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Counterpoint
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Two questions:
- Is “self love?” (You seem to imply that is.)
- Who created man with the capacity to love himself?
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Counterpoint
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rcwitness
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Not sure what the question is. I guess I was short in this reply. When I say “self love”, I mean selfishness, or loving ourselves over our creator. We should love ourselves and our neighbors, but the love of Our Lord should be first. When we love the lord, our love for everything else is purified.
God created man in His own image. We have free will. Our will desires that which is from below. We either have a father from below or above. We were created subject to spiritual influence which already existed. God influences us to Himself, while the devil influences us to everything other than God. Those who choose a spirit other than God will be seperated from Him.
This is the purpose of hell, to seperate those who follow God’s Spirit from those who follow the Devil’s. Those who are put with their father, inherit the reward of their father.
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Counterpoint
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rcwitness
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Nate123
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Actually no it does not. Notice that the Catechism quotes the things from scripture. When it says “the unquenchable fire”, “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” or “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”. It not teaching something it rather quoting from something. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
“These two punishments (eternal and temporal) must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”
It is not something from God. There is no fire in hell.
"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state." (St. John Paul II, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory).
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Counterpoint
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Then CCC (like the Bible) is contradictory. Because CCC clearly teaches here that hell is a place where the lost suffer the punishments of “eternal fire.”
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Nate123
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Like I said it is quoting something and it not making an actual teaching. It is a common mistake and its not your fault. I see that you are fighting these ugly ideas that Catholics and Christians put out as “candy” and in actuality it is poison. The Catholic Church does not make these mistakes and when you keep searching you will find that the Catholic Church upholds the true God. I suggest you go to NewApologetics.com or their facebook page. They are faithful to the Magestrium of the Catholic Church while many Catholic Apologists make many mistakes.
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rcwitness
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Im not sure what you are trying to pursuade here, but if its that the Church does not Teach that hell has burning fire, you are mistaken.
Matthew 5:22
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
The definition of fire may be subject to speculation. Is it physical fire? Probably. What diference does it make? The anguish of a lost soul is equal to the physical pains of fire, perhaps even worse.
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Nate123
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Do you accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Did you know it teaches the hell is not from God:
“These two punishments (eternal and temporal) must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”(CCC 1472)
You said: “What difference does it make?”
I reply: There is a huge difference. A real physical fires implies that God is torching people for all eternity. This is poison and my friend is rejecting all the false ideas about God that people are trying to feed him. Yes hell is a state where someone chooses to separate themselves from God by their own free choice.
You said: “Is it physical fire? Probably.”
I reply: No it is not. The Catechism says hell is not from God. A “god” that tortures people for all eternity not worthy of love.
"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state." (St. John Paul II, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory)
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Vico
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GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday 28 July 1999
*Saint Pope John Paul II
*
:3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo_en.html
Wednesday 28 July 1999
*Saint Pope John Paul II
*
:3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo_en.html
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Nate123
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^ This guy gets it. AMEN!
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Counterpoint
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This not only contradicts the Scriptures, but it also contradicts the CCC.
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Nate123
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The Catholic Church is the sole interpreter of scripture. It does not contradict the Catechism.
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Counterpoint
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That only applies to those individuals who blindly believe whatever the Church teaches. (I am not one of those individuals.) And the papal letter clearly contradicts the CCC. (Do we need the Pope to interpret CCC for us too?)
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Nate123
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The Catholic Church put the bible together. Sure if you try to interpret it won’t make sense. But that is miss using it. Not your fault, its just the way it is.
You said: “And the papal letter clearly contradicts the CCC.”
I reply: Your simply wrong. I told you already when the catechism is quoting something it is not teaching directly on the matter. Pope John Paul II was one of the people who put the Catechism together! He knows what he is talking about. The Church teaches it is not from God. Know that their is no poison in there and you have been hearing the wrong things. Only a God that takes our suffering as his own is worthy of belief.
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Counterpoint
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Counterpoint
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I am biblically literate. So, I don’t need a private interpreter like you. Thank you very much.
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cornbread_r2
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From the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
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rcwitness
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I do accept the Catechism. I have stated that (what I understand to be Catholic Teaching) hell is the reward of those who follow their father below.
I accept this with all my heart. If I have contradicted this, I am sorry. But it has been my understanding long before this thread.
I probably should not have used this question, because you are right, there is a difference. Though my point is to acknowledge the incredible union we have from our very creation with God. We are like Him. Our very existance is sustained by Him… even in hell!. No? The terrifying reality of hell is this self destructive, self contradicting, and division of ourselves from the source of our peace, joy and nurishment. The torments are knowing in absolute truth who we really are, what we really have rejected, what we really love, and who has really influenced us. The very nature of God is to despise sin. He does have wrath and fury towards sin! So the soul whom remains in sin, in his heart is at terrible odds with God. God certainly does not desire this soul to be in conflict with Him,… so much so, that He became one of us in order to suffer against sin to the point of dying!
Again, we could debate the elements of hell, but I still will agree that Hell is not from God, yet everything in creation is from Him. Hell is the Lake of Fire which all who are at enmity with God are banished to. We also know that there is a resurrection for all. A resurrection unto death and a resurrection to life. So our physical bodies will be with us. We know that there is a type of physical pain where there is wailing and nashing of teeth. There is no protection from God. These souls are subject to their torments and their tormentors. Is God Himself tormenting them. No, I do not believe so.
In all these good refferences, we see the essence of what hell is. The agony and hopelessness of a human forever receiving what he has sought,… Corruption and enmity with his creator!
In Revelations we read:
Revelation 19:20: “And the beast[5] was taken, and with him the false prophet[6] that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
Revelation 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Revelation 20:14-15 “Then Death and Hades[7] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”[NKJV]
Revelation 21:8 “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”[8]
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