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puzzleannie
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The position of Catholic men or of Catholic women?
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cynic
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The whole idea of ‘giving oneself’ even when you don’t want to is sick. Sex is desire, without mutual desire it is pointless. Nobody should be emotionally blackmailed into giving sex to the other as a duty. The whole point of it is that it is mutual, that each recieves satisfaction from each other, and satisfaction form knwoing you have made the other happy, not one person ‘giving it up’. I personally can’t undertand how any man could have sex with his wife KNOWING that she didn’t want to, it’s shameful. Arousal should be based at least partly on the knowledge that the other person wants the same thing. How could you lool them in the eye knowing that they’re only doing it for your sake…eeeewwwwww
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puzzleannie
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no, our role as married couples is to assist and support each other to become holy. All creation is enjoined by the Creator to be fruitful and multiply, according the laws of nature. Part of the cycle of nature is that there are times when fertility wanes, when sexual activity is out of place, to every thing there is a season and a time for every purpose under the heavens. You are not describing a moral problem, or a spiritual problem, but a matter of communication, of honesty, of true intimacy, of sensitivity to the needs of each other (and the ability to discern between real needs and mere wants or desires).
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cheddarsox
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It is not always emotional blackmail or “giving it up”, you yourself pointed out that there can be satisfaction in knowing you made your partner happy. Sometimes that can be reason enough. I do many things I wouldn’t do otherwise to bring joy to my partner because I get satisfaction from bringing him joy. He isn’t blackmailing me, I do it of my own free will. I cook meals he likes, go to some movies I don’t care for, put up with his annoying dog, lots of stuff. It is part of being in a relationship.
And it is not always the man that wants and the woman that doesn’t. There are plenty of times, in and out of bed, he does things for me because he loves me and wants to bring me joy and show his love.
What I am talking about here is not one partner forcing or coercing the other. It is about the less interested partner FREELY deciding to participate out of love for their spouse. Those are very different things.
As different as giving money to charity is to being robbed.
cheddar
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Katie1723
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Just as the less interested partner can freely decide not to without feeling guilty.Ask yourself this…How much better is it for both if each want to,not with this “ok if I have to” attitude.
All I am saying is it is sooooo much better for both to be “desirous”
~ Kathy ~
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Topher
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St. Paul says tha spouses should not keep from having sex for too long a period. He says that such over abstinance in marriage can lead to temptation to sin.
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migurl
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I’ve seen a couple posts here put up by people who obviuosly don’t understand the phrase “Love is sacrifice”
Considere this: If a child doesn’t like getting up in the morning and making breakfast for her siblings, but is asked (or rather, told) to by her parents, isn’t she supposed to? God said to obey our parents. So whether she wants to or not, she still has to. Now think about this: if the same girl gets sick or stayed up late finishing homework, wouldn’t it be nice of her family to help her out? Yes. Does she have a good reason for not wanting to? Yes. Out of love for her, her family would let her rest and take care of breakfast for her.
Now, back to sex between husband and wife. My fiance and I have discussed this thuroughly. Sex is a part of Marriage, it is the giving of yourself in a way that God has blessed for the Sacrement of MArriage. Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote a beautiful book called “Three to Get Married” that discusses this quite well. He touches on how men give in a recieving way and women recieve in a giving way.
Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is, the mindset has to be right. Obviusly it would be unfair for a husband or wife to demand sex no matter what. A spouse should consider the mental and physical health of their beloved. There have been times when I have had a horrible day (or week) and I just don’t want to be touched, my fiance wants to cuddle. KNow what he does? He takes me in his arms and tells me how much he loves me and all sorts of beautiful things, and then I relax and am so glad that I let him hold me. Now, if I felt like throwing up, he would have just sat beside me and ran his fingers thru my hair.
Some people here have the wrong thoughts in mind when arguing that it is a form of Rape. If you LOVE your spouse like you are called to, then you will never feel used. YOu will look into your spouses eyes and feel joy and loved that they need you so badly, that you are the person that their heart, body and soul calls out for. The spuose that desires to make love should also realize that if they LOVE their spouse that they will be able to tend to the needs of their spouse and ignore their own desires if that is the situation, say for example if you have a sick child and got little to no sleep the night before, it would be loving of your spouse to let you sleep. It works both ways. but the LOVE has to be there. if it isn’t, then the two have no business being married. I do much for my fiance out of love for him, even if it is difficult, time-consuming, emotionally draining or somethign I flat out don’t want to do. ANd you know what? He does the same for me. Remember the “BETTER OR FOR WORSE” part of the marriage vow?
