What's the difference between Lutherin and Evangelical Lutherin

[Juliebug108]

Does the Lutheran church really teach that the pope is the anti-Christ or is it just a few pastors?

It’s an official church position…but I have never heard it actually taught within the church or during a service. It’s come up in conversations in my experience, but I have never heard it be taught from the lectern. Like I said before, I would be really surprised if many Lutherans actually believed it.

Luther believed it…and so does the LCMS…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Alix1912]

You’re talking about the general confession…that’s not really on par with individually consulting a pastor or priest to receive absolution, which was very much what Luther practiced…Even our catechism has a walk-through of how to go through private confession.

Also, not to sound rude, but I’m having trouble figuring out your point. Many Catholics don’t regularly confess…so…what? The question was about Lutheran confession…

Ok, but it is a doctrine of the LCMS regardless.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

I’m saying there is a mechanism in the Lutheran Church for both general and personal confession…as you pointed out it is in the catechism. However, you stated that most Lutheran’s don’t practice it, I’m saying most Catholics don’t on any regular basis as well. Also the general confession for Lutherans is part of the litergury and must happen before communion.

 

[Serap]

I’m saying there is a mechanism in the Lutheran Church for both general and personal confession…as you pointed out it is in the catechism. However, you stated that most Lutheran’s don’t practice it, I’m saying most Catholics don’t on any regular basis as well. Also the general confession for Lutherans is part of the litergury and must happen before communion.

They are asked to bow their heads and confess quietly during mass?

 

[Juliebug108]

I’m saying there is a mechanism in the Lutheran Church for both general and personal confession…as you pointed out it is in the catechism. However, you stated that most Lutheran’s don’t practice it, I’m saying most Catholics don’t on any regular basis as well. Also the general confession for Lutherans is part of the litergury and must happen before communion.

Thanks for clarifying

Here’s my experience: I’ve been a member of 4 Lutheran churches in my life. Two ELCA, and two LCMS. I was baptized, did first Communion, and was confirmed in the ELCA. What’s strange is that the ELCA always did the general confession before Communion, but my LCMS churches, on the other hand, very rarely do/did…

…but my current LCMS church also teaches that God doesn’t see our sins, and teach that confession is only to comfort us because God doesn’t see it anyway…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

They are asked to bow their heads and confess quietly during mass?

There is generally a recitation from the Pastor and the congregation, where the Pastor then says something along the lines of “By the power and authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you your sins…” Something like that. There is usually a moment for silent reflection…my church rarely does this, but the ELCA churches I was raised in always did.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Serap]

Thanks for clarifying

Here’s my experience: I’ve been a member of 4 Lutheran churches in my life. Two ELCA, and two LCMS. I was baptized, did first Communion, and was confirmed in the ELCA. What’s strange is that the ELCA always did the general confession before Communion, but my LCMS churches, on the other hand, very rarely do/did…

…but my current LCMS church also teaches that God doesn’t see our sins, and teach that confession is only to comfort us because God doesn’t see it anyway…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

How can God not see our sins? Please explain what is meant by this.

 

[Juliebug108]

How can God not see our sins? Please explain what is meant by this.

I wish I could explain it - LOL!

I have no clue! It’s one of the main things leading me away from the Lutheran church.

 

[Serap]

I wish I could explain it - LOL!

I have no clue! It’s one of the main things leading me away from the Lutheran church.

'cause I can tell ya right now that I can see when my kids are ready for a time out!!!

 

[pablope]

Yup…the LCMS teaches this as well. To clarify, they do not make the claim that any specific Pope is/was the anti-Christ, but rather, the Papal office…I’m not sure how to explain it, so I’ll post the link:

The Antichrist and the Papacy - The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod

Seriously over-the-top and extreme…BUT I’d be surprised if many Lutherans actually believe this. I certainly don’t.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Hi, all…

i checked the link and I would like to post this from the link:

However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.

Question:

How could one separate the Office from the Pope? I think it is one way around to saying the pope is the anti-christ. And I cannot believe Lutherans espouse this?

