What's the best way to explain the veneration of Mary to a Protestant?

[JonNC]

Here I don’t agree. I don’t believe Jesus rebuked Mary AT ALL.

The 'Woman" term is a sign of RESPECT, not a sign of Him calling her a name. And He doesn’t just say, “so what does that have to do with me” but rather, “What is that to YOU (Mary) and to me?” --He is asking how it affects both of them, again, showing His respect for her.

She doesn’t come out and say, “Jesus, they have no wine, do something about it”. She says only, “they have no wine”. She notes the situation but doesn’t ask or demand anything from Him.

He says, “what is that to you and to me, My hour is not yet come’ which does not mean that she is trying to get Him started on the road to the cross EARLY, but rather noting that His Blood (which will be offered in the Chalice of Wine) is not yet to be offered. Not that He can’t do a miracle 'NOW”.

And then she just says, “Do what He tells you”. He could have told the people to just go away, He could have said ANYTHING, she wasn’t making Him do anything, she was just saying what she always says of Jesus, "Do what He tells you’. How could Jesus rebuke her for that? It’s what He asks of all of us!

One can’t read the facial expressions through the words, but they are mother and son. And sometimes I have this picture in my mind that He says this to her with a twinkle in His eye, almost needling her, as a son will do to his mother. But, she gets the play, and with perhaps a raise of her eyebrow at Him, she turns and tells them to do what He tells you.

It is neither theological, nor meant to be. Just a thought in considering their humanity - both of them.

Jon

 

[ufamtobie]

Unlike many Protestants, I have no problem with praying to the Mother of God. However, I am extremely

uncomfortable with the above justification for it, since it makes a prayer to Mary sound like a devious way to trick God into doing something He would not ordinarily perform.

Bran Stark, The wedding of Cana shows Mary’s Prayer for the wedding couple, was it devious that Virgin Mary went to Her Son Jesus to do something about the shortage of wine? No! It is not devious Mary went to Her Son Jesus Christ, now how can that be devious? Virgin Mary, intercedes for us to Her Son Jesus Christ, wether we ask for it or not, because the wedding couple did not know they ran out of wine, See how good of a Mother She is not only to Her Son, Our Savior but to ALL her sons and daughters. Yes, we are Her Sons and daughters.

After rebuking her.

Bran Stark, Our Lord did not rebuke Mary! Read carefully (John 2: 3,4)And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.

Bran Stark, Jesus Christ is only asking His Mother Mary a “question”. When we ask our Mother a question are we rebuking her? No!

Many Protestants want to believe, I repeat it again, many Protestants want to believe that Jesus Rebuked Mary here, Bran do you know why? I will tell you. Because Many Protestants want to use this against Catholics, Like your Quote above: “After Rebuking Her” but truly it is not only against Catholics but against the Mother of God and God himself they’re are attacking, most of all many Protestants are hurting only themselves, now that is, “devious” unaware.

---

Bran Stark, but many Protestants will still insist that Our Lord rebuked Mary, How sad, just to have something against Catholics. I guess this makes them feel better because deep down in their hearts, they know that they are the ones, rebuking Mary.

If Mary was rebuked, there would have been no wine, no miracle for the wedding couple of Cana. But the Truth is there was a Miracle performed therefore there was no rebuke.

Bran Stark, do you think it was by coincidence that Mary asked/interceded to our Lord to perform His first miracle? No! It was not by coincidence**, it was by Godincidence.** AMEN Bran, remember the question Jesus Asked Mary Above, “Woman, what is that to me and to thee”? Jesus included Mary in this His first miracle that He knew that He would Perform, because She asked Him to. So Bran, don’t be afraid to ask Mary for anything this is not being devious.
Ufam Tobie

 

[Bran_Stark]

All the blue… my eyes hurt.

Bran Stark, but many Protestants will still insist that Our Lord rebuked Mary, How sad, just to have something against Catholics. I guess this makes them feel better because deep down in their hearts, they know that they are the ones, rebuking Mary.

