What's the purpose of hell?

[hansard]

Yes, but is it punishment without end, or *punishing *without end?

There’s a real difference. Eternal death, without any consciousness at all, would be eternal punishment without end (although the victim would know nothing about it). Think of it like the time before you were conceived. You didn’t exist.

Eternal suffering in some spiritual realm would be *punishing *without end, and the victim would know everything about it for all eternity.

That’s the difference. I can believe in the punishment, but not the punishing.

I simply argue that the notion of eternal punishing is contrary to the notion of a forgiving god and infinitely exceeding the nature of the crime.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, but is it punishment without end, or *punishing *without end?

There’s a real difference. Eternal death, without any consciousness at all, would be eternal punishment without end (although the victim would know nothing about it). Think of it like the time before you were conceived. You didn’t exist.

Eternal suffering in some spiritual realm would be *punishing *without end, and the victim would know everything about it for all eternity.

That’s the difference. I can believe in the punishment, but not the punishing.

I simply argue that the notion of eternal punishing is contrary to the notion of a forgiving god and infinitely exceeding the nature of the crime.

The opposite is eternity with God in the process of divinization, same argument inverted. Vice proceeds to habit in reverse. Its not God punishing, its a matter of receiving what you desire to obtain, Lucifer refused to follow. He has free-will.

The Final Judgment consists of some the greatest sermons in the Church.

whitelilyoftrinity.com/saints_quotes_suffering.html

“One day, I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end of the road without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And there numbers were so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness, and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings."
–Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, #153

“I see around me a multitude of those who, blindly persevering in error, despise the true God; but I am a Christian nevertheless, and I follow the instruction of the Apostles. If this deserves chastisement, reward it; for I am determined to suffer every torture rather then become the slave of the devil. Others may do as they please since they are …] reckless of the future life, which is to be obtained only by sufferings. Scripture tells us that “narrow is the way that leads to life” …] because it is one of affliction and of persecutions suffered for the sake of justice; but it is wide enough for those who walk upon it, because their faith and the hope of an eternal reward make it so for them. …] On the contrary, the road of vice is in reality narrow, and it leads to an eternal precipice.”
–Saint Leo of Patara

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0105.asp

In this uniquely Matthean parable, the time of judgment has arrived as the Human One comes in his glory. This scene is intimately linked with 28:16-20, where Jesus commissions his followers to make disciples of all nations (28:19), a command that this parable presumes has been fulfilled. All the nations are assembled to render account. Like Moses, who laid out before the Israelites the choice of blessing or curse (Deut 11:26), Jesus separates those “blessed by my Father“ from those “accursed.” This is not predestined; God’s invitation has gone out to all (5:45; 13:3-9), and the choice to accept or reject it rests with each. For those who accept the invitation, which is visible in their deeds, blessing and inheritance in God’s realm awaits.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As to the idea that “people choose Hell by rejecting God” (so often expressed around here)–well, I’ve seldom heard anything more ridiculous. People *choose *such a fate? Rubbish.
If Hell exists, God sends them there, actively, willingly and eternally. People are sent to hell by God’s will, not their own. Those who seek to remove God from the equation are being dishonest.

Sloppy reasoning. If you kill somebody, you sentence yourself to prison. The State is only the instrument by which prison is arranged because you chose to violate the law and took your chances at being caught.

In like manner, God provides justice by agreeing with your decision to cut yourself entirely off from His saving grace. If you don’t believe in hell, assuming you are a Catholic, how do you deal with the following admonition from Jesus?

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

Condemned to what? Heaven?

And where would you put people who died unrepentent of horrible sins?

In heaven?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I simply argue that the notion of eternal punishing is contrary to the notion of a forgiving god and infinitely exceeding the nature of the crime.

That is not for you to decide. God makes the rules and we obey them.

Without repentence, we don’t get to heaven. Repentence opens the door to forgiveness.

You want God to forgive without our repentence?

 

[Counterpoint]

“chirp” “chirp”

Counterpoint…the purpose is “JUSTICE”. Whats your proposal for the godless world with good/love/justice? You do see the illusion of ego you’ve created, no?

Apparently, we have two very different understandings of justice. As I see it, there is no temporal offense that justifies eternal punishment.

 

[Counterpoint]

For a bit further understanding, please consider Catechism #1057: “Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”

Does the Course share an understanding of why God created Hell?

No. There is no hell.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Apparently, we have two very different understandings of justice. As I see it, there is no temporal offense that justifies eternal punishment.

Again, that is not for you to decide.

A willful crime against the Eternal One, for which we do not repent, may well justify eternal separation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No. There is no hell.

And all the seats on the roller coaster of vice and habit are empty? It goes off the track now and again? No justice for murder, rape, robbery? The king of double standards.

Safe position, denial, there is no hell. And I say, yes there is?

 

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

Apparently, we have two very different understandings of justice. As I see it, there is no temporal offense that justifies eternal punishment.

Again, that is not for you to decide.

A willful crime against the Eternal One, for which we do not repent, may well justify eternal separation.

Rationality tells us that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment. Since I can clearly see this, then it logically follows that God can also.

 

[Counterpoint]

And all the seats on the roller coaster of vice and habit are empty? It goes off the track now and again? No justice for murder, rape, robbery? The king of double standards.

Safe position, denial, there is no hell. And I say, yes there is?

