What's the ONE Catholic Doctrine that you disagree with most?

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You have not provided any criteria by which you judge what scripture means.

If you want an answer, you need to be specific and exact in what you are asking for and in what exactly you will accept as truth.
Please; post a list of scriptures that you believe support purgatory. After I have examined the list I will respond. At this point we can start debating.
You are trying to debate what might be said before anything is said.
 
Please; post a list of scriptures that you believe support purgatory. After I have examined the list I will respond. At this point we can start debating.
You are trying to debate what might be said before anything is said.
Did you miss post #257?
 
Please; post a list of scriptures that you believe support purgatory. After I have examined the list I will respond. At this point we can start debating.
You are trying to debate what might be said before anything is said.
I believe we all just want to know the rules.
What exactly you will accept or reject has an influence on what exactly will be brought forth as evidence.
 
Please; post a list of scriptures that you believe support purgatory. After I have examined the list I will respond. At this point we can start debating.
You are trying to debate what might be said before anything is said.
Perhaps this will help?

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

**Heb. 2: 10 **For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

**1 Cor. 3: 13-14 **“each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2nd. Cor. 7:1 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God

**Eph. 1: 4-8 ** “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

Heb. 10:26-27 For if we sin deliberately AFTER receiving the knowledge of the truth, there NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE for sins, but a FEARFUL PROSPECT of judgment, and a FURY OF FIRE which will CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES

**2 Thess. 1:8 **“inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,”

**Heb. 6: 1-8 **…For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. In a most specific way this applies to fallen away Catholics] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the stuff around it for context). The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man’s works.

**The Origins of the Doctrine of Purgatory
**

In additions to Holy Scripture, there are Apocryphal books which were left out of Holy Canon as well as Lost Books of the Bible. It is the Apocryphal book entitled The Maccabees that contains the integral beginnings of the doctrine of purgatory. In an obscure passage, the narrator states that it is a good thing to pray for the dead. In these few word lie the complex and fascinating origins of the doctrine of Purgatory. [2Mac 12:39-45] which you can find here:

www.drbo.org/

What Is the Doctrine of Purgatory?

Purgatory is the intermediate state between heaven and hell where those of the dead who have not sinned greatly enough to warrant hell, but have not yet purified themselves enough in goodness to enter into heaven, go to prepare and purify themselves of sin. According to The Birth of Purgatory by Jacque Le Goff, Purgatory is “an intermediary world” in which some of the dead are subjected to a trial that could be shortened by prayers and other spiritual assistance of those still living. According to The Divine Crucible of Purgatory by Mother Mary of St. Austin, there are several points that are absolutely essential in the understanding of purgatory

Why Is Purgatory so Important?
Purgatory holds such importance for humanity because it presents a third option to heaven (total holiness) and hell (total evil) – and offers a different view into the mind of God and how He works to perfect the souls of man through this intermediate world. Perhaps purgatory is best represented by TheDivine Comedy of Dante, wherein the poet Virgil takes an imaginary journey into the Inferno (Hell), Paradisio (Heaven) and Purgatorio (Purgatory). By so doing, Virgil meets those along the path who have warranted various destinies and thereby shows us our own destiny as we identify ourselves along the way.

Hope this helps you

GB

Patrick
 
I believe we all just want to know the rules.
What exactly you will accept or reject has an influence on what exactly will be brought forth as evidence.
Rule: Use the bible (NAB).
Objective: Provide evidence for purgatory.

(this will be my last post until Monday)
 
Rule: Use the bible (NAB).
Objective: Provide evidence for purgatory.

(this will be my last post until Monday)
Additonal rule clarification:

How will the Bible communicate what is Biblical and what is not?

And where is the criteria to determine what is Biblical and what is not?
 
Rule: Use the bible (NAB).
Objective: Provide evidence for purgatory. (this will be my last post until Monday)
I use the KJV from Bible Gateway as it is public domain. There is no NAB but a NABRE on Bible Gateway. I have posted Mt 5:25-26, Lk12:58-59 and 1Cor3:12-18 I see no change of meaning using KJV or the NBA. If you wish to use the NBA then post the above scriptures from that version. I will use the public domain KJV.
 