I know a married couple well enough that the wife had given me advice about sex in marriage. She told me of times when she wasn’t really in the mood, she was tired and her husband really needed her. SHe would make love to him without climaxing but afterwards they would hold eachother and she would fall asleep with a smile on her face thanking God for the ability to bring joy, pleasure and peace to her husband. Now THAT is a great woman.
Considere this: If a child doesn’t like getting up in the morning and making breakfast for her siblings, but is asked (or rather, told) to by her parents, isn’t she supposed to? God said to obey our parents. So whether she wants to or not, she still has to. Now think about this: if the same girl gets sick or stayed up late finishing homework, wouldn’t it be nice of her family to help her out? Yes. Does she have a good reason for not wanting to? Yes. Out of love for her, her family would let her rest and take care of breakfast for her.
Now, back to sex between husband and wife. My fiance and I have discussed this thuroughly. Sex is a part of Marriage, it is the giving of yourself in a way that God has blessed for the Sacrement of MArriage. Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote a beautiful book called “Three to Get Married” that discusses this quite well. He touches on how men give in a recieving way and women recieve in a giving way.
Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is, the mindset has to be right. Obviusly it would be unfair for a husband or wife to demand sex no matter what. A spouse should consider the mental and physical health of their beloved. There have been times when I have had a horrible day (or week) and I just don’t want to be touched, my fiance wants to cuddle. KNow what he does? He takes me in his arms and tells me how much he loves me and all sorts of beautiful things, and then I relax and am so glad that I let him hold me. Now, if I felt like throwing up, he would have just sat beside me and ran his fingers thru my hair.
Some people here have the wrong thoughts in mind when arguing that it is a form of Rape. If you LOVE your spouse like you are called to, then you will never feel used. YOu will look into your spouses eyes and feel joy and loved that they need you so badly, that you are the person that their heart, body and soul calls out for. The spuose that desires to make love should also realize that if they LOVE their spouse that they will be able to tend to the needs of their spouse and ignore their own desires if that is the situation, say for example if you have a sick child and got little to no sleep the night before, it would be loving of your spouse to let you sleep. It works both ways. but the LOVE has to be there. if it isn’t, then the two have no business being married. I do much for my fiance out of love for him, even if it is difficult, time-consuming, emotionally draining or somethign I flat out don’t want to do. ANd you know what? He does the same for me. Remember the “BETTER OR FOR WORSE” part of the marriage vow?
I know a married couple well enough that the wife had given me advice about sex in marriage. She told me of times when she wasn’t really in the mood, she was tired and her husband really needed her. SHe would make love to him without climaxing but afterwards they would hold eachother and she would fall asleep with a smile on her face thanking God for the ability to bring joy, pleasure and peace to her husband. Now THAT is a great woman.
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migurl
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First of all, sex is not desire. The marital act is the union of husband and wife for the purpose of bonding and producing children. Desire is something God created to make Sex pleasurable and wanted instead of a routine thing like brushing your teeth.
A man would want to make love to his wife KNOWING that she loves him so much that she would put her personal desires aside in order to bring him joy. What is love if you don’t do somthing for the others sake? Love is not selfish, love is kind etc. Read the Bible lately? Love and Marriage is not about doing things for yourself, it is about loving someone so much that you would die for them like Christ died for the Church. Sex is not just about recieving satisfaction, it is about giving of yoursefl completely and unselfishly, otherwise Love isn’t there, it is merely lust, for lust is about oneself, about ones desires, and about ones satisfaction. What you speak of is lust and a kind of “sex” completely absent of love, respect and not what God created marriage for. If this is how you view sex, I hope you aren’t married or planning on getting married until you read what the Church and Christ teaches about Love and the Sacrement of Marriage.
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cheddarsox
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Yes, of course. I would think that was a given. But unfortunately that is not the situation the OP brought to us.
cheddar
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Belgarion
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Ghostgirl said:“Just do it anyway?”
It’s not exactly rape, but close enough to it to be really offensive. I guess under some definitions it would be.
is staying far, far away from Catholic guys now
You are very funny ya know
I believe you don’t understand this subject enough to tell people what is offensive and what isn’t
Do you think these women who are objecting to your comments think that giving yourself to your husband out of love is rape?