[SIGN] The latter could be Christians themselves.[/SIGN]

And their are not sure the pope is a christian…but could be a christian?

 

[Juliebug108]

Question:

How could one separate the Office from the Pope? I think it is one way around to saying the pope is the anti-christ. And I cannot believe Lutherans espouse this?

Yeah I’m not sure…it’s absurd. I wouldn’t say “Lutherans” espouse it…but the governing body of some synods do… idk…it’s craziness.

Luther was pretty clear about his feelings though:

A treatise of Martin Luther written shortly before his death in 1546 was entitled, “Against the Roman Papacy; an Institution of the Devil.” Luther began the holy tirade thus:

“The Most Hellish Father, Saint Paul III, in his supposed capacity as the bishop of the Roman church…” (Luther’s Works, Fortress Press, Volume 41, pg 263). In that treatise he says that the pope is “the head of the accursed church of all the worst scoundrels on earth, a vicar of the devil, an enemy of God, an adversary of Christ, a destroyer of Christ’s churches, a teacher of lies… a brothel-keeper over all brothel-keepers and all vermin, even that which cannot be named; an Antichrist…” (ibid., page 357-358).

Yikes…

 

[JonNC]

Hi, all…

i checked the link and I would like to post this from the link:

Question:

How could one separate the Office from the Pope? I think it is one way around to saying the pope is the anti-christ. And I cannot believe Lutherans espouse this?

[SIGN] The latter could be Christians themselves.[/SIGN]

And their are not sure the pope is a christian…but could be a christian?

How can one separate the office from the man? Looking at it from the reverse, is it fair to say that most Americans have agreat deal of respect for the office of president, but lack that same respect for the person of Richard Nixon, because of his involvement in the Watergate scandal?
What the reformers were saying about the office of the papacy is outlined in “A Treatise in the Power and Primacy of the Pope”. The opening paragraphs say:

The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.

They were using the term anti-christ as opposed to Christ, in terms of the teachings regarding the office itself. they were not speaking in the same way we hear about an end-times beast of some sort. Understanding the level of tension at that time, and the dramatic reduction of said level of tension, it is easy to see why Lutherans today do not hold the same view.

I’ve never heard any Lutheran claim that popes or Catholics in general are not Christian.
And as I’ve said often, Pope John Paul II is the greatest Christian leader of my lifetime, bar none. And Pope Benedict is not far behind.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Ok, but it is a doctrine of the LCMS regardless.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

I would not call it a doctrine, as it is not an article of faith. Lutherans are not required to believe the papacy is anti-Christ. When I am told I am required to accept it as doctrine, I’ll walk.
While we still disagree with the level of power and primacy that the Catholic Church claims for the Bishop of Rome, the actions of today’s papacy is a far cry from what the reformers experienced.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

They are asked to bow their heads and confess quietly during mass?

Along these lines:

P: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
C: But if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

P: Let us then confess our sins to God our Father.
C: Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against You in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name. Amen

P: Almighty God in His mercy has given His Son to die for you and for His sake forgives you all your sins. As a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the + Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I suspect you will find this similar to your confession of sins at the beginning of Mass, though we do not invoke the Blessed Virgin.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

…but my current LCMS church also teaches that God doesn’t see our sins, and teach that confession is only to comfort us because God doesn’t see it anyway…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

I’m very much struggling with what you say here, as I’ve heard you say this before. This is not the teaching of scripture, The Lutheran Confessions, or the LCMS.
TheAugsburg Confession states:

*Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance. *

If sins were not seen by God, then confession would be unnecessary, and Holy Absolution would not be possible (God could not obsolve what He could not see).

If what you are saying is being taught by your pastor, I recommend you speak to him, and if necessary, to your district president.

Jon

 

[Juliebug108]

I would not call it a doctrine, as it is not an article of faith. Lutherans are not required to believe the papacy is anti-Christ. When I am told I am required to accept it as doctrine, I’ll walk.
While we still disagree with the level of power and primacy that the Catholic Church claims for the Bishop of Rome, the actions of today’s papacy is a far cry from what the reformers experienced.

