What's the Significance of Mary's Perpetual Virginity

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That is my sense of things too. Thus, I am having trouble understanding why the PVM is such a significant thing for Catholics, other than the fact that it is a belief that has been held for a long time.

If Christianity were a house of cards (sorry if it isn’t the best analogy), than it seems to me that the PVM “card” could be removed without affecting the rest of the structure at all. In other words, the house would still stand, it would not fall over. The PVM doesn’t seem to be foundational.
The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has a lot more to do with our salvation. We are speaking of who God is in his righteousness and who Mary is in her intimate relation to God as the personification of Daughter Zion. St. Luke draws a parallel between Mary and Israel in the angel’s greeting and words of assurance at the Annunciation by referring to the prophet Zephaniah (3:14-18). Mary is the bride of God from whom the Saviour shall come to redeem the world. Hence, Jesus addresses his mother by calling her, Woman (cf. Rev 12), a type of Israel: God’s virgin bride and most chaste spouse. As God’s possession, no man could ever touch her: The power of the Most High will overshadow you. A personal covenant had existed between God and Mary just as a covenant existed between God and his chosen people.

No more shall people call you, 'Forsaken,"
or your land “Desolate.”

Fear not, Mary, for you have found favour with God.

But you shall be called, “My Delight,”
and your land, “Espoused.”

Most blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.


For the Lord delights in you
and makes your land his spouse.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.


As a young man marries a virgin,
your Builder shall marry you;
and as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride
so shall your God rejoice in you.

Rejoice, O highly favoured daughter.
The Lord is with you.


Isaiah 62, 4-5

For the Lord has chosen Jacob,
Israel for his treasured possession.
Psalm 135, 4

PAX :heaven:
 
It doesn’t matter that it is not explicitly mentioned. Everthing recorded in Scripture is truth, but not all truth is recorded in Scripture.

In addition, most of the protestant reformers (Martin Luther and John Calvin among them) held the belief of Mary’s perpetual virginity. I’m not sure why the relatively recent doubt on this truth is so prevalent except for the fact that it didn’t fit someone’s particular, man-made theology.
When do we get to use a straight-forward reading of Scripture? Can we assume that God our Abba was kind enough to his children to make his Words clear? Although I understand the theological “truths” argued in this thread, it seems PV is not consistent with the following:

Matt 1:20 “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.”

Doesn’t the Church teach that husbands and wives conjugate or make valid their marriage through sexual intercourse? Was the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, Joseph) just a vehicle of doctrine,? Or are they supposed to be looked upon as a model of pure and true love for Christians to follow?

Is Jesus just our Savior? Or is he also our example? Was his family just the Holy Family, or was his family also a human example to follow?

My point is this… at what point is doctrine or “truth” more important than Christian unity? Should we sacrifice oneness for correct doctrinal “truth”? Or is it more important that we realize the real truth of Jesus’ life was to create love, forgiveness, unity and oneness among humans on earth?

What was the real reason God gave us His Scriptures? To know what to believe? Or to show us how to live?

I fear that “truth” is trumping the greatest virtue (non CC term): LOVE.

The splits in the Church–east and west, protestant and Catholic–have been caused by doctrinal and Scriptural arguments. The splits have caused many potential believers to reject the truths of Jesus’ teachings.

Can we try to acknowledge Jesus’ prayer in John? “May they be one so that the world may know You sent me.”

One billion Catholics (the majority of whom don’t practice all the rules, or correctly understand all of the “truths,” or live as Jesus lived.)

Almost one billion non-Catholics (the majority of whom don’t correctly understand all the truths, or live as Jesus lived.)

LET US ALL TRY TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.

Let us love Mary for what she did. Let us love Jesus for what he did. Let us love all believers, semi-believers, incorrect believers, non-believers, and haters for who they are: Children of God.