Try to understand situations before you jump in with your less- than -popular comments
And have a good day!
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Belgarion
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AND YOU!
you really don’t know what love is, do you?
I’m 16 and, of course, unmarried. so that means that I have not experienced any of this kind of stuff…
but the fact that I am a virgin and I STILL know about self-sacrifice and what love really is…well it sotra puts you types to shame,
you should really KNOW what you are talking about before you put your two-cents in
Have a nice day!
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cynic
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Union and bonding are based on desire!!! the desire to do that. Everything can be reduced to desire, the desire to make your spouse happy is still desire. But if a wife doesn’t feel the need to bond, is not in the mood, or feels satisfied with the relationship without physically expressing it at that moment, then what is a man basing his arousal on? Sounds like selfish lust to me, if your want to start throwing around that word.
Your statemets are hypocrisy : it’s ok for a women to ‘give her husband joy’ - but what is the husband doing if he knows the act is not also bringing his wife joy and satisfaction? like it is for him? It must be based on his own satisfaction, which you’ve defined as lust. If it’s not mutual then one partner must be lusting (Duh) ie it’s not ok to lust for yourself but it’s ok to satisfy someone elses…
If your going to make a clear dilineation between lust and wholesome desire you’re going to have to do better than that. Even your church acknowledges that mutual desire is neccessary for ‘proper union’
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migurl
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It is one thing to be ill and not want to have sex and a completely different thing to “just not be in the mood” Of course a husband should think about his wife, but sometimes it can be the husband who is tired or not in the mood but he gives himself to his wife. Lust is when there is no love at all, just the desire for a physical connection. But if a husband wants to be intimate with his wife then there is nothing wrong with that. Lust is selfish, but love is not. So if the husband is always forcing her to, then there is a problem, but just because a husband or wife asks for their spouse to put their personal feelings or lack of aside to join together in such an intimate way.
I have to ask, are you in a seriuos relationship right now? Are you in love? I love my fiance very much, and like I said before, I don’t think he is selfish for coming to me for conversation, intamacy (of the cuddling sort) or any other kind of help. I am happy that he would count on me for such things, in fact I would be hurt or feel like I had failed somehow if I was not there for him or if he had gone to someone else instead. I am always glad to give of my time, energy, love and mind and eventually my body to him because I love him more than anyone else (except Our Lord of course!) In return he does the same for me. He takes time to call me or to listen to me even during his very busy day, he’s even taken time off to be with me because I needed him. Love is sacrifice, and perhaps you could argue that the husband shouldn’t “make” his wife have sex with him and that is kind of true, it’s one of those case by case situations. you can’t expect that everytime a wife says “i’m not in the mood” to result in no sex, just like no one should expect to always get what they want. I’m saying that if you really love your spouse that you will do anything to make them happy, and if the wife seriously objects for serious reasons, her husband will get the message if she really wants him to. But if the wife realizes that his need or want for intamacy is greater than her feelings for not having sex, then she should realize that giving of herself will not only bring him joy, but herself joy as well for fulfiling his wish. It is a complicated thing, but that is love, and if you were in a serious relationship (engagement, marriage) then perhaps it would be easier to understand. Understand that desire was put into existence by God to help lead us to things he wants for us, so while we feel the desire to make love it is not a lustful thing to want intamacy with ones spouse. If it became merely an act of physical release, then it would be wrong. Sex is not desire, desire leads to sex. Sex is so much more than desire. It is love, it is unity and it is life-giving. The sex you speak of is the kind of sex most teens partake in to “feel cool”. Catholics don’t veiw this as the proper form or context for sex, that is a sin, not a act of love.