Eternal punishment and suffering for a temporal offense is not justice. It’s a mockery of justice. Rationality and our moral sensibilities tells us this much.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Rationality tells us that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment. Since I can clearly see this, then it logically follows that God can also.

Mans Death sentence is “forever”. Evidence is abundant. No-one came back,

 

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

Rationality tells us that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment. Since I can clearly see this, then it logically follows that God can also.

Mans Death sentence is “forever”. Evidence is abundant. No-one came back,

Your conception of God is a false one because it violates the dictates of reason.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Your conception of God is a false one because it violates the dictates of reason.

Say you who doesn’t believe in God and opts for the man god with faulty reasoning? And who is at fault brutally killing the prisoner in justice? Faulty logic.

 

[Alindawyl]

Eternal punishment and suffering for a temporal offense is not justice. It’s a mockery of justice. Rationality and our moral sensibilities tells us this much.

I agree that eternal punishment and suffering for a temporal offense is not justice.

But to say that those who are in hell are there because of something such as a temporal act of theft, or murder, or fornication, or bearing false witness, is not correct. They are there because, regardless of whatever temporal sin of grave matter they freely committed, they also freely refuse to repent for having done it and hold fast to that refusal for all of eternity.

Hell does not exist because of whatever it is the sinner refuses to repent from. It exists because of the eternal refusal to repent.

There are people in heaven who have murdered. There are people in heaven who have raped. There are people in heaven who have oppressed the poor. There are people in heaven who have sexually abused children. There are people in heaven who have committed any sin you can imagine. The only difference between the people in heaven and the people in hell is that the people in heaven have repented from their sins, and have voluntarily chosen for all of eternity to never sin again. The people in hell refuse to repent from their sins, and have voluntarily chosen for all of eternity to remain in their sins.

Eternal suffering and punishment for an eternal offense is perfectly just. Rationality and our moral sensibilities tell us this much.

 

[davidv]

Eternal punishment and suffering for a temporal offense is not justice. It’s a mockery of justice. Rationality and our moral sensibilities tells us this much.

How do you know that sin is a temporal offense?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Rationality tells us that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment. Since I can clearly see this, then it logically follows that God can also.

It’s not even clear to me that you believe in God? Do you? Are you a Christian, Deist, what?

Based on your logic you are saying also that no temporal virtue justifies eternal reward.

Then you don’t believe in heaven either as eternal reward because God would be illogical to grant it?

I’m curious how you equate the logic of God’s mind with the logic of your mind, when scripture makes it clear that in God’s mind heaven and hell are forever.

 

[jochoa]

No. There is no hell.

Interesting! However, this is another understanding, which leads me see that Catholicism completes the understandings of the Course. Here is my connection:

The Course shares simply that the way to Love is through forgiveness.

Therefore, if person A fully declares I will never want to forgive, nor will I ever forgive person B for B’s offence, then A has declared an eternal separation from Love. Since A will never do what is necessary to experience Love, A will forever exists in a state of no love (Hell).

A willful crime against the Eternal One, for which we do not repent, may well justify eternal separation.

Rationality tells us that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment. Since I can clearly see this, then it logically follows that God can also.

You are correct that no temporal offense justifies eternal punishment, but you are missing that “a willful crime against the Eternal One” is not a temporal offense, instead it is an eternal offense.

For example: If I was in the company of the Creator of Everything, and the Creator tells me, “I give you all-power to do anything you want.” And with all this power, I destroy the Creator of Everything, then I have committed an eternal offense, in which I am eternally separating myself from the Creator.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

 

[Counterpoint]

It exists because of the eternal refusal to repent.

You err in your thinking. The refusal to repent is temporal, not eternal. So, reason tells us the temporal offense of refusing to repent does not justify eternal punishment and suffering.

I
The only difference between the people in heaven and the people in hell is that the people in heaven have repented from their sins, and have voluntarily chosen for all of eternity to never sin again. The people in hell refuse to repent from their sins, and have voluntarily chosen for all of eternity to remain in their sins.

The capacity to repent is a grace…a gift of God. So, your argument tacitly assumes that the difference between the heaven-bound and hell-bound is that the former have been endowed by God with grace while the latter have not.

 

[davidv]

You err in your thinking. The refusal to repent is temporal, not eternal.

How do you know?

So, reason tells us the temporal offense of refusing to repent does not justify eternal punishment and suffering.

Unsound conclusion based on an unproven premise that the effect of unrepentence is temporal.

The capacity to repent is a grace…a gift of God.

Really? How do you know? Repentence is a capacity of the human will informed by its intellect.

So, your argument tacitly assumes that the difference between the heaven-bound and hell-bound is that the former have been endowed by God with grace while the latter have not.

Non sequiteur. All are provided sufficient grace to resist temptation or to repent. Those in hell have refused to use the grace provided.

 

[Counterpoint]

It’s not even clear to me that you believe in God? Do you? Are you a Christian, Deist, what?

I do believe in God. But I do not accept the traditional concept of God as portrayed by any of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, or Islam). By and large, the conception of God as portrayed in these religions offend my rational and moral sensibilities.

Based on your logic you are saying also that no temporal virtue justifies eternal reward.

I believe we are ‘saved’ (if that is the right word) by divine grace. (I also believe that salvation is a collaborative venture. That is, either all of us are saved, or none of us are.)

I’m curious how you equate the logic of God’s mind with the logic of your mind, when scripture makes it clear that in God’s mind heaven and hell are forever.

I believe God reveals himself to me via reason.