In constant prayer for His Body…
 
[SIGN]Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant Proved from Scripture[/SIGN]
The ark of the Old Covenant contained the words of God written on Stone. (Deut. 10:5, Hebrews 9:4)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, contained the Word of God made flesh. (John 1:1)
Jesus lives in NT believers does He not?
The ark of the Old Covenant contained the jar of manna which came down from heaven. Those who ate of this bread still died. (Exodus 16:32, Hebrews 9:4)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, contained Jesus, the bread of life which came down from heaven. Those who eat of this bread will live forever. (John 6:31-41)
You believe that Bread and Wine become Jesus which enters the catholic; what’s the difference.
The ark of the Old Covenant contained the staff of Aaron which had budded as proof as his priesthood. (Number 17:1-9) - Was it priesthood at the time or his authority?–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, contained Jesus, our high priest, Himself. (Hebrews 4:14)
The ark of the Old Covenant was overshadowed by the glory cloud. (Exodus 40:34-35)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:35)
Here’s some more verses about overshadowing: 1982 is Srong’s for (see below)

Mt 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed <1982> them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Mr 9:7 And a cloud came and overshadowed <1982> them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow < 1982> you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
Lu 9:34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed <1982> them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud.
Ac 5:15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on <1982> some of them.

The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea. (2 Sam. 6:1–11)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea. (Luke 1:39)
A man touched the ark of the Old Covenant to steady it without God’s permission and was struck dead on the spot. David was filled with awe and said, “Who am I that the Ark of the Lord should come unto me?” (2 Samuel 6:9)
–Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and said, “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?” (Luke 1:43)
The ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months. (2 Sam. 6:11)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark of the Old Covenant. (2 Sam. 6:11)
–In the account of Mary’s visit to Elizabeth, the word blessed is used three times; surely Elizabeth’s house was blessed by God. (Luke 1:39–45)
You have to admit God’s blessing on Elizabeth and her husband preceded Mary’s presence.
The ark of the Old Covenant returns home and ends up in Jerusalem, God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple. (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11)
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple. (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22)
How long did it take from the time Mary left Elizabeth’s to go to Jerusalem? A lot longer than it took for the ark to get to Jerusalem from Obed’s. Did Mary make her home in Jerusalem like the ark was ‘housed’ in Jerusalem?
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark of the Old Covenant. (2 Sam. 6:14)
–John the Baptist—of priestly lineage—leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. (Luke 1:41)
David was not a priest.
David shouts in the presence of the ark of the Old Covenant. (2 Sam. 6:15)
–Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary, the Ark of the Old Covenant. (Luke 1:42)
The ark of the Old Covenant disappeared, and no trace of it can be found anywhere on earth.
–Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, was assumed bodily into heaven by God at the end of her earthly life, and no trace of her can be found anywhere on earth.
From a vaporous cloud that casts a shadow the word is transferred to a shining cloud surrounding and enveloping persons with brightness. Used of the Holy Spirit exerting creative energy upon the womb of the virgin Mary and impregnating it (a use of the word which seems to have been drawn from the familiar OT idea of a cloud as symbolising the immediate presence and power of God)
1982 επισκιαζω episkiazo ep-ee-skee-ad’-zo

from 1909 and a derivative of 4639; TDNT-7:399,1044; v

AV-overshadow 5; 5
  1. to throw a shadow upon, to envelop in a shadow, to overshadow
 
So, from this passage, you conclude that Mary was a sinner, that she could not have been immaculately conceived and the Catholic Church was wrong to proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. If the Catholic Church is wrong on this dogma, then infallibility is disproved, and if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then why be Catholic?

Is that a fair summation?
Fair. However, I don’t think any church is infallible and I know I’m not infallible (not even close so it’s not even worth comparing me to any church). Because we are all fallible, I’m not anti-catholic.
 
Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant Proved from Scripture
Hmmm…refresh my memory. I know that scripture says the HS dwells within us…I must be suffering a mental block. 😦

However, your response has nothing to do with the parallel I posed.
You believe that Bread and Wine become Jesus which enters the catholic; what’s the difference.
We receive Jesus sacramentally; Jesus dwelled within Mary physically for nine months.
You have to admit God’s blessing on Elizabeth and her husband preceded Mary’s presence.
Which doesn’t really preclude the blessing in the passage I posted.
How long did it take from the time Mary left Elizabeth’s to go to Jerusalem? A lot longer than it took for the ark to get to Jerusalem from Obed’s. Did Mary make her home in Jerusalem like the ark was ‘housed’ in Jerusalem?
Irrelevant.
David was not a priest.
Exactly. Neither was Jesus, yet he wore a seamless garment similar to that of the priests. Why? Because He was a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

I posted, and you felt you HAD to respond somehow…heaven forbid a Catholic should post anything that you did not challenge. 😛

But seriously…these are non-answers.
 
Fair. However, I don’t think any church is infallible and I know I’m not infallible (not even close so it’s not even worth comparing me to any church). Because we are all fallible, I’m not anti-catholic.
Okay, so the Catholic Church can be proved to teach a false gospel based on Romans 3:23 which states that “all have sinned” which clearly means that every single person - all - who were ever born have committed personal sins.

Right? :yup:

Wrong! :nope:

Does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: **“**As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.
 
Hmmm…refresh my memory. I know that scripture says the HS dwells within us…I must be suffering a mental block. 😦

Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
-then there’s all the verses that says the Holy Spirit is in believers, thus Christ.

However, your response has nothing to do with the parallel I posed. Of course it does.

We receive Jesus sacramentally; Jesus dwelled within Mary physically for nine months. I thought it was literal and actual.

Which doesn’t really preclude the blessing in the passage I posted.

Irrelevant. Thanks for your opinion.

Exactly. Neither was Jesus, yet he wore a seamless garment similar to that of the priests. Why? Because He was a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

I posted, and you felt you HAD to respond somehow…heaven forbid a Catholic should post anything that you did not challenge. 😛 Come on, please. You know better than that.

But seriously…these are non-answers. I’m sure it hleps you believe what you do to think I’ve not given you good answers.
 
Hmmm…refresh my memory. I know that scripture says the HS dwells within us…I must be suffering a mental block. 😦

Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
-then there’s all the verses that says the Holy Spirit is in believers, thus Christ.
Ah, yes. Thank you.
However, your response has nothing to do with the parallel I posed.

I posted, and you felt you HAD to respond somehow…heaven forbid a Catholic should post anything that you did not challenge. 😛 Come on, please. You know better than that.

But seriously…these are non-answers. I’m sure it hleps you believe what you do to think I’ve not given you good answers.
Helps me? 🤷

It would help me (and you more) if you would actually take some time to reflect upon all that I post.
 
Thanks Randy for your comments below, they are helpful to me. 🙂
Your last paragraph is probably true, Sablouwho.

However, look at this from another perspective: if it were not for the fact that Protestants object incessantly to the perpetual virginity of Mary, Catholics wouldn’t spend so much time on the subject.

Consider this: Protestants probably spend very little time discussing the Virgin Birth amongst themselves except for an obligatory mention at Christmas time. The rest of the year…it’s just a given. Similarly, Catholics spend precious little time discussing the PVoM amongst themselves…it’s really just a given.

This forum, because of its very nature, tends to give the appearance that some subjects are more important than they really are.
 
Ah, yes. Thank you.

Helps me? 🤷

It would help me (and you more) if you would actually take some time to reflect upon all that I post.

How would you be helped?​

Have you wrestled with my side of the issue yet? Did you go to Scriptures for yourself for the answers or did you also read the CC explanation after which you made your decision?
 
Posted by Randy (Blue comments by Doki)

Okay, so the Catholic Church can be proved to teach a false gospel based on Romans 3:23 (nope, the whole Bible) which states that “all have sinned” which clearly means that every single person - all - who were ever born have committed personal sins.

Right :yup:

Does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.​

Wasn’t it Jesus that said no one was good but God?

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole. Why use hyperbole only when it helps your side of the argument?

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”. Could it be that ‘die’ refers to spiritual death? Jesus speaking of a sinful woman said she was dead while she lives. Jesus also said that because He was the ‘Resurrection and the Life’ believers would not die. Was Jesus mistaken or was He refering to spiritual death?

