What's the ONE Catholic Doctrine that you disagree with most?

[Della]

I used to feel that way, too. However, when I had the privilege of being in the presence of a first class relic of St. Bernadette (who was instrumental in my being reconciled to the Church, so the connection is personal), I sensed God’s love and mercy for me in a profound way. I dare say others have had the same sort of experience–not that that should determine what can/can’t be done with Christian remains, but it is telling, I think.

Since we believe in the resurrection of the body, no matter what happens to it after death, relics are not odd in that light. As I understand it, the recent prohibition is against deliberately scattering the ashes of a Christian person on unconsecrated ground or in the sea, etc., yes? So, it’s not that body parts have been distributed or even that the body has been destroyed by fire, but it’s the deliberate disposal of the body in unhallowed ground or keeping them on the mantel as if one were keeping a beloved pet. Distributing relics for the purpose of veneration and lifting one’s soul to God in a sacred place is a good thing, yes?

 

[Tommy999]

What you are talking about is almsgiving more than indulgences. Indulgences usually consist of prayers, confession and attending Mass. There are different kinds of indulgences with different criteria, but they are not how we pay to get out of our sins so we can go to heaven. Indulgences help us make up for the damage our sins have done, temporally and spiritually. They aren’t “get out of hell free cards.”

Almsgiving may include donations to the Church, generally by giving to one’s own parish/diocese, but they are also giving to the poor, housing the homeless, feeding the hungry, etc. Giving alms is very much a NT principle: quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=alms&restrict=New+Testament&size=First+100.

I hope that helps you. :tiphat:

Hi Della,
Thanks for the reply. You always help.

By the way, I have no problem with almsgiving and never have. Since my earlier days as a Christian, I have always given at least 10% to God’s work, much of it to my local church as well as to other special ministries and causes. My wife is also fond of paying for military service members’ meals at local restaurants on occasion. I jokingly told her that I’m glad we don’t live near a military base or else we’d be living under a bridge right now.

When it comes to indulgences, didn’t it involve money at some point along the way? I thought that was one of Luther’s biggest axes to grind – the way indulgences were handled, wasn’t it? Sorry if my history is a little fuzzy.

Perhaps someone can help clarify that part for me.

 

[Della]

Hi Della,
Thanks for the reply. You always help.

By the way, I have no problem with almsgiving and never have. Since my earlier days as a Christian, I have always given at least 10% to God’s work, much of it to my local church as well as to other special ministries and causes. My wife is also fond of paying for service members’ meals at local restaurants on occasion. I jokingly told her that I’m glad we don’t live near a military base or else we’d be living under a bridge right now.

That’s a great way to thank our military people. Thank you and your wife for doing it.

When it comes to indulgences, didn’t it involve money at some point along the way? I thought that was one of Luther’s biggest axes to grind – the way indulgences were handled, wasn’t it? Sorry if my history is a little fuzzy.

Perhaps someone can help clarify that part for me.

The teaching was that making a donation to the Church/almsgiving would help a soul, one’s own or another’s, suffering in purgatory. (Suffering here meaning undergoing the pains of temporal punishment for sins not confessed to God and purifying the soul so it can have the joy of the Beatific Vision of God.) This still applies, but no one is allowed to pass out such indulgences for money anymore, since it can be confused with buying heaven, which it isn’t.

Donations/almsgiving are a form of penance which, under certain criteria, can gain an indulgence. The Church never taught that one could pay one’s way out of purgatory or hell. Indulgences are graces from God by which we cooperate with God to draw us away from sin and closer to him. There were unscrupulous people who were selling indulgences, which was strictly forbidden by Church law.

You know human nature, though. If there’s a way people can get money they will do it, no matter who tells them it’s illegal or sinful. Luther saw this and rightfully objected to it. As I recall he didn’t think the bishops were doing enough to stop the practice, but others would have better information about that than I do.

If I’ve explained all this badly or wrongly, I hope to be corrected.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Della,
Thanks for the reply. You always help.

By the way, I have no problem with almsgiving and never have. Since my earlier days as a Christian, I have always given at least 10% to God’s work, much of it to my local church as well as to other special ministries and causes. My wife is also fond of paying for military service members’ meals at local restaurants on occasion. I jokingly told her that I’m glad we don’t live near a military base or else we’d be living under a bridge right now.