Maybe Non-Catholic Christians not being able to receive the Eucharist.

The Immaculate Conception I struggle with a bit.
Immaculate Conception
**[1] ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/the-immaculate-conception-8-things-to-know-and-share-.-

[2] catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/why-catholics-believe-in-the-immaculate-conception.html

[3] catholic.com/qa/how-do-we-explain-the-necessity-of-marys-immaculate-conception**

Protestants and Catholic Holy communion is a bit easier to explain:

Jn 6: 47-58
Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. . If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

1st Cor. 11:23-30
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the New Testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

**

A right understanding of our beliefs and practices finds a multitude of misunderstandings within the Protestant communion. Some claim to accept Catholic Teaching which is: [our Catechism]

1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”
Thinking that they too, because of their desire that it be true; DO HAVE the Real Presence of Jesus in their Holy Communion services.

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”

However such is an impossibility because ALL Protestants lost [if they even had it?]; the ESSENTIAL Direct Apostolic Succession that is required.

A second, and larger group simply deny Christ Real Presence on a lack of Faith [What GOD can’t do this?]; and choosing instead to believe a “spiritual communion”, or a symbolic presence; BUT NOT the factual Real Presence.

Catholic belief is based on:

The Bible [5 different authors + Jesus Himself Testify to it]

Sacred Tradition:

Acts 2:42
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication ofthe breaking of bread, and in prayers.

1 Cor. 10:16
The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood ofChrist? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
CONSEQUENCES OF WRONG & UNBELIEF

To receive the actual Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus “unworthily” Paul tells us is to desire {spiritual”} death.

To not believe in the Real Presence, despite

Mt 26:
Mk 14:
Lk 22:
Jn 6
1st Cor 11


And GOD Himself. Might be the one unforgiveable sin [denial of God]…What GOD can’t do this

[1] churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/

[2] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ

[3] therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

So Catholics are not asking others to be “US”; no we just desire them to believe GOD; God’s miracles and the bible they claim to adhere too.
So I hope this helps you?

GB

Patrick**
 
I use the KJV from Bible Gateway as it is public domain. There is no NAB but a NABRE on Bible Gateway. I have posted Mt 5:25-26, Lk12:58-59 and 1Cor3:12-18 I see no change of meaning using KJV or the NBA. If you wish to use the NBA then post the above scriptures from that version. I will use the public domain KJV.
Friend, here are two Catholic Bibles you can use

[1] www.http://drbo.org/

[2] quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

& here is a good bible comparison site:

[3]Bible: Revised Standard Version

GBY
 
What’s the ONE Catholic Doctrine that you disagree with most?
Off the top of my head, having the Church run for 2,000 years exclusively by self appointed leaders who are all celibate men seems one considerable source of problems. As example, consider the doctrine “we’re adamantly against abortion!!!, and contraception too”. Only celibate old men could come up with credibility killers like that one.
 
Friend, here are two Catholic Bibles you can use

[1] www.http://drbo.org/

[2] quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

& here is a good bible comparison site:

[3]Bible: Revised Standard Version

GBY
Thanks PJM. Actually both of those are on bible gateway. The DRB is also public domain the RSV has copy right restriction, which I don’t want to be concerned with. Another reason I use the KJV is most Protestants hold it in high regard thereby avoiding going off topic concerning the version.
 
[Mt5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art **in the way
with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into Prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, Till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, **as thou art in the way give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into Prison. 59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.]

Please start a different line as purgatory is off topic.

Mt 5:25 & Lk 12:58 This “Prison” would have been “sheol”. Jesus paid the price for all that were there and set them free.

Cor3:12-15 The “day” mentioned in verse 13 is the day of judgment at the end of time.