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: **“**As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Yes. There is a difference between doing righteous things and being righteous. We aren’t saved because we have any righteousness but because Jesus gives us His. Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous Sure, by faith, a faith that obeys. (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned. I guess they don’t need to be baptized.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions. So not all humans need the Blood of Jesus to get to Heaven?

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.
 
Posted by Randy (Blue comments by Doki)

Okay, so the Catholic Church can be proved to teach a false gospel based on Romans 3:23 (nope, the whole Bible) which states that “all have sinned” which clearly means that every single person - all - who were ever born have committed personal sins.

Right :yup:

Does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.​

Wasn’t it Jesus that said no one was good but God?

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole. Why use hyperbole only when it helps your side of the argument?

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”. Could it be that ‘die’ refers to spiritual death? Jesus speaking of a sinful woman said she was dead while she lives. Jesus also said that because He was the ‘Resurrection and the Life’ believers would not die. Was Jesus mistaken or was He refering to spiritual death?

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: **“**As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Yes. There is a difference between doing righteous things and being righteous. We aren’t saved because we have any righteousness but because Jesus gives us His. Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous Sure, by faith, a faith that obeys. (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned. I guess they don’t need to be baptized.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions. So not all humans need the Blood of Jesus to get to Heaven?

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.
Despite all your protests, you have not addressed the fact that infants and mentally incompetent people do not have the capacity to commit personal sins.

Therefore, “all” have not sinned, and this passage cannot be used to prove that Mary was a sinner and that the Catholic Church is fallible.
 
That is my sense of things too. Thus, I am having trouble understanding why the PVM is such a significant thing for Catholics, other than the fact that it is a belief that has been held for a long time.

If Christianity were a house of cards (sorry if it isn’t the best analogy), than it seems to me that the PVM “card” could be removed without affecting the rest of the structure at all. In other words, the house would still stand, it would not fall over. The PVM doesn’t seem to be foundational.
There are many other things that might seem as not important. Why not remove all Paul’s epistles and stick with the first person accounts of the gospels? 😉

The Catholic Church does not just invent dogma out of thin air. We are a servant to the Holy Spirit and if we get a deeper revelation - it has to be trusted and taught. In fact, by occasionally giving new dogmas God is demonstrating that the Holt Spirit is alive and well within the Catholic Church and is is the Lord of Divine Providence. If it was all mere human fabrication the easier thing to do would be to teach nothing at all new and cave into the current pressures to be “bible only” and then teach and spin anything anyone wanted to hear just to keep the pews full.

I am just waiting for some conspiracy theorists to claim that the Catholic Church invents dogmas just to prove she can. 😃

Next thing we will know is that the Catholic Church created all these protestant denominations just to discredit the reformers and say “I told you so” or else is really a secret silent partner in all the new Franchise Mega Christian Bible Churches. 😉

James
 
When do we get to use a straight-forward reading of Scripture? Can we assume that God our Abba was kind enough to his children to make his Words clear?
God has his reasons may-they-be-one. He does not want a church that is independent of its divinely appointed leadership. The OT has an entire oral teaching tradition that goes with the written word. This prevented the common Jew from interpreting it himself against the priestly teaching authority or for some mere man to steal some scrolls and teach him what was necessary to stage himself as a new prophet or messiah. The things Jesus did (like cursing the fig tree) were all in the oral traditions and were clear signs of messiah that no person outside of a few select rabbis with the memorized oral tradition would know about. It prevents fraud and it prevents hijacking of the priesthood.

The SAME principal applies in the NT. This is why the Catholic Church has the apostolic tradition and the handed down teachings. It prevents the Simon Magnus types from thinking the can hijack the church by mere possession of the bible by copying it or gaming salvation with magic words or false teachings.

Jesus was in a constant tension between the Pharisees from the very beginning when he met John the Baptist. Jesus started speaking in parables and in ways to confuse them in their knowledge and human errors if their knowledge since they were only trying to save themselves and not God’s people.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 13:10-16
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
**11Jesus answered them, "(G)To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. **

12"(H)For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while (I)seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘(J)YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15(K)FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16"(L)But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
*
 
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Randy_Carson:
Despite all your protests, you have not addressed the fact that infants and mentally incompetent people do not have the capacity to commit personal sins.