When it comes to indulgences, didn’t it involve money at some point along the way? I thought that was one of Luther’s biggest axes to grind – the way indulgences were handled, wasn’t it? Sorry if my history is a little fuzzy.

Perhaps someone can help clarify that part for me.

Essentially, “When the coin in the coffer clings, the soul to heaven springs” was never official teaching.

You might compare with this: “salvation by faith alone” is official Lutheran teaching, but certain interpretations of it that give people a kind of Free Pass to sin are not official Lutheran teaching.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi Della,
Thanks for the reply. You always help.

By the way, I have no problem with almsgiving and never have. Since my earlier days as a Christian, I have always given at least 10% to God’s work, much of it to my local church as well as to other special ministries and causes. My wife is also fond of paying for military service members’ meals at local restaurants on occasion. I jokingly told her that I’m glad we don’t live near a military base or else we’d be living under a bridge right now.

When it comes to indulgences, didn’t it involve money at some point along the way? I thought that was one of Luther’s biggest axes to grind – the way indulgences were handled, wasn’t it? Sorry if my history is a little fuzzy.

Perhaps someone can help clarify that part for me.

Hi Tommy

Well, Tetzel, the guy Luther most beefed with, referred to them as alms in his sermons. Even though I think he really pushed things too far in his personal practices.

If a person is in purgation then he/she is already forgiven. But there is temporal damage that exists and needs reparation. If i stab someone i can ask and receive forgiveness but they are still left with a ugly scar. If I break their window, i can ask and receive forgiveness but there is still the issue of the shattered window.

My personal opinion is that this is why Jesus stressed making peace with everyone before you pass. (Matt 5:21-25) . Because everything will taken into account on judgment day (Matt 12:36) and everything needs to be cleaned up will be, and it wont be fun. (1 Cor 3:15) That’s why he stressed perfection. (Matthew 5:48) For the state of our own eternal soul.

But i get that for the SS practicing Christian, this, at least on the surface, looks like the selling of God’s grace. W/O proper understanding it can be abused and spiral out of control. The key points to remember are keys (Matt 16:19) and that anything that occurs in purgation it’s God actually doing it as he is described as fire over and over again in the scriptures. He is the refiner, we are just asking for his love and mercy. And we trust that he makes good on His promises as we saw with the Jews, He never breaks His end of the covenant.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Essentially, “When the coin in the coffer clings, the soul to heaven springs” was never official teaching.

You might compare with this: “salvation by faith alone” is official Lutheran teaching, but certain interpretations of it that give people a kind of Free Pass to sin are not official Lutheran teaching.

Right.

I guess Tetzel was well intended but was in error with the message he was sending.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all for your clarifications on indulgences. Like other things in life, it sounds like this was abused by some individuals in the past, but it is not and never was Church teaching to do this, if I understand correctly.

 

[Della]

Thanks to all for your clarifications on indulgences. Like other things in life, it sounds like this was abused by some individuals in the past, but it is not and never was Church teaching to do this, if I understand correctly.

Yes. Monies weren’t /aren’t given as payments but as alms–a corporal work of mercy that has spiritual and eternal benefits.

 

[po18guy]

Again, see Augustine, de magistro. There is only one teacher, and it’s neither the Pope nor the Bishops.

1. The Pope is a Bishop - you’ve been here long enough…
2. Why on earth consult Augustine, since you say yourself that God is the only teacher?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Not a doctrine, just the practice of referring to Rome for things that can be handled outside of Rome - canonizations, beatifications, married deacons/priests for Easterners, etc

 

[Della]

Not a doctrine, just the practice of referring to Rome for things that can be handled outside of Rome - canonizations, beatifications, married deacons/priests for Easterners, etc

Of course, these aren’t doctrinal issues, only jurisdictional, yes?

 

[Porknpie]

The claim that human beings can teach infallibly.

Hi Dave.

You do acknowledge that they do so, at times, led by the Holy Spirit to all truth?

How many books in the NT?

This is an example of trusting in their infallible teaching.

A claim first made by Catholic Bishops…

 

[Porknpie]

confession to a priest only for the forgiveness of sins. The Bible says to confess one to another but I don’t recall it says anywhere that it must be to a priest. We know that God forgives us - but for some reason we are told a priest is the only one who can reassure us of this…The forgiveness of sins depend on us forgiving others (see the Lord’s prayer). A priest may give absolution but I have NEVER had one ask me during a confession if I have forgiven those who sin against me… “…and forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US…” . We are to confess one to another but it does not say to do this for the forgiveness of sins, while the lord’s prayer is very clear on how our sins are forgiven… got a little off track there but got my thoughts out

Karen,

The priest is there to hear your confession and to give you absolution. He may suggest ways of avoiding sins you are confessing. He’s not examining you for sins that you have not confessed (not forgiving another).