The notion that Our Lord rebuked the Blessed Virgin is far older than Protestantism, though. Let us see what St. John Chrysostom wrote, in his Twenty-First Homily on the Gospel according to St. John.

Where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?”, because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshipped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion. For consider what a thing it was, that when all the people high and low were standing round Him, when the multitude was intent on hearing Him, and His doctrine had begun to be set forth, she should come into the midst and take Him away from the work of exhortation, and converse with Him apart, and not even endure to come within, but draw Him outside merely to herself. This is why He said, “Who is My mother and My brethren?” Not to insult her who had borne Him, (away with the thought!) but to procure her the greatest benefit, and not to let her think meanly of Him. For if He cared for others, and used every means to implant in them a becoming opinion of Himself, much more would He do so in the case of His mother. And since it was probable that if these words had been addressed to her by her Son, she would not readily have chosen even then to be convinced, but would in all cases have claimed the superiority as being His mother, therefore He replied as He did to them who spoke to Him; otherwise He could not have led up her thoughts from His present lowliness to His future exaltation, had she expected that she should always be honored by Him as by a son, and not that He should come as her Master.

It was then from this motive that He said in this place, “Woman, what have I to do with you?” and also for another reason not less pressing. What was that? It was, that His miracles might not be suspected. The request ought to have come from those who needed, not from His mother. And why so? Because what is done at the request of one’s friends, great though it be, often causes offense to the spectators; but when they make the request who have the need, the miracle is free from suspicion, the praise unmixed, the benefit great. So if some excellent physician should enter a house where there were many sick, and be spoken to by none of the patients or their relations, but be directed only by his own mother, he would be suspected and disliked by the sufferers, nor would any of the patients or their attendants deem him able to exhibit anything great or remarkable. And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with you?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.

 

[MartinJordan]

All the blue… my eyes hurt.

The notion that Our Lord rebuked the Blessed Virgin is far older than Protestantism, though. Let us see what St. John Chrysostom wrote, in his Twenty-First Homily on the Gospel according to St. John.

Why did you stop before St.Chrysostom finished talking on this?

He continued on to say:

These then were the words, not of one speaking rudely to his mother, but belonging to a wise dispensation, which brought her into a right frame of mind, and provided that the miracles should be attended with that honor which was meet. And setting other things aside, this very appearance which these words have of having been spoken chidingly,** is amply enough to show that He held her in high honor, for by His displeasure He showed that He reverenced her greatly**.

MJ

 

[Bran_Stark]

I stopped the quote only because I didn’t want to burden readers with a ridiculously-long post, haha. There was no sinister motive, and I completely agree that Christ held His mother in high honor. I am simply skeptical of claims that said honor indicates her utter sinlessness.

 

[MartinJordan]

I stopped the quote only because I didn’t want to burden readers with a ridiculously-long post, haha. There was no sinister motive, and I completely agree that Christ held His mother in high honor. I am simply skeptical of claims that said honor indicates her utter sinlessness.

It was just three more lines But I’ll take your word for it. However, I would recommend things are completed (for the subject matter) for an honest approach giving no room to assume otherwise.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

All the blue… my eyes hurt.

The notion that Our Lord rebuked the Blessed Virgin is far older than Protestantism, though. Let us see what St. John Chrysostom wrote, in his Twenty-First Homily on the Gospel according to St. John.

Further to this, did you consider why Jesus tells his Mother “my hour has not yet come”?

There would be no reason for him to say in reply to her unless he was going to do something about it, in other words he listened to what she had to say. Also Mary did not ask him exactly what he was going to do. She left it to him decide how to perform a course of action.

And most importantly for St. John to name the eventual event (turning water in to wine) being Jesus’ First Miracle, “This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him” ( John 2:11).

Thus that is another thing Mary does for us. She allows Jesus to do his mission, his Will in his own time but it is a gentleness and piousness and holiness far beyond our human worldly ability. Lastly Mary has much more closer link when communicating with her Son. So we the “disciples” of Jesus so to speak can trust her to offer our request to Him.