Therefore, “all” have not sinned, and this passage cannot be used to prove that Mary was a sinner and that the Catholic Church is fallible.​

Was Mary an infant when she gave birth to Jesus? Was Mary mentally incompetent? Then what’s your point?​

BTW, did Mary have original sin?
 
Despite all your protests, you have not addressed the fact that infants and mentally incompetent people do not have the capacity to commit personal sins.

Therefore, “all” have not sinned, and this passage cannot be used to prove that Mary was a sinner and that the Catholic Church is fallible.
No.
Was Mary mentally incompetent?
No.
Then what’s your point?
The point is that since we can point out examples of people who have not sinned which are so obvious that even non-Catholics will accept them, then we have to conclude that “all” have NOT sinned. Some have not committed personal sins. Since some exceptions exist, you cannot prove that Mary sinned using this verse because it is reasonable that Paul was not insisting that literally every single human being who was ever born was guilty of personal sins.
BTW, did Mary have original sin?
No.

Mary was saved by the blood of Jesus in a unique way. Here’s an analogy: I can save you from a pit into which you have already fallen by pulling you out…or I can save you from the pit by preventing you from falling into it in the first place.

You and I are saved when Jesus pulls us out of the sin into which we have fallen. Mary was saved when Jesus prevented her from inheriting sin from the moment of her conception.
 
I finally finished reading all the posts in this thread 😃

Although I can’t remember all I wanted to say, 3 things have stuck with me.
  1. There was a few posts that quoted Tertullian and Jerome. Tertullian as saying that Mary had kids, or was not a Perpetual Virgin; Jerome supporting that Mary was Perpetual Virgin. Well, I think everyone can agree that Jerome was a pretty smart guy, right? And we know that Jerome and Pope Damascus worked together compiling the New Testament. Are we to believe then that Jerome was not aware of all this “evidence” that was being included which goes against Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Especially those controversial passages which refer to the brother’s of Jesus?
  2. Speaking of Jesus’ siblings. IF He had any, wouldn’t it seem likely that they had kids, who had kids, etc. Lineage is very important to the Jewish people, yet I have never heard of any claims. Surely some of the Apostles or Early Church Fathers would have known of this. Was it all a big cover up, possible led by the Apostle John whom became Mary’s son at the foot of the cross?
  3. I am not a woman, but I was there when my first (second and third as well) child was born. It blew my mind, to say the least. Now I can imagine being Joseph. An Angel has appeared to me, explaining that Mary is going to conceive a son by the power of the Holy Spirit, his name will be Jesus, and he will save people from their sins. Now we can only speculate how much of this Joseph understood. Was this the Messiah foretold by God, or was this some other miracle of God. Either way, if I were Joseph (whom supposedly was already married and had kids), the last thing I would thinking about would be having intercourse with Mary.
Also, think about Mary (and maybe any ladies out there can back up my claims). Mary was a young girl, suddenly this Angel appears and tells her what is going to happen. Now almost everyone believes that Mary really was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not by Joseph. Imagine giving birth to the Son of God. Imagine raising him as your kid. You would constantly be reminded of the time that the Angel of the Lord appeared to you. Sexual relations with Joseph had to be the last thing on her mind. I am sure that if Joseph wanted to consummate the marriage, she would have, but as I stated above, I think this was also the farthest thing from Josephs mind.

Clearly this is all my opinion, but it is at least plausible. I know we live in a sex-filled world today, so it might be hard to fathom how two people could be married and not have sex, but if you knew what Mary and Joseph knew, would you have acted differently?

P.S. for those Sola Scriptura or Bible takes precedence over Tradition posters:
1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.
scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
 
I finally finished reading all the posts in this thread 😃

Although I can’t remember all I wanted to say, 3 things have stuck with me.