That’s why no priest has ever asked you. And I would be surprised that they would unless it dealt in some way with your specific confession.

 

[Porknpie]

Hi Della,
Thanks for the reply. You always help.

By the way, I have no problem with almsgiving and never have. Since my earlier days as a Christian, I have always given at least 10% to God’s work, much of it to my local church as well as to other special ministries and causes. My wife is also fond of paying for military service members’ meals at local restaurants on occasion. I jokingly told her that I’m glad we don’t live near a military base or else we’d be living under a bridge right now.

When it comes to indulgences, didn’t it involve money at some point along the way? I thought that was one of Luther’s biggest axes to grind – the way indulgences were handled, wasn’t it? Sorry if my history is a little fuzzy.

Perhaps someone can help clarify that part for me.

Also Tommy, the 16th c “selling” of indulgences, if it did in fact happen in Germany (another debated point), reflected the sinfulness of man, and was not the teaching of the Church itself. It was neither a common practice, nor doctrine. My personal opinion is the lack of easy global communications hindered Father Luther from understanding this.

 

[Porknpie]

1. The Pope is a Bishop - you’ve been here long enough…
2. Why on earth consult Augustine, since you say yourself that God is the only teacher?

I DO recommend David read Augustine’s tract on Grace and Free Will.

ALL Christians need to.

And compare what they profess to what St Augustine professed.

And its free right here

 

[KarenAnne]

Karen,

The priest is there to hear your confession and to give you absolution. He may suggest ways of avoiding sins you are confessing. He’s not examining you for sins that you have not confessed (not forgiving another).

That’s why no priest has ever asked you. And I would be surprised that they would unless it dealt in some way with your specific confession.

My point was that forgiving others is a condition of being forgiven ourselves so how can the priest “absolve” us unless they inquire as to whether or not we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us… The priest can tell us that we are forgiven and “absolved of our sins” but they truly can’t know that unless they know we have forgiven others…

 

[Peebo]

My point was that forgiving others is a condition of being forgiven ourselves so how can the priest “absolve” us unless they inquire as to whether or not we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us… The priest can tell us that we are forgiven and “absolved of our sins” but they truly can’t know that unless they know we have forgiven others…

I think that the priest can absolve us from the sins we are confessing…not the ones we are not…I have read where St.Padre Pio refused to hear confession at times from some people because he knew that they were not truly repentant in confessing all there sins…one of the many spiritual gifts he possessed.

 

[Memaw]

That the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.

How old is your denomination? Who started it? Does it go clear back to the time of Jesus Christ and can you historically prove that?? Study History, read the Early Church Fathers and the Acts of the Apostles very carefully and the the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Try to leave all predigests behind while reading. Please, please don’t believe all the false stories about the Catholic Church. I have been a Catholic all my life, (80 years) and none of them are TRUE!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[alwayswill]

What’s the ONE Catholic Doctrine that you disagree with most?

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

…
No Pope, College of Bishops, or Ordinary Magisterium teaches something ‘new’.

The Church proclaims Truth, and Truth is infallible.

Can’t you point me to the Apostolic teaching that proclaimed the following?
“it is absolutely necessary
for salvation
that** every human creature**
be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

Or from Genesis 3 to the end of time in the Book of Revelation: can you show that it was believed and taught that
“it is absolutely necessary
for salvation
that** every human creature**
be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

 

[Porknpie]

My point was that forgiving others is a condition of being forgiven ourselves so how can the priest “absolve” us unless they inquire as to whether or not we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us… The priest can tell us that we are forgiven and “absolved of our sins” but they truly can’t know that unless they know we have forgiven others…

Karen, do you go through an examination of conscious when you go to confession? The priest relies on your doing so. Sometimes when I only confess that “one” sin, he’ll ask if there is anything else. So no, they don’t “truly” know. They rely on the honesty and thoroughness of the penitent to confess what they are knowledgeable of that is serious sin (venial is ok too). Keep in mind, God already knows all.

An example is here.