What's the best way to talk about the devil to an atheist?

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It’s called an exorcism, and, despite the movies, they always work when done right. But we don’t get to “uncreate” demons. God could, but chooses not to because it obviously works out to a greater expression of His glory and the better good of mankind, despite being rough in the here and now.
I note that your point was that God does not un-create the demon. However, the response you are getting has intentionally misrepresented what you said into saying that God could undo the holocaust.

You are dealing with an Atheist who has no belief in free will. So by God creating the angel (who later falls), the non-free will Atheist sees that akin to creating the evil deeds directly.

Many atheists actually are not like that and have full belief in free will. They simply have never encountered God.

A person who has no belief in free will could not possibly understand the concept of God creating an angel with free will to potentially do evil. They would erroneously see that as contradictory. The logic is self consistent.
 
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? You have to think about your intentions. Why are you talking to him about this in the first place? Would it not be better to talk about God’s existence first before you go on to angels? Unless he is witnessing evil firsthand and you are trying to provide an explanation for it. If God created us physical beings it is not far fetched to imagine he has created spiritual beings as well. I was listening to Someone who was telling me about a book in which they were trying to cast demons out of these people in some African village somewhere. They found the best way to cast them out was to baptize them. Apparently, the demons would come shreaking out of them. These people doing this weren’t even Catholic.
 
You are dealing with an Atheist who has no belief in free will. So by God creating the angel (who later falls), the non-free will Atheist sees that akin to creating the evil deeds directly.
You know, Frankie, you should not make assumptions about what others believe or don’t believe. Please read here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2801887&postcount=3

Especially these two lines.
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
But to answer your comment directly:

YES. To create someone KNOWING what that person will do freely - if not prevented - is not significantly different from doing the deed yourself. There might be some legal quibbling over the issue, but that is just playing the “legal card”. If you are aware of someone who is about to blow up a dirty bomb in New York, and you are in the position to prevent it, and you let it happen, you are exactly as guilty as the actual perpetrator. And it has nothing to do with free will. It has everything to do with knowledge and permission and lack of prevention.
 
They are going to roll their eyes regardless of what you say. Just tell them the truth when necessary and disregard their mockery besides making reparation for it.
I would agree with that.

If you can’t convert someone to your belief by logic, you may be able to help them understand why you believe what you do, and that your beliefs are not inherently unreasonable. This can give them food for reflection down the road.

At best, I would begin by asking if they believe in the existence of truly evil behavior in the world. They may have trouble denying that, as it seems commonsensical to anyone who watches the news, and it is an integral part of their chief argument, that the presence of evil and suffering in the world makes it unlikely that there is a God who would permit it.

If they hold to a truly relativistic view of morality, that all behavior is cultural or “evolved” and thus there is no true evil, they would deny that Nazis, ISIS, child torturers, etc. were truly evil. Most will not be willing to go so far, at least in front of others. (Some are, and you may find you have no common ground for discussion at this point in their lives.)

If they accept that, you could ask if they believe in the objective existence of moral absolutes - i.e., do “Good” and “Evil” have some sort of existence that would be present even if there was no sentient being in the universe?

Most atheists will say no, as they are materialists and will be uncomfortable with the idea of moral absolutes existing as some kind of platonic ideal.

Suggest that moral qualities, such as Good and Evil exist only insofar that they are embodied as the attributes of a being that is capable of making moral decisions. When a lion kills a gazelle for food, or a cat kills a bird for sport, or a rock rolls down a hill and crushes a man, we do not consider that “evil” because we don’t consider animals or rocks capable of evil moral action.

We as Catholics consider all created things as having an origin (God as the sole uncreated being is the necessary and sole exception to that, which will likely by a side argument - don’t get distracted by this but be prepared to defend it), and thus, all good things originate from God, who is himself Goodness - the sole standard, or measuring stick if you will, for good actions. (This is also part of the best rebuke to a common atheist claim, that the Euthyphro argument is a true dilemma) Among those goods is the immeasurable gift of free will, which allows His creations to choose between Good and its shadow, Evil.