2. Speaking of Jesus’ siblings. IF He had any, wouldn’t it seem likely that they had kids, who had kids, etc. Lineage is very important to the Jewish people, yet I have never heard of any claims. Surely some of the Apostles or Early Church Fathers would have known of this. Was it all a big cover up, possible led by the Apostle John whom became Mary’s son at the foot of the cross?
This is a great point. Except for in Dan Brown’s fictional work “The DaVinci Code” I don’t think there is a single human alive who has ever come forward to declare himself a blood relative of Jesus. If we counted all the children Mary and Joseph would have had raised by reading the biblical text anachronistically as “literally brother/sister” in the contemporary sense they would have had over 25-30 children! That’s just nuts!

So where are these descendents of these blood siblings of Jesus at Protestants? 🤷
Did the Jews get em all?

:cricket-sounds:

James
 
This is a great point. Except for in Dan Brown’s fictional work “The DaVinci Code” I don’t think there is a single human alive who has ever come forward to declare himself a blood relative of Jesus. If we counted all the children Mary and Joseph would have had raised by reading the biblical text anachronistically as “literally brother/sister” in the contemporary sense they would have had over 25-30 children! That’s just nuts!

So where are these blood descendants of Jesus at Protestants? 🤷
Did the Jews get em all?

:cricket-sounds:

James
You mean Dan Browns books are not based on facts like the inside cover says :eek:
 
I finally finished reading all the posts in this thread 😃

Although I can’t remember all I wanted to say, 3 things have stuck with me.
  1. There was a few posts that quoted Tertullian and Jerome. Tertullian as saying that Mary had kids, or was not a Perpetual Virgin; Jerome supporting that Mary was Perpetual Virgin. Well, I think everyone can agree that Jerome was a pretty smart guy, right? There’s a lot of smart guys that don’t belief in God. What’s you point in light of this fact? And we know that Jerome and Pope Damascus worked together compiling the New Testament. Are we to believe then that Jerome was not aware of all this “evidence” that was being included which goes against Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Especially those controversial passages which refer to the brother’s of Jesus?
  2. Speaking of Jesus’ siblings. IF He had any, wouldn’t it seem likely that they had kids, who had kids, etc. Lineage is very important to the Jewish people, yet I have never heard of any claims. Surely some of the Apostles or Early Church Fathers would have known of this. Was it all a big cover up, possible led by the Apostle John whom became Mary’s son at the foot of the cross? Peter had a wife; I suppose we could conclude he had children; do we know of his lineage?
  3. I am not a woman, but I was there when my first (second and third as well) child was born. It blew my mind, to say the least. Now I can imagine being Joseph. An Angel has appeared to me, explaining that Mary is going to conceive a son by the power of the Holy Spirit, his name will be Jesus, and he will save people from their sins. Now we can only speculate how much of this Joseph understood. Was this the Messiah foretold by God, or was this some other miracle of God. Either way, if I were Joseph (whom supposedly was already married and had kids), the last thing I would thinking about would be having intercourse with Mary.
Also, think about Mary (and maybe any ladies out there can back up my claims). Mary was a young girl, suddenly this Angel appears and tells her what is going to happen. Now almost everyone believes that Mary really was a virgin (I do, until Jesus was born just as Matt 1:25 says) and that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit (I believe this too) and not by Joseph. Imagine giving birth to the Son of God. (I can’t) Imagine raising him as your kid. You would constantly be reminded of the time that the Angel of the Lord appeared to you. Sexual relations with Joseph had to be the last thing on her mind. (Are you a mind reader?) I am sure that if Joseph wanted to consummate the marriage, she would have, but as I stated above, I think this was also the farthest thing from Josephs mind. (again, are you a mind reader?)

Clearly this is all my opinion, but it is at least plausible. I know we live in a sex-filled world today, so it might be hard to fathom how two people could be married and not have sex, but if you knew what Mary and Joseph knew, would you have acted differently? (If sex within marriage is sinful, I guess I’d see things your way. In fact Paul may go as far as saying that not having sex with your spouse is sin – 1 Corinthians 7:1ff)
 
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