“Please start a different line as purgatory is off topic”
Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine as mentioned in the topic line.**
 
Thanks PJM. Actually both of those are on bible gateway. The DRB is also public domain the RSV has copy right restriction, which I don’t want to be concerned with. Another reason I use the KJV is most Protestants hold it in high regard thereby avoiding going off topic concerning the version.
TRUE,

I recently published a book: catholicandchristianbypatrickmiron.com/

With a GREAT many bible quotes and often from the RSV which gave approval on their web site.👍

GBY

Patrick
 
Perhaps this will help?

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

**Heb. 2: 10 **For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

**1 Cor. 3: 13-14 **“each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2nd. Cor. 7:1 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God

**Eph. 1: 4-8 ** “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

Heb. 10:26-27 For if we sin deliberately AFTER receiving the knowledge of the truth, there NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE for sins, but a FEARFUL PROSPECT of judgment, and a FURY OF FIRE which will CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES

**2 Thess. 1:8 **“inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,”

**Heb. 6: 1-8 **…For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. In a most specific way this applies to fallen away Catholics] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the stuff around it for context). The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man’s works.

**The Origins of the Doctrine of Purgatory
**

In additions to Holy Scripture, there are Apocryphal books which were left out of Holy Canon as well as Lost Books of the Bible. It is the Apocryphal book entitled The Maccabees that contains the integral beginnings of the doctrine of purgatory. In an obscure passage, the narrator states that it is a good thing to pray for the dead. In these few word lie the complex and fascinating origins of the doctrine of Purgatory. [2Mac 12:39-45] which you can find here:

www.drbo.org/

What Is the Doctrine of Purgatory?

Purgatory is the intermediate state between heaven and hell where those of the dead who have not sinned greatly enough to warrant hell, but have not yet purified themselves enough in goodness to enter into heaven, go to prepare and purify themselves of sin. According to The Birth of Purgatory by Jacque Le Goff, Purgatory is “an intermediary world” in which some of the dead are subjected to a trial that could be shortened by prayers and other spiritual assistance of those still living. According to The Divine Crucible of Purgatory by Mother Mary of St. Austin, there are several points that are absolutely essential in the understanding of purgatory

Why Is Purgatory so Important?
Purgatory holds such importance for humanity because it presents a third option to heaven (total holiness) and hell (total evil) – and offers a different view into the mind of God and how He works to perfect the souls of man through this intermediate world. Perhaps purgatory is best represented by TheDivine Comedy of Dante, wherein the poet Virgil takes an imaginary journey into the Inferno (Hell), Paradisio (Heaven) and Purgatorio (Purgatory). By so doing, Virgil meets those along the path who have warranted various destinies and thereby shows us our own destiny as we identify ourselves along the way.

Hope this helps you

GB

Patrick
1Cor 3:13-14 and Mr 5:26 were addressed in post 271

Lev 22:21 states that the sacrifice must be perfect. We have a perfect sacrifice. Jesus

Rev 21:27 speaks of those who will enter New Jerusalem.

Mt. 5:48 see Phil 3:15, 2 Tim 3:17, Heb 13:21 & 1 Peter 5:10

2 Cor 7:1 see 1 John 1:7 and Rev 1:5

The other verses have little to do with purgatory.

2 Mac 12:39-45 is clear Judas offered prayers and offerings because of his belief in the resurrection not purgatory.
 
1Cor 3:13-14 and Mr 5:26 were addressed in post 271

Lev 22:21 states that the sacrifice must be perfect. We have a perfect sacrifice. Jesus

Rev 21:27 speaks of those who will enter New Jerusalem.

Mt. 5:48 see Phil 3:15, 2 Tim 3:17, Heb 13:21 & 1 Peter 5:10

2 Cor 7:1 see 1 John 1:7 and Rev 1:5

The other verses have little to do with purgatory.