You can finally suggest that we consider evil, and evil actions, to be embodied in a person, or being, as well, whom we call by several names (and whom numerous other religions recognize and acknowledge in their own way) but who seems to us to be the source of much of the evil in the world. He is obviously less powerful than God and is not capable of creation, which is solely God’s provenance, but through his rebellious example, having been given the same choice to choose between Good and Evil (and through the other beings who give allegiance to him, and who made the same choice), and hates and seeks the ruination of mankind. He can be said to be the source, through his actions, of the evils - pride, anger, hatred, etc., that give rise to other evils. He does not directly tempt or cause every wrong that happens in the world, but most everything can ultimately be traced back to something else, including Evil.

They are unlikely to accept this if they hold to a solely materialist view of the world, but it will give them something to think about and perhaps help them to understand why our belief is not unreasonable, given our philosophical starting points.
 
At best, I would begin by asking if they believe in the existence of truly evil behavior in the world.
You move too fast. Before this question can come up, the conversation partners need to agree just what “evil” is. In the eyes of an orthodox Catholic, the mutual love (eros + agape + storge) and acting on the sexual part is already “evil” - if it happens between two people of the same sex. So the starting problem is the lack of the common definition. But there are more problems.

Suppose you ask if the torturing of someone innocent FOR FUN is always evil, regardless of everything else? I would agree that it is always evil. But this problem is not “absolute”, it has a qualifier: “FOR FUN”.

Try the absolute version: “is torturing someone innocent ALWAYS evil, regardless of the circumstances”? I would answer: “NO, under some very narrowly defined circumstances it would be necessary - and as such it could be justified.” (I suspect that you would disagree, but here we talk about the atheist’s concept.)

Now, let me reverse the question (“is torturing of someone innocent FOR FUN is always evil?”). I will wait for your answer, but I will tell you what I expect it to be. You can correct me, if I messed up. I will expect your answer: “No, torturing someone for fun is NOT EVIL, if God orders one to do it”. Maybe you can try to wiggle out by stipulating that God would NEVER order such an act, but that is irrelevant. In your view God is the foundation of all “good”, therefore WHATEVER God orders you to do is already “good” - by definition.

Your other questions or examples cannot be discussed until these two basic questions are decided. 🙂
 
Solmyr - I’m not really trying to disguise it, though Leibniz’s expression of the idea could have done with some more subtlety and distinction. It won’t do much good for me to try to get into a major reworking of it here, try doing some research if you want to get into that particular discussion. Instead I offer here the example of the Cross, which is the most fruitful object of meditation in theodicy.

You are frustrated with these arguments because you don’t believe in God. I’m reminded of the classical rule of theological studies in higher education that to be admitted to the program one must profess that program’s creed. It’s far more intellectually fruitful for you to stick mainly with the more basic questions surrounding God’s existence than to try to provide insight on the intricacies of the ramifications of that existence with people who do believe. You have repeatedly demonstrated your lack of understanding of the Catholic (and peripatetic, Western, and perennial) philosophy of God, in public threads and in private messages with me. Your zeal for arguments like you are here engaging in comes not from a genuine desire for truth pursuing but from your ego, something that I know quite a bit about myself, having a propensity to do the same thing.
 
And then two questions would arise:
  1. “why did God CREATE the devil”? and
  2. “which one is stronger”? The answer would be: “God is stronger”. So the next question would be: “Why does God allow the devil to exist?”… and then you have no RATIONAL answer.
Then call me irrational if you wish, for I have no explanation of why “God created the devil”, and do not even require one, unless (or until) he chooses to reveal all that is unfathomable.

It is enough for me to believe that God is the total essence of goodness and love, the ultimate power over evil.
So whatever God permits I accept as God’s reason for a greater purpose than any of us mere mortals can possibly comprehend.
 
You move too fast. Before this question can come up, the conversation partners need to agree just what “evil” is. In the eyes of an orthodox Catholic, the mutual love (eros + agape + storge) and acting on the sexual part is already “evil” - if it happens between two people of the same sex. So the starting problem is the lack of the common definition. But there are more problems.

Suppose you ask if the torturing of someone innocent FOR FUN is always evil, regardless of everything else? I would agree that it is always evil. But this problem is not “absolute”, it has a qualifier: “FOR FUN”.

Try the absolute version: “is torturing someone innocent ALWAYS evil, regardless of the circumstances”? I would answer: “NO, under some very narrowly defined circumstances it would be necessary - and as such it could be justified.” (I suspect that you would disagree, but here we talk about the atheist’s concept.)