MJ

 

[SteveVH]

One can’t read the facial expressions through the words, but they are mother and son. And sometimes I have this picture in my mind that He says this to her with a twinkle in His eye, almost needling her, as a son will do to his mother. But, she gets the play, and with perhaps a raise of her eyebrow at Him, she turns and tells them to do what He tells you.

It is neither theological, nor meant to be. Just a thought in considering their humanity - both of them.

Jon

I love it. One of my favorite scenes in “The Passion of Christ” is when Jesus playfully splashes Mary with water. Its easy for us to forget that Jesus was truly human. In the context of this thread we can only imagine how much he loved and honored his mother. We should do the same.

 

[joe370]

I converted to Catholicism in 2008 and ever since my Protestant family accuses me of worshiping Mary which I know is not true. Given that we have so many references and devotions to Mary, what’s the best way of explaining that it is honor and not worship. My family keeps saying there’s only one mediator every time I mention I pray the Rosary or ask Mary to pray for me. I want to defend my faith, but do so in a way that they understand.

Thanks!

Jeremy

A couple quick questions:

You tell them that you do not worship Mary and they don’t believe you?

Your family disapproves of people (here on earth, or in heaven) praying for other people i.e. asking your mom or dad to pray for you is a no-no in their book? Paul certainly had no problem asking people to pray for him:

“Continue steadfastly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; meanwhile, praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak…” Col. 4:2-4

If there is only one mediator, namely Jesus, then why do non-Catholics listen to their Pastor or minister mediate - is what I usually ask…just take everything right to Jesus and bypass the pastor and church. Of course that would negate the obligation to attend church, for all protestants.

 

[SteveVH]

Just a few things to consider about Mary:

• She is the daughter of the Father.
• She is the mother of the Son.
• She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Who on earth has had a more intimate relationship with the Trinity?

 

[joe370]

This is what I tried to explain to them but they break out the “one mediator scripture” still.

If Jesus is the only mediator then why did Paul say:

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[joe370]

JonNC

To protestants who do not understand, I encourage that we do not need to understand in order to take our Catholic siblings’ word for it. Catholics say they do not worship Mary and the saints. Believe what they say because they have no reason to be dishonest.

Amen to that Jon…

 

[joe370]

Just a few things to consider about Mary:

• She is the daughter of the Father.
• She is the mother of the Son.
• She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Who on earth has had a more intimate relationship with the Trinity?

And our mother Mary is the queen mother of the King of kings!

 

[joe370]

I converted to Catholicism in 2008 and ever since my Protestant family accuses me of worshiping Mary which I know is not true. Given that we have so many references and devotions to Mary, what’s the best way of explaining that it is honor and not worship. My family keeps saying there’s only one mediator every time I mention I pray the Rosary or ask Mary to pray for me. I want to defend my faith, but do so in a way that they understand.

Thanks!

Jeremy

You could remind them that all Catholics agree that there are key ways in which Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

1. Jesus is the only mediator in terms of being both true God and true man.
2. There is only one mediator whose atoning work is necessary, without whom, in God’s plan, there could be no salvation.
3. There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.
4. There is only one mediator in terms of the source of all grace. All the saints in heaven derive their grace from that one source, just as we do. The difference: those in heaven are fully graced because they are perfectly conformed to God’s will. Phew, can you imagine how powerful their prayers to God must be?

However, we should all mediate in terms of prayer, picking up our crosses as per the bible, and making sacrifices for the salvation of souls, alms-giving, charitable acts, and finally passing on the faith in terms of doctrinal truth, preserved and transmitted via Jesus’ Church until His glorious return.

As per scripture we are called, as a family, to participate in Jesus’ redemptive work:

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfill the word of God.”

 

[ufamtobie]

All the blue… my eyes hurt.

The notion that Our Lord rebuked the Blessed Virgin is far older than Protestantism, though. Let us see what St. John Chrysostom wrote, in his Twenty-First Homily on the Gospel according to St. John.

