. You do not have to defend that. I think most people here have understood what you were asking. Go where you find peace and don’t worry about what others think. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. Perhaps it is time to put an end to this contentious thread.

 

[ProVobis]

I totally accept the ancient rites and if that is what someone prefers, then so be it!
That’s all I wanted to know…is it a preference over the NO for whatever reason or is the TLM form more theologically sound than the NO? (

I don’t know how to tell you this but your continued use of the acronym “NO” offends the very people you like to worship with. Just sayin…

 

[winder31]

I love the Latin Mass! I’m a convert (Baptist), came into the Church in 92. Only recently started going to a Latin Mass parish.

I’ve seen many polls showing more than 50% of Catholics do not believe in the real presence. After going to both Masses, I see why. The reverence before the Latin Mass took me aback the first time. No one is chit chatting, women and girls have on veils, everyone is dressed nicely…they act like they are about to meet a King!

There is no communion in the hand and there is no cup. You kneel at the altar and the Priest gives you communion on the tongue. You will definitely not want to take communion any other way after this.

Extraordinary ministers of holy communion should be just that, extraordinary, not commonplace. And more than once I’ve seen the host dropped on the ground by EMs.

Go to a Tridentine Mass, you will love it.

 

[slh3016]

I don’t know how to tell you this but your continued use of the acronym “NO” offends the very people you like to worship with. Just sayin…

Oh good gravy…I can’t win for losing, can I? Everywhere I turn, someone is offended about something

I just wanted to know what made the Tridentine Mass so special that some people might feel elitist about it.

 

[bobballen_18]

No, I am absolutely NOT trolling. I’m sincerely trying to figure out why some people that I personally know are so up in arms over TLM versus NO. They are somewhat condescending and judgmental of others that don’t ascribe to their same opinions and I, having NO exposure at all to TLM, am trying to understand their viewpoint.

I want to know what makes the TLM so special to these people…

You mentioned that if you have no exposure at all to the Latin Mass. If you are so interested in why it is so special to them, it is perfectly fine to ask questions about it first. But I would suggest that if there is an opportunity somewhat near you to experience an Extraordinary Form High Mass, you will perhaps know better what people are talking about, and your discussion with people on the matter may be enhanced.

I think that some people believe that the Extraordinary Form better expresses the theological meanings of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Not that the Ordinary form is invalid or doesn’t express those meanings at all, but just that it possibly undermines or does not make these theological meanings as obvious as in the Extraordinary Form. And if people who prefer the Extraordinary Form don’t say that specifically, I think this is why they just feel more nourished by and prefer it.

As people have already mentioned, there are certainly a number of Catholics who prefer the EF who are very judgmental about it, but in my experience, this is not the norm. I want to propose the idea that unless the person who prefers the EF explicitly says something degrading about the character of someone who attends the OF, one is being judgmental themselves by calling the person at the EF judgmental. I know I have had negative thoughts about the OF, very much in fact, so I have been guilty. But still, in general, we should do our best to give people the benefit of the doubt in these matters, on both sides. Unless a person explicitly says something that states their view of the character of a particular person.

 

[phil19034]

Oh good gravy…I can’t win for losing, can I? Everywhere I turn, someone is offended about something

I just wanted to know what made the Tridentine Mass so special that some people might feel elitist about it.

FYI - The reason why many people do not like the abbreviation “NO” (it even calling it the “Novus Ordo”) is because many people who hate the Ordinary Form literally say “it is no mass” meaning it’s not a valid mass.

So the abbreviation “NO Mass” winds up not being an abbreviation, but an insult from sedevacantists.

I think its best to use the terms Pope Benedict XVI gave us: Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form.

BTW - most of the regular posters here on CAF are good people who love Christ and His Church. Some may be a little blunt, but they do it with love. However, this is an open forum to the Internet. Sometimes, there are people who do not have charity and/or so not reflect the faith. If they are reported, they often get booted, clean up their acts, or move on from CAF.

Your questions are very valid questions. However, it’s on a topic which can be very decisive among devout Catholics. Especially to people (on both sides of the issue) who believe they are more Catholic than the Order of Bishops.

May God Bless you & your family; and welcome home. May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen.

 

[Thomas_White]

Oh good gravy…I can’t win for losing, can I? Everywhere I turn, someone is offended about something

I just wanted to know what made the Tridentine Mass so special that some people might feel elitist about it.

When you phrase a question about the Tridentine Mass the way you have and then pose it on the “Traditional Catholicism” subforum, I don’t think you should be surprised that it isn’t exactly warmly received. I mean, in your OP you are asking traditional Catholics why they are “all worked up”, “splitting hairs”, “feel they are more pious than Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Mass”, “feel they are a little more devout” and follow this up by saying “It’s almost elitist”.