I have to ask, are you in a seriuos relationship right now? Are you in love? I love my fiance very much, and like I said before, I don’t think he is selfish for coming to me for conversation, intamacy (of the cuddling sort) or any other kind of help. I am happy that he would count on me for such things, in fact I would be hurt or feel like I had failed somehow if I was not there for him or if he had gone to someone else instead. I am always glad to give of my time, energy, love and mind and eventually my body to him because I love him more than anyone else (except Our Lord of course!) In return he does the same for me. He takes time to call me or to listen to me even during his very busy day, he’s even taken time off to be with me because I needed him. Love is sacrifice, and perhaps you could argue that the husband shouldn’t “make” his wife have sex with him and that is kind of true, it’s one of those case by case situations. you can’t expect that everytime a wife says “i’m not in the mood” to result in no sex, just like no one should expect to always get what they want. I’m saying that if you really love your spouse that you will do anything to make them happy, and if the wife seriously objects for serious reasons, her husband will get the message if she really wants him to. But if the wife realizes that his need or want for intamacy is greater than her feelings for not having sex, then she should realize that giving of herself will not only bring him joy, but herself joy as well for fulfiling his wish. It is a complicated thing, but that is love, and if you were in a serious relationship (engagement, marriage) then perhaps it would be easier to understand. Understand that desire was put into existence by God to help lead us to things he wants for us, so while we feel the desire to make love it is not a lustful thing to want intamacy with ones spouse. If it became merely an act of physical release, then it would be wrong. Sex is not desire, desire leads to sex. Sex is so much more than desire. It is love, it is unity and it is life-giving. The sex you speak of is the kind of sex most teens partake in to “feel cool”. Catholics don’t veiw this as the proper form or context for sex, that is a sin, not a act of love.
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Tibbar
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If one is “going through the motions,” one is deceiving one’s self as well as one’s partner. As for the “good and faithful Catholics” who responded to this post…A few questions: Did Mary and Joseph have sex? Are you sure? Is it a matter of infallible Magisterial teaching that they did or did not? If they did have sex, do you think they practiced NFP or the sympto-thermal method?
Marriage is much much more than sex. It is up to the couple to decide whether or not they will engage in sexual relations with one another, not the Church.
From what I can tell, if one partner does not want sex and the other one does, the one that does should defer to the one that does not. Otherwise such sex becomes nothing more than a crime of rape.
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migurl
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I give up. No one wants to hear about how they are supposed to do things they don’t want to do. THat is so Catholic. God did not say that we are to preform our Catholic duties unless someone is taking advatage of us, or asking to much of us. Did Mother Theresa every stop her work because she was tired? DOn’t yuo think it must have been hard giving so much of herself all of the time? Of course! But she did out of love for God and His children, even if theose people weren’t grateful or loving back to her. If every Catholic gave up and did what they wanted just becausethey think its only fair, they should stop being Catholic.
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Brendan
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Joshephite marriages are only possible when both parties agree.
In other cases, where one party desires the marital embrace and the other does not, barring any medical issues, the marital debt applies.
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Shiann
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Mary’s perpetual virginity is DOGMA of the Catholic Church. That means she, according to our Faith, NEVER had sex. That is a matter of infallible Magisterial teaching, Tradition, and Scriptural. Your other questions are moot in light of this answer.
Virgin Birth-
newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm
Dogma-
newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm
Mary Ever Virgin-
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
If you have further questions after reviewing the information above, do a quick search for Mary on this forum. It should reveal a number of threads on the issue. If you are still unable to have answers to these questions- please form a new thread in respect for the topic at hand.
Of course the Church is not dictating that couples will have sex every third Tuesday at 9:30 in the evening… But the Church- as a party in the Sacrament of Marriage, does have a responsibility to remind people of their vows. Among those vows is love, honor and cherish- till death; not until I’m not feeling amorous.
If the wife desires the marital embrace when the husband isn’t feeling in the mood- the wife has an opportunity to reach beyond his lack of desire- and communicate with him, or take special care of him, in other words, find out the root of his lack of desire and help him through it. Entice that desire from him.
From the perspective of the husband in this situation, he has a repsonsibility to respond to his wife’s desire. If he has no desire- he has a responsibility to allow her into his heart and mind so that the two of them can find satisfaction. Desire can be coaxed, it can be nurtured, and the sacrament of marriage gives the right to naturally coax that desire to each of the parties in that marriage without fear of rejection or retribution.
It is really too bad that so many on this thread have insisted on comparing the violent and utterly dispicable crime of rape to the sometimes “out of synch” libidos of a man and his wife.
I believe that many here have stated that there are times when a husband and wife need to understand that their partner cannot perform the marital embrace at this every given time. The Church agrees with this as well.
Please, let’s respect those who have been victims of rape- and refrain from using this comparison any longer when describing the situations where a husband and wife are giving of their bodies when one may not feel very much in the mood.
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migurl
Guest
Wonderfully worded Shiann!!! Thank you!
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