Bran Stark, what hurts your eyes more than this color blue is the fact your eyes did not complete all that St John Chrysostom wrote regarding the twenty first Homily on the Gospel of John, you only see what you want to see. You Know what I mean. But then again, you are just being a typical Protestant, Leaving things out to suit your argument, but the truth always prevails, don’t it.

Our Lord did not rebuke His Mother.

Bran, the water turned into wine, did it not? Bran, if you answered (yes) to this question, then your yes, should confirm there was no rebuke. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[Bran_Stark]

It was just three more lines But I’ll take your word for it.
MJ

Why thank you.

Just a few things to consider about Mary:

• She is the daughter of the Father.
• She is the mother of the Son.
• She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Who on earth has had a more intimate relationship with the Trinity?

So Christ has the Church as His bride, and the Holy Spirit has Mary, but the Father is a bachelor? How awkward.

Bran Stark, what hurts your eyes more than this color blue is the fact your eyes did not complete all that St John Chrysostom wrote regarding the twenty first Homily on the Gospel of John, you only see what you want to see. You Know what I mean. But then again, you are just being a typical Protestant, Leaving things out to suit your argument, but the truth always prevails, don’t it.

Our Lord did not rebuke His Mother.

Bran, the water turned into wine, did it not? Bran, if you answered (yes) to this question, then your yes, should confirm there was no rebuke. Amen

Ufam Tobie

The water turned to wine, yes, but I think it’s a huge stretch to claim that such a miracle negates the rebuke. Mary’s request was wrong, but the actual act of turning water into wine is not wrong, so Our Lord was well within His rights to perform the act, to show His love for His mother and His power to His disciples.

Since you mention the homily, may I ask your view on its contentions that Christ rebuked His mother? Do you believe Chrysostom was wrong, or do you perhaps think I am reading it incorrectly?

 

[jatkins29]

The short and sweet explanation I’ve given is, we’re supposed to live a Christ-like life, correct? Jesus loved his mother, so I do, too. I love her like she is my own, because she is. I personally love my earthly mother in a differnet and deeper way than any other human being. Jesus must have felt those deep feelings for her, too. He loves her, respects her and honors her, then so do I.

You make a good point and I completely agree.

 

[joe370]

The short and sweet explanation I’ve given is, we’re supposed to live a Christ-like life, correct? Jesus loved his mother, so I do, too. I love her like she is my own, because she is. I personally love my earthly mother in a differnet and deeper way than any other human being. Jesus must have felt those deep feelings for her, too. He loves her, respects her and honors her, then so do I.

:clapping:

 

[Reuben_J]

The water turned to wine, yes, but I think it’s a huge stretch to claim that such a miracle negates the rebuke. Mary’s request was wrong, but the actual act of turning water into wine is not wrong, so Our Lord was well within His rights to perform the act, to show His love for His mother and His power to His disciples.

Since you mention the homily, may I ask your view on its contentions that Christ rebuked His mother? Do you believe Chrysostom was wrong, or do you perhaps think I am reading it incorrectly?

It’s a simple logic to my simple mind. If Jesus rebuked her mother [rebuke: express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions] then he would not proceed to perform the miracle. If he rebuked her by the expression of the word that he used for her, then it must be simple needling within family members of mother and son which sometimes outsiders would make a big deal of, whereby it was actually not. The point here is nevertheless Jesus did what was necessary, the miracle, at the reminding by Mary.

That’s exactly the point about Mary as an intercessor. The relationship between her and her son allows for the son to obey her mother out of his honor and love for her. As far as God is concerned the miracle may not be necessary but yet Jesus did it due to that special relationship (family ties) between her and her mother. But if the miracle was necessary then of course there is no argument on this as there was no necessity for the rebuke. Some Protestants believe that the miracle was necessary as to show Jesus’ unique personality.

Looking at it from that angle, I do not think Chrysostom thought that Jesus rebuked his mother in the full sense of the word without understanding the context of Jesus’ relationship with Mary as his mother.

 

[SteveVH]

So Christ has the Church as His bride, and the Holy Spirit has Mary, but the Father is a bachelor? How awkward.

Aren’t you just so clever. What a dim world you must live in.