Do you see what I mean? I am trying to be helpful since you seem sincerely puzzled by the response. It is the way you pose the question and to whom you pose it. Posed the way it is, it is almost guaranteed to provoke a negative response. While I don’t suppose this was the intent, it is a sensitive issue involving deeply felt religious beliefs. :yup:

 

[awsiukiewicz]

Phil19034…wow…beautifully stated and and as far as I can tell right on the mark…for me personally the Latin Liturgy lends itself to more reverence. I personally prefer the solemnity. I served the Latin Mass as an altar boy. Unlike another who stated he was 10 yrs old and preferred the N.O. I loved serving the Latin Liturgy. Latin is the language of the Church…I know the history e.g. Greek etc…but latin is precise. to the convert…and by the way ‘welcome home’…you owe it to yourself to attend both and I hope you are able to recognize the beauty of the Latin liturgy…it’s a great deal more than the language…it has a great deal to do with the sacrificial nature of the Mass and less communal which Vatican II stressed…more people involvement…I tend to think one can be as involved as one wishes even with the Latin Liturgy. Pax

 

[CountrySteve]

Disclaimer: I am in RCIA converting from Evangelical/Southern Baptist Protestantism in the South soooooo please have patience with my ignorance about these issues

Questions:

What are the differences between the Tridentine (Latin) Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass?

Why do many hail the Tridentine Mass as being the most “legitimate” or feel that the Novus Ordo Mass is “lesser than” the Tridentine Mass?

Why do people get all worked up (“splitting hairs”) regarding the differences or feel that they are more pious than Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Mass. I know this is stereotyping but I have friends who attend a parish that going to start having Tridentine Mass soon (the first in our diocese in like 20 years) and I get the feeling that they feel a little more devout by attending this particular parish and are especially excited about the change in Mass. It’s almost elitist.

Being new to the Catholic scene, I’m just trying to figure out what the big deal is

Have you by chance read the document Summorum Pontificum? It shows the attitude we should have to both the OF and EF Missals. w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html

I think it was his hope that a more wider celebration of the EF Missal would lead to a more reverent use of the OF Missal. The doucment does say:

The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage. The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.

Pax

 

[slh3016]

You mentioned that if you have no exposure at all to the Latin Mass. If you are so interested in why it is so special to them, it is perfectly fine to ask questions about it first. But I would suggest that if there is an opportunity somewhat near you to experience an Extraordinary Form High Mass, you will perhaps know better what people are talking about, and your discussion with people on the matter may be enhanced.

Yes, none, and there are none in my area and haven’t been for 20+ years. There is going to be one starting in August and this has drawn a lot of attention (and opinions).

I think that some people believe that the Extraordinary Form better expresses the theological meanings of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Not that the Ordinary form is invalid or doesn’t express those meanings at all, but just that it possibly undermines or does not make these theological meanings as obvious as in the Extraordinary Form. And if people who prefer the Extraordinary Form don’t say that specifically, I think this is why they just feel more nourished by and prefer it.

Fair enough

As people have already mentioned, there are certainly a number of Catholics who prefer the EF who are very judgmental about it, but in my experience, this is not the norm. I want to propose the idea that unless the person who prefers the EF explicitly says something degrading about the character of someone who attends the OF, one is being judgmental themselves by calling the person at the EF judgmental. I know I have had negative thoughts about the OF, very much in fact, so I have been guilty. But still, in general, we should do our best to give people the benefit of the doubt in these matters, on both sides. Unless a person explicitly says something that states their view of the character of a particular person.

Yes, you are probably right, but there are certain attitudes that are unmistakable when talking to someone face to face.

 

[slh3016]

FYI - The reason why many people do not like the abbreviation “NO” (it even calling it the “Novus Ordo”) is because many people who hate the Ordinary Form literally say “it is no mass” meaning it’s not a valid mass.

So the abbreviation “NO Mass” winds up not being an abbreviation, but an insult from sedevacantists.

I think its best to use the terms Pope Benedict XVI gave us: Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form.

BTW - most of the regular posters here on CAF are good people who love Christ and His Church. Some may be a little blunt, but they do it with love. However, this is an open forum to the Internet. Sometimes, there are people who do not have charity and/or so not reflect the faith. If they are reported, they often get booted, clean up their acts, or move on from CAF.

Your questions are very valid questions. However, it’s on a topic which can be very decisive among devout Catholics. Especially to people (on both sides of the issue) who believe they are more Catholic than the Order of Bishops.

May God Bless you & your family; and welcome home. May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen.

Thank you for that tidbit of info regarding the abbreviation.

I come here to learn and grow in my understanding and knowledge of the faith and I am so very appreciative of those who help me and see my true intent in asking questions and who aren’t so ready to jump on my case if I (out of ignorance) misspeak or get confused

 

[slh3016]

I love the Latin Mass! I’m a convert (Baptist), came into the Church in 92. Only recently started going to a Latin Mass parish.

I’ve seen many polls showing more than 50% of Catholics do not believe in the real presence. After going to both Masses, I see why. The reverence before the Latin Mass took me aback the first time. No one is chit chatting, women and girls have on veils, everyone is dressed nicely…they act like they are about to meet a King!

There is no communion in the hand and there is no cup. You kneel at the altar and the Priest gives you communion on the tongue. You will definitely not want to take communion any other way after this.

Extraordinary ministers of holy communion should be just that, extraordinary, not commonplace. And more than once I’ve seen the host dropped on the ground by EMs.

Go to a Tridentine Mass, you will love it.

Thank you for this explanation.