Now, let me reverse the question (“is torturing of someone innocent FOR FUN is always evil?”). I will wait for your answer, but I will tell you what I expect it to be. You can correct me, if I messed up. I will expect your answer: “No, torturing someone for fun is NOT EVIL, if God orders one to do it”. Maybe you can try to wiggle out by stipulating that God would NEVER order such an act, but that is irrelevant. In your view God is the foundation of all “good”, therefore WHATEVER God orders you to do is already “good” - by definition.

Your other questions or examples cannot be discussed until these two basic questions are decided. 🙂
To declare that my expected response is irrelevant does not make it so by your fiat. It is in fact, wholly relevant. My mother cannot be my father, so to claim that my father would still be my father if he gave birth to me is a nonsensical statement.

God’s essential nature is such that He does not order people to torture an innocent person for fun. If he did, then the person who ordered that is not God.
 
God’s essential nature is such that He does not order people to torture an innocent person for fun. If he did, then the person who ordered that is not God.
Ordering Israelites to keep the virgins for their sexual gratification is a valid example. Ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaac is another. All you “proved” is that you are unwilling to answer hard-hitting questions.

Is sexual slavery “evil”? Not, if God orders it. Is human sacrifice “evil”? Not, if God orders it.

Of course the point is that in your world there is no “absolute evil”… only relative one. Whatever God orders is fine and dandy, no matter how horrible the act itself might be. Why is it problematic for you to answer with a resounding: “Of course!”. Might be because that would negate the so-called “absolute” morality?
 
Then call me irrational if you wish, for I have no explanation of why “God created the devil”, and do not even require one, unless (or until) he chooses to reveal all that is unfathomable.

It is enough for me to believe that God is the total essence of goodness and love, the ultimate power over evil.
So whatever God permits I accept as God’s reason for a greater purpose than any of us mere mortals can possibly comprehend.
I have no quarrel with this. It is a beautiful example of blind faith. 🙂 Best wishes for you.
 
Inasmuch as the intentions can conflict, viz. fun and obedience, it is a nonsense idea. God can except creatures from the natural law, but not from the eternal law (the kernel of which is the principle of noncontradiction).
 
You are frustrated with these arguments because you don’t believe in God.
You are mistaken, I am not frustrated, I am astonished. When I was a believer, I rejected the concept the “devil”, precisely for the same reason I reject it now. For a good, loving “entity” to keep around the “evil” is truly a contradiction.
You have repeatedly demonstrated your lack of understanding of the Catholic (and peripatetic, Western, and perennial) philosophy of God, in public threads and in private messages with me.
You confuse the “lack of understanding” with genuine disagreement. The “picture of God” as you “painted” (not just personally you) is fraught with contradictions. I am aware that the believers assert that these are not contradictions, but “mysteries”. But such “redefinitions” are also rejected.
 
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs. [/indent]
Indeed. He stated and defended his position on free will himself in another recent thread.
Why is this “free will” considered something mysterious? The libertarian definition of free will is rather simple. It needs three factors:
  1. There is an aim the agent wishes to achieve.
  2. There are at least two ways to achieve it.
  3. The locus of decision of which way to follow is within the agent.
The internal “workings” of the agents is not part of the question. A total brain control would negate the free will of the agent. If there in only one way (or no way) to achieve that goal then the agent’s free will is negated in that respect. If someone else applies force, then the agent has no free will in that respect. The buzzword is “in that respect”.

Free will is always applicable in conjunction with achieving a certain goal, and it incorporates the freedom to act on that will. Free will without free action is nonsense.

And, of course all these decisions occur within the brain and its electro-chemical activity. 🙂
By this definition my dishwasher has free will. It meets all 3 criteria.
  1. It aims to wash the dishes
  2. It could continue to wash or stop
  3. It uses it’s ‘smart wash’ function to measure the dirt content in the water to decide if it should keep washing or stop.
And no I don’t need a reply. I post this for the OP’s benefit only.

To the OP. I only post this so you understand some of the things you may have to deal with regarding some atheists limited understanding of Free Will.
 
By this definition my dishwasher has free will. It meets all 3 criteria.
  1. It aims to wash the dishes
  2. It could continue to wash or stop
  3. It uses it’s ‘smart wash’ function to measure the dirt content in the water to decide if it should keep washing or stop.
If you think that a dishwasher is an agent and has an “aim”, then you are really confused. Oh, and there is only one way it could clean the dishes… by using the water and the detergent.

