What's the best way to talk about the devil to an atheist?

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mikekle said:
Yes, this is what God wanted, but in creating beings with free will, its 50/50 whether they will choose to obey their creator or not, if it were ‘true’ free will, there would be no punishment (hell, suffering for eternity), for simply exercising it (imo anyway).
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That is not the case. I am not unfree if I can choose between multiple options, even if some of them have negative consequences. Kids who disobey their parents demonstrate that they are free to do so, even if they face punishment for it.

Usagi
 
John 8:34-36:Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave. Now a slave has no permanent standing in the household, but a son belongs to it for ever. So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free.
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Nuff said.
 
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Nixbits:
Are you asserting that God is not an intelligent entity in this context? Perhaps you could explain.
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e_c:
Yes, I am asserting that, and it is a pretty basic idea in Catholic philosophy (and in the history of the philosophy of God).
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Apologies if I am being dense, but I’d like to clarify this. Are you saying that God is not an intelligent entity? Or is it just in the context of this discussion that we should not think of Him as one?

If it’s the former, then I think you’re saying that God is not an intelligent thing with distinct and independent existence. I don’t see how that can be in accordance with any concept of the Christian God. I suspect that there is some nuance of terminology that I’m not familiar with that explains this apparent contradiction.
 
" But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. " James 2 v 16

In other words it is by our attitude and values, by our way of living, our treatment of others, by the way we help the poor, the marginalised, the defeated of our societies that we touch the hearts of darkness. Talk is cheap, theology is just so many words, unless our lives live out the truths Yeshua ( Jesus) gave us. You do not convince an atheist by debate but by the way you live your life.
 
Peccavi said:
" But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. " James 2 v 16

In other words it is by our attitude and values, by our way of living, our treatment of others, by the way we help the poor, the marginalised, the defeated of our societies that we touch the hearts of darkness. Talk is cheap, theology is just so many words, unless our lives live out the truths Yeshua ( Jesus) gave us. You do not convince an atheist by debate but by the way you live your life.
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👍

‘Spread the Gospel. If necessary, use words.’

Words are just vague pointers to real things. Talking with Atheists always reminds me of
something I learned in dog training class: When you point at something, the dog looks at your hand.
 
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Frankenfurter:
Talking with Atheists always reminds me of something I learned in dog training class: When you point at something, the dog looks at your hand.
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This made me smile. You are saying that when someone uses a communication method that the intended recipient is not familiar with, the message is not understood. In the case of a person trying to communicate with the dog, the fault is very much with the human who supposedly has a superior intelligence compared with the dog. In all cases, if you truly hope to communicate, then you have to choose the right method.
 
Frankenfurter said:
👍

‘Spread the Gospel. If necessary, use words.’

Words are just vague pointers to real things. Talking with Atheists always reminds me of
something I learned in dog training class: When you point at something, the dog looks at your hand.
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Wow. That is just so very rude and belittling. Whole lot of “love” here,
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
He wanted them to choose to obey Him. But you know the rest…
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How can one choose to obey when there is no other alternative. The story of the Garden of Eden, to me, is best how the ancient Jewish people believed they came about as well as trying to determine why some things happen. No “fall of man” because how can one fall when they have no idea what the difference is.
 
NM505StKate said:
How can one choose to obey when there is no other alternative. The story of the Garden of Eden, to me, is best how the ancient Jewish people believed they came about as well as trying to determine why some things happen. No “fall of man” because how can one fall when they have no idea what the difference is.
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Yes, this is why I believe ‘the fall’ was intended, Satan is doing exactly what he is created for…he is the alternative, there had to be someone opposing God, or another choice, in order for people to even be able to make choices in the first place.

Satan cannot do ANYTHING unless God allows it, this includes coming up to Eve in the garden, if God did not allow him to do this, we would not have the world we have today, there would be no ‘enemy’ no temptations to sin being whispered in your ear, we would all be like Adam and Eve.
 
mikekle said:
Yes, this is why I believe ‘the fall’ was intended, Satan is doing exactly what he is created for…he is the alternative, there had to be someone opposing God, or another choice, in order for people to even be able to make choices in the first place.

Satan cannot do ANYTHING unless God allows it, this includes coming up to Eve in the garden, if God did not allow him to do this, we would not have the world we have today, there would be no ‘enemy’ no temptations to sin being whispered in your ear, we would all be like Adam and Eve.
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So then God wanted humans to suffer and even some to go hell? Am I understanding you correctly?
 
NM505StKate said:
How can one choose to obey when there is no other alternative. The story of the Garden of Eden, to me, is best how the ancient Jewish people believed they came about as well as trying to determine why some things happen. No “fall of man” because how can one fall when they have no idea what the difference is.
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There WAS an alternative: death.
 
NM505StKate said:
Wow. That is just so very rude and belittling. Whole lot of “love” here,
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Thise who say the truth are always perceived as rude. John the Baptist was one example.
We also have our Lord himself.

I think you need to do some re-thinking here Kate.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
The essential truths of the Bible - contained in the Apostolic Creed - are literal. God created the earth and men’s souls, He created a Covenant with mankind through his Chosen People. and through them was brought the fruition of the Son of God, who was born, suffered, and died for our Salvation, and through Him, we can achieve eternal life.

The other truths are no less true for possibly being written in a lyrical or even metaphorical style. Did Job or Jonah exist and did their stories happen exactly as told? The lessons we learn from them are no less true, even if they could have been meant as teaching stories… The signs by which the books of the Old Testament point to the coming of the Lord are true. We have outside evidence for much of the events described in the Old Testament.

Are the Gospels and Epistles literally true? I say yes.
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Having just read your posts, I thank you for articulating so effectively an apparent deep understanding of the Bible. 👍
 
Arizona_Mike said:
The essential truths of the Bible - contained in the Apostolic Creed - are literal. God created the earth and men’s souls, He created a Covenant with mankind through his Chosen People. and through them was brought the fruition of the Son of God, who was born, suffered, and died for our Salvation, and through Him, we can achieve eternal life.

The other truths are no less true for possibly being written in a lyrical or even metaphorical style. Did Job or Jonah exist and did their stories happen exactly as told? The lessons we learn from them are no less true, even if they could have been meant as teaching stories… The signs by which the books of the Old Testament point to the coming of the Lord are true. We have outside evidence for much of the events described in the Old Testament.

Are the Gospels and Epistles literally true? I say yes.
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I have to disagree. Here is a link for you. skeptical-science.com/religion/how-accurate-are-the-gospels/

It can be reasoned that the fables of Aesop are just as good if not better for giving good morals. Also what outside evidence is here?
 
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