What's the ONE Catholic Doctrine that you disagree with most?

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Thanks for sharing the Christian perspective PJM, let’s not get too far afield from monotheism though 😛 For what it’s worth, polytheist thinkers have always been staunch defenders of our immortality.

So, the argument I gave was that there is no such thing as monotheism. See, monotheism is supposed to be a denial of polytheism, but there’s no way for it to do this: it either treats a God like something that has a nature or essence, in which case it’s not talking about what is truly divine; or it says little more than that there is only one of a particular deity, which is something polytheists can agree with. In either case, “monotheism” is not an alternative to polytheism.

As such, arguments for “God” are really just arguments for a God. Consider the following assertion you made:

Suppose that this assertion is true. All it would mean is that only one God caused the universe, but it wouldn’t mean that only one God exists. So, it would not show that monotheism is true, only that a God exists, and caused the universe – which a polytheist could in theory agree with
So WHAt am I missing here? Id Ouer GOD is the creator of the “all” which we termed here the universe, and the force that sustains same; what is the origin of the other gods?.
As it is, the assertion assumes several things about how a multitude of Gods would relate to one another that polytheist thinkers would reject as well. But, I don’t want to wade us into henadicity or polycentricity here.
So, to keep things simple and focused, in light of the argument I’ve given, do you agree that monotheism isn’t really an alternative to polytheism, so that arguments for “God” are really just arguments for a God? If not, which part of the argument do you reject?
I disagree:)

Our GOD is the source of every [GOOD] thing: PERIOD

So what is the origin [and for that matter the need] for multiple gods?

GBY
 
So WHAt am I missing here? Id Ouer GOD is the creator of the “all” which we termed here the universe, and the force that sustains same; what is the origin of the other gods?.
If the God you believe in (say “YHWH”) did not have an origin, why would you expect any other God to? Part of being divine is transcending the world. Moreover, even if there were a distinction between a “creator God” and “created gods”, there would still be many deities, which is incompatible with monotheism.

While this is an aside to discussing “monotheism”, I think it’s important to mention that according to polytheist thinkers, each God causes all things, only in its own way. For example, Poseidon is said by these thinkers to cause all things insofar as they are mutable, where as Zeus is said to cause all things insofar as they exist substantially, and so forth.

So far, I haven’t seen an argument for monotheism, or a response to my objection to monotheism. What do you think?
 
I guess I’m not sure what you mean by subjectivist, but I don’t know of any sense in which I am.
In the philosophical sense. It includes the idea that there is no objective truth, but rather knowledge, reality, and the like is limited and formed by individual experience. So, for example, ethical subjectivism would argue that there are no moral absolutes.

What I’m asking can be flipped if you like; do you believe in objective truth?
 
Are you a subjectivist as well as a pagan?
I guess I’m not sure what you mean by subjectivist, but I don’t know of any sense in which I am.
For folks like me who have to look things up:
Subjectivism is the doctrine that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth. In other words, subjectivism is the philosophical tenet that “our own mental activity is the only unquestionable fact of our experience”.
In other words, “I think; therefore, I am – and that’s all that matters.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivism
 
In the philosophical sense. It includes the idea that there is no objective truth, but rather knowledge, reality, and the like is limited and formed by individual experience. So, for example, ethical subjectivism would argue that there are no moral absolutes.

What I’m asking can be flipped if you like; do you believe in objective truth?
Sure, just didn’t know which form of subjectivism you had in mind, but like I said, I don’t know of any that I subscribe to. So, I believe in objective morality, reality, truth and so forth.
 
Sure, just didn’t know which form of subjectivism you had in mind, but like I said, I don’t know of any that I subscribe to. So, I believe in objective morality, reality, truth and so forth.
OK, in light of that, my guess is that you believe in the fact that words have meaning that we can generally agree on? If so;

Monotheism - the doctrine or belief that there is only one God

Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god

By sheer definition there is indeed such a thing as Monotheism. There is indeed a doctrine or belief that there is only one God. That’s an objective fact. I’m a Monotheist; I believe there is only one God. Practicing Jews are Monotheists. Muslims are Monotheists. Now, you disagree with Monotheism, but that doesn’t make Monotheism cease to exist.
 
AS STATED NOT TRUE:o

Only Precisely declared DOGMATIC pronouncement meet you’re statement. AND also Catholic Magisterium teachings of Faith and Morals:thumbsup:

GBY

PLease send me a private message if you desire more detials

GBY

Patrick
No, the Church of Rome cannot err. Period. It never has. And never will. People cite Vatican I as if it limits the scope of Papal Infallibility. On the contrary, Vatican I defines as a dogma that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra. In ages past, going back to the beginning of the church, it was understood and acknowledged by all that the Church of Rome cannot err.

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare— a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics— to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access."