2 Mac 12:39-45 is clear Judas offered prayers and offerings because of his belief in the resurrection not purgatory.
I have started a new line on the apologetic form the following is the link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1042843
 
I agree that it is not good for a person, and this is not to place a schism anywhere in my life. That being said, a dying man I knew gave a “thumbs up” to medical use of marijuana, as it strengthened his appetite (he was virtually a skeleton) and eased his pain slightly. However, this was recreational medical use as it was not legal (obtained the marijuana from street methods). I cannot un-see what I saw, the truth is it might have benefited a dying man. I also know that in excess of 10 grams every 2 weeks can make you stupid. So, they both make interesting points.
 
Although it’s not dogma, the title to our lady as “co-redemptrix” really grinds my gears. It is the historical truth that the CC was built on that Christ is our redeemer. More importantly, the council of Trent infallibly declared:

“Christ alone is our redeemer. Should anyone teach or maintain differently let him be anathema.”

It’s just another one of those teachings that give fundamentalists a handle on attacking us.
Hope the following helps;

With Mary’s yes to God she co=with Christ redeems. Her yes makes possible redemption for all people. Our co-redeeming and intercession touches maybe one or two or even thousands depending on the person and the grace God gives to our co-redeeming acts. If we do nothing, with our gift of grace, we may lose our own soul as the man who didn’t even get interest on the talent given him by the Lord, Mt 25:24-30.

This does not take away from Christ the one redeemer. Christ shares his redeeming work and all he has and is with his people. He shares his priesthood, kingship and prophet with all his people. Christ makes us a royal priesthood, kings and prophets sending us to be witnesses thereby co=with Christ redeemers, mediators and advocates.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body that is the church

Just as Paul we too uniting with Christ our sufferings, joys, prayers and works become co-redeemers with Christ. Christ’s afflictions lack nothing but he wants us to share in his Priestly work, which is our priestly duty.]

[Rm15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, **acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.] YLT

1COR3:9 For we are labourers together with God ye are God’s husbandry ye are God’s building

3JN1:8 We therefore ought to receive such that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.

Jms 5:19 Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him 20 Let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 
Mt 5:25 & Lk 12:58 This “Prison” would have been “sheol”. Jesus paid the price for all that were there and set them free.

Cor3:12-15 The “day” mentioned in verse 13 is the day of judgment at the end of time.

“Please start a different line as purgatory is off topic”
Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine as mentioned in the topic line.
Sheol
[shee-ohl]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun, (in Hebrew theology)
1.
the abode of the dead or of departed spirits.
2.
(lowercase) hell.

Exactly what is meant by “lower case hell” remains a mystery to me.

I tried doing a STRONG’S Greek /Hebrew search on the TERM and came up blank.

MY [me personally here] understanding

** As a FYI; here is what further investigation revealed.**

The term “sheol” does not appear in the Douay bible; rather it is accounted as “hell”

The RSV has replaced the term “hell” with the term “sheol”

**STRONG’S Hebrew / Greek **concordance does not define “shoel”

But defines “hell” as follows

Douay bible
Duet 32:22 “ [22] A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains”

**Haydock’s Commentary Duet 32:22 **
Ver. 22. A fire. He alludes to the destruction of Sodom, (Calmet) which may be considered as a figure of that which will overtake the whole world at the last day, and excruciate both the souls and the bodies of the reprobate in the flames of hell. (Haydock) — Fire also denotes war, the horrors of which overwhelmed the Jews both at the first and the last sieges of Jerusalem. (Calmet)

RSV bible
Deut.32: [22] For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol,
devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
STRONGS Hebrew /Greek concordance

HEBREW [hell] Result of search for “hell”:

7585 sh’owl sheh-ole’ or shol {sheh-ole’}; from 7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:–grave, hell, pit.

**GREEK **[hell] Result of search for “hell”:
  1. haides hah’-dace from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:–grave, hell.
  2. tartaroo tar-tar-o’-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:–cast down to hell.
So does the change of terms from Douay’s “hell” verses the RSV’s “shoel” change the meaning of the text?

GBY

The FACT that "hell: is lower or upeer case did not change the Hebrew /Greek definations:shrug:
 
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