I think that our use of the word “doctrine” is a little different…true, it’s not an article of faith…but doctrine works as I’m using it.

merriam webster:

Definition of doctrine
1
archaic : teaching, instruction
2
a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief

From the LCMS official website:

Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, **we affirm **the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above.

The use of the word “affirm” is pretty strong and clear. To affirm literally means to state as a fact, or as truth. That is the LCMS official position on the matter…I don’t really think there is any way to bend that…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

I’m very much struggling with what you say here, as I’ve heard you say this before. This is not the teaching of scripture, The Lutheran Confessions, or the LCMS.
TheAugsburg Confession states:

*Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance. *

If sins were not seen by God, then confession would be unnecessary, and Holy Absolution would not be possible (God could not obsolve what He could not see).

If what you are saying is being taught by your pastor, I recommend you speak to him, and if necessary, to your district president.

Jon

This is exactly why I am struggling with this as well. Here’s a HUGE problem for me: My pastor is the District Vice President.

Exact words from the pastors: “God no longer sees our sins,” “our sins are now hidden from God,” and “God only sees us as His perfect and forgiven children.”

I’ve really been doing tons of research on this, however, and it is in line with Lutheran theology…I’ve never heard this until just recently. It’s really upsetting and frustrating me.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

I just wanted to add the following:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2632

we confess our sins to our gracious Father in heaven because we know and trust that Jesus has already paid the price for them and will surely forgive us as he has promised to do. The forgiveness that we receive is indeed a forgiveness that has already been won for us by Christ and is already ours by faith, even before we make confession of specific sins. Our confession is not a “good work” by which we “earn” God’s forgiveness in an “incremental” way. Rather, our confession is simply our acknowledgment that we agree with God’s Word when it says that we are sinners (even after we come to faith in Christ), and that we believe God’s sure promise of forgiveness in Christ. Confession and absolution were instituted by God for our comfort and assurance, not as a means whereby we make it “possible,” through our “act of confession,” for God to forgive us.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=9707

That God is merciful and forgiving to all who call on Him is shown most especially in the coming of His Son Jesus Christ, in whom “God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them…” (2 Corinthians 5:19).** God has already forgiven you,** apart from anything that you have done. He establishes no conditions on His mercy toward you-including you having to confess your sins to others as a condition required before He will forgive you. When we know how much God loves us and think about the enormity of His forgiving grace, we can ask Him for strength and courage to go to those whom we have sinned against and ask also for their forgiveness.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=424

The critical point, however, is that because of faith in Christ everything has changed. **They stand as forgiven sinners; they are righteous in His sight **and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit through whom they do genuinely good works.

I think this is right along with what my pastors keep saying… idk I almost give up on trying to understand it.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[pablope]

How can one separate the office from the man? Looking at it from the reverse, is it fair to say that most Americans have agreat deal of respect for the office of president, but lack that same respect for the person of Richard Nixon, because of his involvement in the Watergate scandal?

Hi, Jon…I see what you are saying…for a secular office like the US President, yes, I see…but for the papacy, which is, what we catholics see as a holy office…it is quite not the same.

What the reformers were saying about the office of the papacy is outlined in “A Treatise in the Power and Primacy of the Pope”. The opening paragraphs say:

 

[pablope]

This is exactly why I am struggling with this as well. Here’s a HUGE problem for me: My pastor is the District Vice President.

Exact words from the pastors: “God no longer sees our sins,” “our sins are now hidden from God,” and “God only sees us as His perfect and forgiven children.”

I’ve really been doing tons of research on this, however, and it is in line with Lutheran theology…I’ve never heard this until just recently. It’s really upsetting and frustrating me.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Happy Easter…Juliebug…I am praying that you will find the enlightenment you are seeking this Easter…God bless…

pablope

 

[Juliebug108]

Happy Easter…Juliebug…I am praying that you will find the enlightenment you are seeking this Easter…God bless…

pablope

Oh thank you, pablope! I appreciate the prayers! Happy Easter to you as well :hug1:

Peace and blessings,
Julie