Saint Cyprian of Carthage. c. AD 250. To cite just one of many examples from the ancient church.

newadvent.org/fathers/050654.htm
 
OK, in light of that, my guess is that you believe in the fact that words have meaning that we can generally agree on? If so;

Monotheism - the doctrine or belief that there is only one God

Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god

By sheer definition there is indeed such a thing as Monotheism. There is indeed a doctrine or belief that there is only one God. That’s an objective fact. I’m a Monotheist; I believe there is only one God. Practicing Jews are Monotheists. Muslims are Monotheists. Now, you disagree with Monotheism, but that doesn’t make Monotheism cease to exist.
I don’t simply disagree with monotheism; it’s not something that I’d say is false: I’m saying there is no such thing as monotheism to disagree with, or to regard as false.

We are told that monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is only one God. Monotheism is supposed to be a form of theism that opposes polytheism; which is why you’ve posted a definition of monotheism right next to a definition of polytheism, and capitalized “God” in one and not the other.

But, what does the definition of monotheism amount to, and does it oppose polytheism? Well, the definition of monotheism says there is only one of something. Only one of what? Something it calls “God.” So, it treats “God” like a kind of being that has only one member. Problem is, we know that part of being divine involves transcending all categories or kinds of being. As such, “monotheism” is using the term “God” to refer to something that isn’t truly divine because it doesn’t transcend all categories or kinds of being.

So, that’s what the definition of monotheism amounts to. Does it oppose polytheism? No, not at all: while polytheism is talking about a multitude of Gods, monotheism is talking about something that isn’t a God because it doesn’t transcend all categories or kinds of being.

As such, “monotheism” doesn’t exist as a form of theism which opposes polytheism: it exists only as a non-theistic position about something it mislabels “God.”
 
I don’t simply disagree with monotheism; it’s not something that I’d say is false: I’m saying there is no such thing as monotheism to disagree with, or to regard as false.

We are told that monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is only one God. Monotheism is supposed to be a form of theism that opposes polytheism; which is why you’ve posted a definition of monotheism right next to a definition of polytheism, and capitalized “God” in one and not the other.

But, what does the definition of monotheism amount to, and does it oppose polytheism? Well, the definition of monotheism says there is only one of something. Only one of what? Something it calls “God.” So, it treats “God” like a kind of being that has only one member. Problem is, we know that part of being divine involves transcending all categories or kinds of being. As such, “monotheism” is using the term “God” to refer to something that isn’t truly divine because it doesn’t transcend all categories or kinds of being.

So, that’s what the definition of monotheism amounts to. Does it oppose polytheism? No, not at all: while polytheism is talking about a multitude of Gods, monotheism is talking about something that isn’t a God because it doesn’t transcend all categories or kinds of being.

As such, “monotheism” doesn’t exist as a form of theism which opposes polytheism: it exists only as a non-theistic position about something it mislabels “God.”
Sounds like you are dependent on the failure of the language to adequately describe God rather than what God actually is.
 
Before Vatican I, there was no notion of *ex cathedra * infallibility as such. I don’t want to argue papal primacy in all questions moral, theological, dogmatic and of discipline.
However, it’s obvious how primacy is very different from infallibility - and be it only in very specific circumstances. Catholic apologetics need to perform a lot of mental gymnastics if they are to show how papal infallibility is something which the church “always believed”. Especially considering early church history.
We need it as much as a declaration of the Sancta Dei Genetrix as “co-redemptrix” - not at all.
Sorry if I hurt any feelings.
 
Before Vatican I, there was no notion of *ex cathedra * infallibility as such. I don’t want to argue papal primacy in all questions moral, theological, dogmatic and of discipline.
However, it’s obvious how primacy is very different from infallibility - and be it only in very specific circumstances. Catholic apologetics need to perform a lot of mental gymnastics if they are to show how papal infallibility is something which the church “always believed”. Especially considering early church history.
We need it as much as a declaration of the Sancta Dei Genetrix as “co-redemptrix” - not at all.
Sorry if I hurt any feelings.
Saint Irenaeus wrote that it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with the Church of Rome, citing apostolic succession from Peter and Paul. He didn’t include any sort of warning, “But it’s possible they might screw it up one day.”

I already quoted Saint Cyprian who said faithlessness (which he equates with heresy) could have no access to the Church of Rome.

Saint Jerome held Rome in even higher regard: “For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.” newadvent.org/fathers/3001015.htm

Pope Damasus I wrote, “The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.”

The Edict of Thessalonica required all the empire to submit to “that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter.”

At the Council of Ephesus, it was proclaimed, “There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.”

The Formula of Hormisdas declared, " For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” [Matthew 16:18], should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied." And again, “And so I hope I may deserve to be associated with you in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides.”