So, no cigar.
And no I don’t need a reply.
When someone makes a post to me, or about me, then I usually prefer to acknowledge it. If that bothers you, you have the option of not talk to me, or about me.
 
Ordering Israelites to keep the virgins for their sexual gratification is a valid example. Ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaac is another. All you “proved” is that you are unwilling to answer hard-hitting questions.

Is sexual slavery “evil”? Not, if God orders it. Is human sacrifice “evil”? Not, if God orders it.

Of course the point is that in your world there is no “absolute evil”… only relative one. Whatever God orders is fine and dandy, no matter how horrible the act itself might be. Why is it problematic for you to answer with a resounding: “Of course!”. Might be because that would negate the so-called “absolute” morality?
So you are a Biblical literalist, then?
 
So you are a Biblical literalist, then?
Nope, not I. As far as I am concerned, the bible is a semi-interesting collection of stories, some of which might have a historical foundation, while others are pure fantasy. The trouble is that the Catholic church never issued a definitive list of which chapters and verses are to be understood literally, and which ones should be read allegorically. Imagine… 2000+ years and no definitive analysis of the “holy scriptures”. 🙂

But the church teaches that God is always “right”, whatever God tell you to do is always morally correct, and disobeying God is always “sinful”. As such there is no absolute “right or wrong”, it is what God (allegedly) tells you. You know, this is the old Euthyphro dilemma in disguise… which is one of the perennial thorns in the side of Christianity, the other being the “problem of evil”.
 
To the OP, my suggestion about how to talk about the devil to an atheist is to be very clear about what you believe the devil is. Very much to the point is this comment:
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eamonnroma:
Do we believe that Satan exists as an entity?
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Beautiful:
Try referring to it as negativity.
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Frankenfurter:
You can use ‘forces of evil’ or the culturally acceptable ‘dark side of the force’.
I would expect that most atheists would readily accept that negativity (as a way of thinking and acting) exists and that people can have harmful or evil tendencies. But I doubt that many would agree that the Force itself actually exists. If the devil is just an allegorical embodiment, then most atheists would, I think, accept it as a possibly useful literary technique. But this approach will get you nowhere if you contend that the devil exists as an entity.
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slMike:
You can recommend that they Google “real exorcisms”
fred conty:
Tell them to play with the weegee board for a few hours.
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e_c:
The Devil is one of those opponents. He is pure spirit… . . . Since we believe we have indeed encountered and continue to encounter such creatures, in good ways (as some of the most notable mystics have), or in bad ways (like in cases of real possession, some of which have been extremely well documented), . . .
If any of these is your chosen approach, be ready to convince the atheist that entities of ‘pure spirit’ exist, that demonic possession exists and that a ouija board can be used to interact with spirits or demons. Good luck with that. I think that most atheists will be skeptical.
 
Arizona Mike:
We as Catholics consider all created things as having an origin . . ., and thus, all good things originate from God, who is himself Goodness . . .
You can finally suggest that we consider evil, and evil actions, to be embodied in a person, or being, as well, whom we call by several names (and whom numerous other religions recognize and acknowledge in their own way) but who seems to us to be the source of much of the evil in the world.
Mike, I don’t understand your use of ‘thus’ in the first part of this quote. You haven’t explained why created things (things capable of good and evil and neutral actions) having an origin necessitates God as an embodiment of Goodness from which all good things originate. Without this explanation, your suggestion that evil is also embodied in a being carries no weight. Could you please explain?
 
Mike, I don’t understand your use of ‘thus’ in the first part of this quote. You haven’t explained why created things (things capable of good and evil and neutral actions) having an origin necessitates God as an embodiment of Goodness from which all good things originate. Without this explanation, your suggestion that evil is also embodied in a being carries no weight. Could you please explain?
If all created things have an origin, and if you agree that the qualities of good and evil do not exist in isolation, but as behavior in a moral being, from whence comes the ultimate origin of Good? The Prime Mover as the origin of potentiality and action and creation also includes the origin of Good.
 
Did God create hell?

Did God create the rules of the universe including the criteria by which souls are judged?

Does anything happen that doesn’t go according to God’s will?
 
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