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122063/The%20Formula%20of%20Pope%20St%20Hormisd

Pope Agatho I wrote to the Sixth Ecumenical Council that the Church of Rome, “has never erred from the path of the apostolic tradition, nor has she been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations, but from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ, and remains undefiled unto the end, according to the divine promise of the Lord and Saviour himself, which he uttered in the holy Gospels to the prince of his disciples: saying, Peter, Peter, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for you, that (your) faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3813.htm

As late as the Seventh Ecumenical Council, Romans 1:8, “Your faith has gone forth into all the world.” was quoted by the Patriarch of Constantinople as a continuing witness to the Church of Rome, stating, “It is necessary to follow out this witness, and he that would contradict it is without good sense.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3819.htm
 
@PluniaZ: Thanks for taking the time to put all of this together. I am not quite sure: Is this supposed to prove how the concept of papal infallibility existed early in the church?
 
@PluniaZ: Thanks for taking the time to put all of this together. I am not quite sure: Is this supposed to prove how the concept of papal infallibility existed early in the church?
It shows that it was universally taught in the first millennium, without disagreement, that the entire Church could always trust the Church of Rome to correctly teach the faith that was once for all handed down by the Apostles. In substance, that is saying the same thing as Vatican I regarding papal infallibility (and arguably it is saying more).
 
Now, “always trust to correctly teach the faith” sounds a lot different from infallible
Infallibility means no error whatsoever no matter how small possible. In the end, the bishop of Rome is human, vicar of Christ or not. God gave us the gift of choice: To do his will or not. Infallibility as such would make the bishop of Rome inhuman because he is no longer *able * to be wrong. A contradiction. This sounds like the serpent’s offering.Hubris, in essence. The old “non serviam” once more.
 
Now, “always trust to correctly teach the faith” sounds a lot different from infallible
Infallibility means no error whatsoever no matter how small possible. In the end, the bishop of Rome is human, vicar of Christ or not. God gave us the gift of choice: To do his will or not. Infallibility as such would make the bishop of Rome inhuman because he is no longer *able * to be wrong. A contradiction. This sounds like the serpent’s offering.Hubris, in essence. The old “non serviam” once more.
That’s just quibbling over words. The above cites I gave show that it was universally acknowledged in the first millennium that the Church of Rome had never erred, and as Pope Agatho said, due to the promise of Jesus to Peter, never could err. Vatican I simply confirmed as a dogma what was known from the first millennium.
 
OK, in light of that, my guess is that you believe in the fact that words have meaning that we can generally agree on? If so;

Monotheism - the doctrine or belief that there is only one God

Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god

By sheer definition there is indeed such a thing as Monotheism. There is indeed a doctrine or belief that there is only one God. That’s an objective fact. I’m a Monotheist; I believe there is only one God. Practicing Jews are Monotheists. Muslims are Monotheists. Now, you disagree with Monotheism, but that doesn’t make Monotheism cease to exist.
Well you know what they say about Non-Catholics who argue with other Non-Catholics.
 
I am a Catholic but there are still a few that i fail to understand. Indulgences is one of them. I am pretty knowledgeable about Catholic theology but this one just doesn’t make any sense to me. Neither does the idea that someone who is baptized is forgiven of all temporal punishment. Someone could commit murder and then be baptized and they would go straight to heaven but a Catholic who confessed to murder would not be forgiven the temporal punishment.
 
That’s just quibbling over words. The above cites I gave show that it was universally acknowledged in the first millennium that the Church of Rome had never erred, and as Pope Agatho said, due to the promise of Jesus to Peter, never could err. Vatican I simply confirmed as a dogma what was known from the first millennium.
You repeat what you already wrote. Anyway this thread is about the ONE doctrine you disagree most. I have stated mine. What is the one you struggle most with, PluniaZ?
 
You repeat what you already wrote. Anyway this thread is about the ONE doctrine you disagree most. I have stated mine. What is the one you struggle most with, PluniaZ?
I repeat what I wrote because it’s true. The Church of Rome has never erred, and never can err, owing to the promise of Jesus Christ to Saint Peter. As the entire universal Church agreed in the Formal of Hormisdas in AD 519:
For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” [Matthew 16:18], should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied.
Following, as we have said before, the Apostolic See in all things and proclaiming all its decisions, we endorse and approve all the letters which Pope St Leo wrote concerning the Christian religion. And so I hope I may deserve to be associated with you in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides. I promise that from now on those who are separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See, will not have their names read during the sacred mysteries.
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122063/The%20Formula%20of%20Pope%20St%20Hormisd

Since “the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides” in the one communion proclaimed by the Apostolic See of Rome, I dare not disagree with any of Rome’s teachings. Rather, I follow the Apostolic See of Rome in all things and hope that I may deserve to be associated with the Holy Roman Pontiff in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims.
 
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